Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I'll try to frame this without too much meandering with examples:
Example: Cradle of Filth were a massive band at one stage and suddenly became a dirty word amongst many of the people who had initially vaunted them.
Iron Maiden: No Prayer for the Dying. Widely regarded as a poor follow up to Seventh Son. It was definitely a time and a place issue for this album, but removing yourself from that whole rigmarole and allowing yourself to listen without prejudice, it's actually a really strong album with great performances throughout.
Wasted Years(Maiden song) Bruce says he didn't like it and people latch onto that. As a kid I never distinguished.
Zepellin: The Crunge. Very typical for music journos to do this song down in any retrospective. It just seems like they all sing off the same hymnsheet, and yet if I'd never read a word on the album I'd never even have noticed.
Something that I've encountered again and again over the years as a music listener(and not just in metal).
It annoys my bollox when someone comes out with these types of tropes(I'm not sure if my use of the word trope is correct here: preconceived notions I suppose)..am I the only one?
I suppose what I'm saying is if you already have your mind made up how are you ever going to enjoy something or allow yourself to approach it with an open mind. I've dismissed albums for no good reason in the past and later found them to be perfectly fine listens when I moved beyond allowing myself to be told what to like and not to like.
Good topic. That said, The Crunge is the worst song from Zeppelin's entire catalogue. I didn't know that when I first heard it, but that was only because I hadn't yet heard their entire catalogue at the time :laugh:
:laugh: get out of that garden!
The song itself is something light, a departure. But, from my perspective that song fits perfectly within the flow of the album. I would actually say that it's probably THE perfect album for me in terms of flow in terms of mood, colour etc. If we had had an album of all No Quarters, I don't think its appeal would have endured.
It's something the older bands like Sabbath, Priest, Yes and others were very good at. Serious songs, heavy songs, rockers, but interspersed with lighter, sometimes even humorous moments. And I think it's why we love a lot of them old albums. It was a different recording approach I suppose too, with more emphasis on album rather than single.songs.
More so in the past I would have been more susceptible to that sort of influence but as I've been listening to this stuff for such a long time and have figured out what works for me and what doesn't, and the more I narrow my focus on what I like, the less I find myself interested in outside perceptions. It probably comes with age and experience but there are some brilliant albums that have been written off for not being current or cool, but I find myself often more turned off by current trends these days. I tend to find the effect to be almost the inverse scenario of the proposal above in that the more I listen to hyped new bands the more I find myself disappointed with how ordinary it is. But then again, I'm way more focused on the second wave of BM and early doom/ doom death these days, which are two deep reservoirs to keep me occupied away from most of what is being made currently. That said, I might find my interest turning back to more modern sounds in a few years time if something catches my ear. Apart from reading ZT on the jacks I tend not to read reviews any more, and I'm the better for it.
No Prayer was a bad follow uo
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Iron Maiden: No Prayer for the Dying. Widely regarded as a poor follow up to Seventh Son. It was definitely a time and a place issue for this album, but removing yourself from that whole rigmarole and allowing yourself to listen without prejudice, it's actually a really strong album with great performances throughout.
Wasted Years(Maiden song) Bruce says he didn't like it and people latch onto that. As a kid I never distinguished.
Nah, No Prayer is a bit crap with a few good tracks sprinkled in, and I came to it without any idea of how it was perceived. I heard a few Maiden songs, liked them, and picked whatever they had in the second hand cd shop, and thought NPFTD was by far the worst one
Wasted Years though, is pure class
Fair enough and that's a taste thing. I suppose something that would get on my wick would be if someone only listened to it a few times and chimed in with the same old tired argument that I've read in countless magazines and retrospectives: there was in fighting, new guitarist etc etc...yawn! I've personally listened to it hundreds upon hundreds of times and while I definitely get some reservations about it, it certainly does not deserve to be one of the lowest albums in an 'Iron Maiden albums rated' list, by some blue haired twat who only started listening to them 4 years ago.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I used to, certainly. I used to read Metal Hammer religiously as a teenager (say 1994 to 1999), at a time when they had a massive hard on for commercial/nu-metal. I wish I kept some of their old reviews, cause they were, in retrospect, so completely wide of the mark. I remember one particular issue where they gave the second Korn album a glowing review and using it as an opportunity to lambast older metal bands which they considered to be outdated. Looking back, I probably avoided black metal based solely on Metal Hammers attitude to that particular genre. It's hilarious to think now that this was a magazine pushing the likes of Coal Chamber, while completely dismissing Emperor.
a trope is a meme viewed externally; so the meme is a mental construct that lives or dies in the mind of one person or has a life cycle within a social group.
the meme 'mugz is a dick' is a successful meme in the metal warfare social environment, but the trope is 'there's always a few awkward, annoying cunts in every scene.'
in relation to the thread topic, it's interesting to note that as the social environment of recorded music dies, as vinyls start to fade out again, as the young people start to move away from music, a lot of the persistent 'this is this, that is that' memes in the metal subculture are fading away too.
the cradle of filth one is a great example- so easy to loathe but artistically they never did anything wrong in their own terms, they just attracted annoying fans from 97-02, but their actual art of being cradle of filth and releasing a certain kind of music was still pretty spot on.
Nicely put and definitely what I'm getting at.
Quote from: John Kimble on July 16, 2020, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I used to, certainly. I used to read Metal Hammer religiously as a teenager (say 1994 to 1999), at a time when they had a massive hard on for commercial/nu-metal. I wish I kept some of their old reviews, cause they were, in retrospect, so completely wide of the mark. I remember one particular issue where they gave the second Korn album a glowing review and using it as an opportunity to lambast older metal bands which they considered to be outdated. Looking back, I probably avoided black metal based solely on Metal Hammers attitude to that particular genre. It's hilarious to think now that this was a magazine pushing the likes of Coal Chamber, while completely dismissing Emperor.
a lot of the 'rock journalists' at that point were quite quaint, and now Emperor sounds quaint, so it goes a bit weird
Quote from: John Kimble on July 16, 2020, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I used to, certainly. I used to read Metal Hammer religiously as a teenager (say 1994 to 1999), at a time when they had a massive hard on for commercial/nu-metal. I wish I kept some of their old reviews, cause they were, in retrospect, so completely wide of the mark. I remember one particular issue where they gave the second Korn album a glowing review and using it as an opportunity to lambast older metal bands which they considered to be outdated. Looking back, I probably avoided black metal based solely on Metal Hammers attitude to that particular genre. It's hilarious to think now that this was a magazine pushing the likes of Coal Chamber, while completely dismissing Emperor.
And I would wonder if the reverse is true also. Yes, the magazine was ridiculously anti the likes of Emperor..you'd swear a lot of the Norwegian stuff didn't even exist. And yet I'd say interesting bands like the Wildhearts would be widely disregarded by plenty, for having been lauded by the very same magazine. I hated them for the interviews but really came to enjoy their music many years later.
Quote from: mugz on July 16, 2020, 01:39:24 PM
Quote from: John Kimble on July 16, 2020, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I used to, certainly. I used to read Metal Hammer religiously as a teenager (say 1994 to 1999), at a time when they had a massive hard on for commercial/nu-metal. I wish I kept some of their old reviews, cause they were, in retrospect, so completely wide of the mark. I remember one particular issue where they gave the second Korn album a glowing review and using it as an opportunity to lambast older metal bands which they considered to be outdated. Looking back, I probably avoided black metal based solely on Metal Hammers attitude to that particular genre. It's hilarious to think now that this was a magazine pushing the likes of Coal Chamber, while completely dismissing Emperor.
a lot of the 'rock journalists' at that point were quite quaint, and now Emperor sounds quaint, so it goes a bit weird
Too easy to fall into that trap. There's stuff recorded in the 50's and 60's all.the way through to now that has so much energy and raw passion that it goes beyond any time and place.
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You keep talking like that and I'm going to start talking you and Astfgyl or whatever his name is having the hots for eachother :abbath:
Lets stay on track
Jesus fucking christ, you're older, we all are, that's what happens, can there be one thread without a commentary on your midlife crisis or breaking every single thing down to a specific moment of time?
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Quote from: mugz on July 16, 2020, 01:58:26 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 01:51:41 PM
You keep talking like that and I'm going to start talking you and Astfgyl or whatever his name is having the hots for eachother :abbath:
Lets stay on track
well, once you frame things in terms of tropes and memes, you're automatically fecked discussion-wise, but as far as it goes, the metal dresscode always irked me, or the rule of being rude to 'outsiders' or normies, the long hair rule, the rule of forced alcohol intake, that if something's loud it must be heavy, that Motorhead is cool, that Lemmy epitomised 'metal' etc
there's a few for you
That sociology degree you did is coming back to haunt us all. I was talking more about actual songs and albums but I probably should have stated that initially. But you're right in that the wider outside influences are what often hinder our enjoyment of what should be a perfectly decent song or album.
Just as an aside, I remember the mags fawning over Emperor for the release of Prometheus and getting live posters around the time of Emperial Live Ceremony from one of them.
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Here's an annoying trope for you: "if it's older, it's better."
I think we've seen plenty of recent bands show that there are still depths only hinted at by the first wave of X, Y and Z. Sure, there are plenty of groups only scratching and replicating the surface with more or less nuance, but there are enough others identifying points of entry and diving to previously unexplored musical zones; Vektor spring to mind, but also Artificial Brain, Chthe'ilist, Howling Sycamore, Gospel of the Witches, Howls of Ebb, Morbus Chron/Sweven, Cryptic Shift, and sure while we're at it Malthusian too.
More generally, there is and always has been a tendency for certain metal fans to build part of their identity on which much-loved-of-others bands they hate and the various ways they can articulate this. Let this be said once and for all; what you are or are not into says almost nothing about who you are next to how you manifest what you are or not into.
Roots is a great example of an album that could be seen in 2 completely different lights.
1. A band experimenting and pushing out beyond the confines of the 'limitations' of their genre.
2. A band changing their sound to capture a wider audience.
I personally think there was an element of 2 at play, which is something that any established artist probably wrestles with, but, that said, I would tend to veer towards number 1. Chaos AD another example of an album that is much derided in certain circles, and while I adore Beaneath the Remains, Arise decent too, I can see how a band would want to change after what was a handful of albums of similar-ish style up to Chaos. Pared back, simpler riffs etc, but it was something to behold as a young lad, and a really enjoyable listen still, once you do some mindfulness meditation and release all those preconceptions that are holding you back..at least that's what Oprah said about it.
So you literally have to BECOME your favourite album? Do mean simply to emulate every facet of its concept or to literally become a vinyl, tape or CD? I can already see a few roadblocks, even in this age of transwhateverism, and that's not even touching on downloaders. But I'm in! Let's give it a go.
Replying to BSC of course.
The Third Metalhead
:laugh:
:laugh:
The discovery of heavier stuff is as a result of Nu metal becoming mainstream so it wasnt a complete disaster of a genre. Certainly there was more bad than good but the likes of Slipknot, killswitch etc still hold a place in my playlist as I simply see them as great heavy bands.
Agreed what a poster said before, when I discovered Black Metal I was hooked from the first opening riff of Chasing Dragons by 1349 and haven't looked back. I'd listened to plenty of cannibal corpse etc and loved it but theres something about black metal music that appeals to me.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Do you find yourself dismissing an album or a band because of a review or a commonly held belief with your peers or within the wider listening community?
I'll try to frame this without too much meandering with examples:
Example: Cradle of Filth were a massive band at one stage and suddenly became a dirty word amongst many of the people who had initially vaunted them.
Iron Maiden: No Prayer for the Dying. Widely regarded as a poor follow up to Seventh Son. It was definitely a time and a place issue for this album, but removing yourself from that whole rigmarole and allowing yourself to listen without prejudice, it's actually a really strong album with great performances throughout.
Wasted Years(Maiden song) Bruce says he didn't like it and people latch onto that. As a kid I never distinguished.
Zepellin: The Crunge. Very typical for music journos to do this song down in any retrospective. It just seems like they all sing off the same hymnsheet, and yet if I'd never read a word on the album I'd never even have noticed.
Something that I've encountered again and again over the years as a music listener(and not just in metal).
It annoys my bollox when someone comes out with these types of tropes(I'm not sure if my use of the word trope is correct here: preconceived notions I suppose)..am I the only one?
I think discovering metal (and music in general) of my own accord (in terms of both influence and time) has meant that most of this sort of stuff is pure bollocks to me.
Cradle - Dusk is a fucking classic, one of the moodiest metal records I've ever heard. Wasted Years - my favourite Maiden song. Zeppelin to me are one of those sort of "beginner" bands - they're amazing as they're probably the first like it you hear, but when you delve deeper they're pretty shit. I do think No Prayer is a stinker though. I'd go so far as saying it's their worst album with Bruce, especially when it followed a stone cold classic.
Quote from: mugz on July 16, 2020, 01:58:26 PMthe metal dresscode always irked me, or the rule of being rude to 'outsiders' or normies, the long hair rule, the rule of forced alcohol intake, that if something's loud it must be heavy, that Motorhead is cool, that Lemmy epitomised 'metal' etc
This kind of attitude annoys me and speaks more about your own insecurities rather than any shortcomings in the metal scene itself. Look, there's an image associated with metal, there has been since it emerged as a genre in its own right decades ago. You don't have to subscribe to every single aspect of it, just pick and choose the bits you like. Like, I've never worn a bullet belt in my entire life, and I'd look like a twat if I did...but I don't particularly want to go to a Gospel of the Horns gig and see a bunch of blokes on stage dressed like an Oasis covers band. There's plenty of heavy bands doing the whole anti-image thing, so it's not like it's not out there. I just don't get this whole coming onto a metal forum and constantly giving out about metal-shtick.
Classic case of wimposerism.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 03:10:12 PM
Roots is a great example of an album that could be seen in 2 completely different lights.
1. A band experimenting and pushing out beyond the confines of the 'limitations' of their genre.
2. A band changing their sound to capture a wider audience.
I personally think there was an element of 2 at play, which is something that any established artist probably wrestles with, but, that said, I would tend to veer towards number 1. Chaos AD another example of an album that is much derided in certain circles, and while I adore Beaneath the Remains, Arise decent too, I can see how a band would want to change after what was a handful of albums of similar-ish style up to Chaos. Pared back, simpler riffs etc, but it was something to behold as a young lad, and a really enjoyable listen still, once you do some mindfulness meditation and release all those preconceptions that are holding you back..at least that's what Oprah said about it.
Definitely #2 to the fore there (Roots), with an element of the experimentation approach.
With Chaos AD, they'd just toured with Ministry the year before and I remember - when Territory came out before the album - thinking that their (Ministry's) sound had rubbed off on them. Whether that was riding the industrial metal wave or an experimental push, I don't know but Chaos AD is more of a stylistic shift than Roots IMO. Both perfectly good albums too, even if the latter is overlong.
No Prayer
is shite though. Pub rock bollocks.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 12:50:47 PM
I suppose what I'm saying is if you already have your mind made up how are you ever going to enjoy something or allow yourself to approach it with an open mind. I've dismissed albums for no good reason in the past and later found them to be perfectly fine listens when I moved beyond allowing myself to be told what to like and not to like.
I was awful for this in my early days of listening to metal. I passed over so many quality albums for years based on shite I had read in Terrorizer or on forums. Suffocation - Breeding The Spawn, Darkthrone - anything past 'Transilvanian Hunger', Angelcorpse - Of Lucifer and Lightning, anything past 'Nightfall' for Candlemass...
I think it's normal enough to a degree. You will find a certain critic or forum member who generally steers you right and begin to take their word as gospel, which is fine in the beginning for laying a good bit of groundwork, particularly regarding the classics. As you get older and have a few more quid to spend and you have a better understanding of your own tastes over the long term, you can start to fill in the gaps. You also realise that just because something is labelled a classic, it can still be total shite to your own ear. Age, confidence, wisdom and a bit of long in the tooth grumpiness is a good thing.
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Chaos AD had the right balance at the time being still rooted in their thrash/death background, but bringing in more diversity from punk, industrial, and some tribal sounds without being cloyingly TRIBAL ROOTS MUSIC UBER ALLES which is what Roots ended up being IMO. And there were far too many guest appearances which can be the sign of album rot.
Yep, Chaos was a band hitting their peak, maybe not in terms of raw aggression or musicianship or even passion, but it had that element of maturity that allowed them to hone a lot of what they had already built and channel it very effectively. Now that type of thing certainly doesn't float many older fans' boats and it is definitely them 'knowing' what appeals and what doesn't.
Put it this way: Arise is great, Schizophrenia too, but to capture a wider audience they needed something with more pizazz, more modern. The cover looked amazing, the themes of the songs talked to people, 'Pavilhao nove' all that raised fist stuff, a kind of metal Clash in many ways. It was SJW before SJW ever existed.
Roots, by contrast, was fairly winky wanky woo, though in a strange way the world might be a less interesting place without it. The album art was beautiful, the idea was there, but the execution was fairly poor.
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I got killed for this before but I'll say it again, Chaos AD is their best album. Closely followed by Arise. Roots is awful muck
Perfectly reasonable thing to say. It was a massive album.
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Quote from: mugz on July 16, 2020, 10:21:47 PM
I agree about negative identity stuff back in the day with metal fans, but if you were directing it specifically at me which maybe you weren't
Nope, not directed specifically at anyone here. Just always found it a bit sad when people held themselves in a kind of "I'm cool because of what I don't like, and if you like it you're pathetic" manner. There's a rake of bands who are usual suspect targets of the behavior.
And Beneath The Remains is Sepultura's most enduring album. Roots aged badly, but in terms of them going for commercial appeal with it, I was never totally sold on that being the case. Brazil is such an open society culturally that I don't think the more typically "western" mode of dividing pop from metal holds there. Was their decision to incorporate more of their indigenous influences really so different to Irish metal bands who have done the same with folk? What is disparaged simply because it gets the label "tribal", again, it just doesn't make sense in the same way when you know the street music culture there is built around those rhythmic styles being an inherent part of life, with spontaneous community percussion jams, etc. Still though, when I listen to it now, it just doesn't connect, and Chaos, like Arise, is front loaded and then patchy. Beneath The Remains is a solid monument from start to finish. To these admittedly very white ears anyway.
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Roots is a lot of things, but a commercial grab ain't one of them. It's absolutely sprawling and there's no one fixed style to any of it.
I loved it when I was younger precisely because it was just a smorgasbord of sounds. Might root (heh) it out over the weekend and see how I feel about it all this time later.
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Ya, very few redeeming factors about Roots. Artwork is indeed beautiful. More or less love everything up to that point.
I've gone down the CoF nostalgia route this morning. Vempire on now. Loved them until I saw them at Tattoo the Planet and just couldn't listen to them after that.
Quote from: ochoill on July 17, 2020, 12:26:17 AM
I got killed for this before but I'll say it again, Chaos AD is their best album. Closely followed by Arise.
I'd go with that too, Chaos was the first album I got from them so that's always going to be a factor in my favouritism
I think a big problem I have with Roots is that it's just far too long, there's absolutely no need for 16 songs and over an hour long, could easily have trimmed a load off. I'd have kept all the tribal/acoustic songs though, spread them out a bit more, similar to the European metal bands that have folk style interludes, like BSC said
Back to the original topic, I ignored black metal for years because of the cliche that it the recording quality is so shit its near unlistenable. The upside of that is when I did end up hearing some stuff I liked there was a whole new genre to explore
Quote from: mugz on July 17, 2020, 01:43:02 AM
well Brazil is a cultural and genetic stew, so 'whiteness' isn't a barrier to anything
That was a joke...
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-14-2015/4mIwuD.gif)
There are good, even great songs, later into Chaos and Arise, but there are also some non-events. Personally, I don't find this to be the case with Beneath the Remains.
It's hard to beat the Heart of Darkeness/jungle fever of Beneath the Remains. Just an utterly savage album from start to finish. Relentless. Great points above about Roots. I think too often we get stuck in this 'commercialising' idea. Seps were already massive. If anything Roots alienated a lot of their fanbase. Must give it another listen.
Ok another cliche that is probably the greatest metal cliché of all is the Justice mix. Now, I'm not saying the mix doesn't exist or it's not completely different. What I would say, again, is that before I knew anything about mixes or what a bass guitar does, or even having the hearing capability to distinguish these things, the album just sounded amazing to me.
The thought did cross my mind that maybe I'm just nostalgic and harkening for the sounds of my youth but I don't think so. If it wasn't talked about so endlessly in reviews and retrospective articles, I would wager half the people who own the album would never have noticed. But when everything you read begins by talking about the mix, then it spawns a monster of its own.
Or maybe I'm talking shite? Still sounds perfect to me though.
Justice is my favourite album so I agree.
The only problem I have with Justice is it's the first album where Hetfield starts "cool" drawling the vocals here and there. If there's a sin that ludicrous band in shades photo hints at, it's that rather than an unusual mix, which never took away from my enjoyment of it.
Hetfield was trying to find a way to sing and I'm not sure when he started lessons etc but certainly by the Black album that was the major change. On the Year and a Half videos Bob Rock basically brings out a whole new way of singing that I hadn't really associate with Justice..must give it a buzz. The oohs and aahhs were a kind of way to make up for his lack of range etc, and place a distinct, unmistakable mark on him.
Unfortunately it spawned a monster and now we have Papa Het and all that corny shite.
I gave Roots a quick flick there this morning and I still like the vast majority of it.
If anything, it's biggest problem seems to be its pacing - having Jasco and Istari right next to each other and in the back end of the album too. And I always remember thinking Dictatorshit was slapped on as a bonus track as it feels like the album could've ended before it and boom, there it goes, plus it would've had more impact in the first third of the album.
My own favourites are Arise, Beneath the Remains and Chaos AD in that order. I honestly don't rate the first two (they're interesting from a formative perspective at least) and I'm in the "Greene era has been consistently good to great without being classic, but how many classics do most bands have in them anyway, it's hardly his fault" camp.
"Recorded to 2" tape" is a current cool underground trend/ virtue signal that fills me with trepidation. Oh, they are recoding to tape, they must be good! The same 20 year olds who "only listen to 80s metal!". Gimps.
That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!
Completely agree with Andy on both points above.
Gonna lash on Roots later. Prometheus yesterday and now Vempire and Cruelty today have been very rewarding revisits. That said, I was really into them when I was younger, was never really into Roots.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 17, 2020, 10:44:48 AM
That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!
Yeah I didn't think much of Against but thought it was passible in the sense that the band could've just as easily called it quits without Max; very much the sound of a band in turmoil. And as you say, Max leaving removed a lot of what people don't like about Roots from the band.
I think the Greene era took a few albums to really get going, but everything in the last 15 years has been well worth it. In fact Quadra from only this year is a cracker.
Kisser is probably one of the most consistent players in the genre and Cassagrande is as creative and powerful as Igor in his prime. I get that they don't sound like classic Sepultura, but that's okay as they're not the same band but they're still making music on their own terms.
https://youtu.be/vV4t9vnuhLM
Listening to Roots here and it's nothing if not unique. For me Sepultura brought something to metal that has never been replicated. Now bear with me, if we look a lot of metal, much of the newer stuff included, it appeals to a certain look, a certain feel. For me the satan stuff felt old even in the 90's. It amazes me that bands like Gorgoroth, Watain, Behemoth and these types of bands are seen as edgy when, for me, it's simply more of the same old thing being rehashed. BUT, that's a taste thing and there is certainly some outstanding music and albums that have been done in that vein. In many ways, it is what metal is and we're never getting away from it.
Maybe, I'm just a contrarian and that's why I was drawn to bands from Florida like Cynic and Atheist, Death, MA even. Seps hit that sweet spot..something found somewhere in the mid-Atlantic. Bands with a little less Europe in them, but not too much Murica in them either. I think a metal band that could capture THAT(whatever that is) could easily be huge again.
I am in the middle of Ratamahatta. Def unique. haha. It's essentially a big mess of an album and I can't see myself going back anytime soon but it's grand. More of a Soulfly album than a Sepultura album.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 17, 2020, 10:44:48 AM
That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!
😂 No problem, I agree with you on Choke.
For me, Against was weak and Nation was even worse, all the bad parts of Roots but few of the (admittedly sparse) good bits, and I can understand why people turned off. They found something with Roorback, though, which I rate without saying it's a great album. They stopped trying to be latter-era Max Sepultura, moved on, took some bold musical chances and started a series of albums, some of which I would rank higher than much of the Max stuff. Dante XXI and Machine Messiah are up with BTR for me, albums where every song is essential to the whole. Quadra feels like another one but it's too soon to say with certainty. Dante, in particular, where they used french horn and cello on a good few songs, is a great creative statement, that album blew me away when it came out because it doesn't sound like anything else, especially old Sepultura. It doesn't sound like Max era but, as far as I'm concerned, who would want a band to sound the same all the time? It has been done and done well. Nobody, including any version of Sepultura, is going to do a better BTR than the original so why bother sticking to that sound or retreading that old ground? Greene era Seps is like current era Voivod, for me. They don't sound like the old days but they have enough of the old sound and vibe while still finding fresh and creative avenues to explore, this late into their careers, which keeps me in my happy place.
For what it's worth, I fucking loved Sepultura when I came across them with BTR, saw them on that tour and they were fucking immense. I love the Max era, excluding Roots which is a fucking shitshow, let's be honest. Since that, he has been fucking pathetic but, in his youth, he was peerless.
I an happy all versions if the band have existed, we are richer for all of their efforts
Right, no more messing around. Time to listen to Dante and Machine Messiah on that recommendation.
Fair play. The only thing I would say is to try to hear them as contemporary metal albums, not Max Sepultura albums and you should, hopefully, find much to enjoy in them :)
Yes, I'm really going to have to push through the vocals here because that style would normally see me reaching for the skip button. Listening to Phantom Self here, cool tune.
To expand on Juggz saying that the newer stuff doesn't sound like Max era - I'd be pretty pissed if the old lineup was still together and they were pumping out lesser versions of their older albums.
Love it or loathe it, Steps have been making music on their own terms and I applaud them for (to go full circle with the thread) for not bowing to pressure. Again, Kisser seems to come up with as many cool riffs as he has morning pisses and Cassagrande is that type of musician that makes me think "I'll never be that good".
Edit - was gonna fix my typo, but left it for comedic effect :abbath:
Was thinking these lads must be Yes fans with that album title and then hearing Iceberg Dances. I knew they were Rush fans and there's definitely a nice smell of Vapor Trails era Rush off some of the stuff. This album might just be what I'm looking for tbh. Quick google reveals Kisser a massive Yes fan and the album title a dedication..fuck yes!
To stay on Sepultura and somewhat on topic, I remember around the time of Roots Metal Hammer were bigging them up as the sort of culmination of metal, the best of the best. The early stuff by them was sort of presented as a bit amateurish, slightly embarrassing.
I bought a 2cd version of Roots which had old demos, live tracks etc on it. By far the track which intrigued me the most, which I felt drawn to was a demo of Necromancer, off Morbid Visions. But because I believed the old stuff was supposed to be a bit shit I didn't follow up on that moment of clarity until much much later.
Seps a prime example of a band that got worse with each release. Arise the last good one. That's objective fact lads!
The first two albums to my ears are amateurish though.
I think they're great as well. Different buzz but rabid SA metal.
Quote from: Ducky on July 17, 2020, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 17, 2020, 10:44:48 AM
That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!
Yeah I didn't think much of Against but thought it was passible in the sense that the band could've just as easily called it quits without Max; very much the sound of a band in turmoil. And as you say, Max leaving removed a lot of what people don't like about Roots from the band.
I think the Greene era took a few albums to really get going, but everything in the last 15 years has been well worth it. In fact Quadra from only this year is a cracker.
Kisser is probably one of the most consistent players in the genre and Cassagrande is as creative and powerful as Igor in his prime. I get that they don't sound like classic Sepultura, but that's okay as they're not the same band but they're still making music on their own terms.
https://youtu.be/vV4t9vnuhLM
Abolutely no interest in that style of metal regardless of who is playing it. His vocals sound cool for the first bit though. Very Jaz Coleman.
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Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 17, 2020, 10:43:55 AM
"Recorded to 2" tape" is a current cool underground trend/ virtue signal that fills me with trepidation. Oh, they are recoding to tape, they must be good! The same 20 year olds who "only listen to 80s metal!". Gimps.
Agree with both of these. The second point in particular is something that I've seen spread in the last few years. The same spas are the ones that go on about posers and being true and all that shite while ironically being the biggest posers of all.
Ghost are a fine example. When the demo came out there were lads foaming at the gash all over the place, but they quickly got popular beyond what anyone could have imagined, even with the first album, and suddenly were not so kvlt anymore. The thread on the old forum was gas.
Foaming at the gash :laugh:
Fizzing at the gip.
Quote from: Juggz on July 17, 2020, 03:32:49 PM
Ghost are a fine example. When the demo came out there were lads foaming at the gash all over the place, but they quickly got popular beyond what anyone could have imagined, even with the first album, and suddenly were not so kvlt anymore. The thread on the old forum was gas.
The same people probably still cream themselves over Uncle Acid and Tribulation, they aren't that different to Ghost.
They all use guitars and drums alright.
And vocals. The bastards.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 16, 2020, 01:51:41 PM
You keep talking like that and I'm going to start talking you and Astfgyl or whatever his name is having the hots for eachother :abbath:
Lets stay on track
How the fuck did I get to be involved in this? Seriously like. I only answer his posts as I might do anybody else's. I don't mind him or anything but no need to bring me into it when he starts getting belligerent.
Good topic though. A band I always hated without giving a chance to was Radiohead but I'm after getting well into them lately. White Zombie was another one back in the day that I hated on sight. Metallica was another one I hated without ever hearing a full album. There are loads of them that I've come around to in later years that I abhorred without foundation. The Wildhearts were mentioned that's another and also Tool and funniest of all for me Nine Inch Nails who I had decided were shit back in 1994 for the crime of not being Nirvana. I listen to NIN pretty much constant for the last 20 years.
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Well give us a fucking example instead of talking shite ffs. You said nothing is relevant anymore. What actually IS then? The off topic forum is one thing but homestly I'm sick of talking about the same old shite that infests everything else I open, so a bit of a chat about different albums is the reason I'm on a metal forum. And it's banter, it's absolutely not personal. I'm sure you're a decent guy, we'd get on grand, but you're hijackibg threads with reams of stuff that is not relevant. That's all it is.
Edit. Nevermind. I'm worse for allowing myself to get drawn in...
Quote from: Pedrito on July 17, 2020, 09:04:16 PM
Well give us a fucking example instead of talking shite ffs. You said nothing is relevant anymore. What actually IS then?
Well there's what's actually relevant, and then what they want you think is relevant. I think you might have an idea, but it's a few levels below what I know. I could try and explain it but I'm not sure people are ready to hear the truth
Fuck never thought about it like that :laugh:
Ah jayziz Mugz, tis all a bit of banter, but you do go off on tangents tbf.
Black Sabbath was mentioned before. I have to say that as a previous Ozzy era fan only I have recently really enjoyed the Tony Martin albums, having had ignored them for the longest time. They still remain bottom of the pile for many though.
Anathema and Opeth fall into the 'earlier albums are better' category too, although I have enjoyed more recent output from Opeth personally ('Sorceress' for example). Personal taste needn't be apologised for I suppose.
People find it hard to get past the fact that life changes and sometimes musicians want to do other stuff. Ozzy Sabs is great, so is Dio, so is Martin. Some ropey stiff in there.alright, but for tge most part absolute quality.
Anyone got a link for that Steve Hackett interview??
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No we haven't. You have. Get out the door, throw off yer clothes and run naked across the bog. It'll do you good.
Actually on second thoughts don't https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0717/1154028-black-forest-rambo-germany/
Are Ensiferum any use?
Quote from: leatherface on July 17, 2020, 10:54:23 PM
Black Sabbath was mentioned before. I have to say that as a previous Ozzy era fan only I have recently really enjoyed the Tony Martin albums, having had ignored them for the longest time. They still remain bottom of the pile for many though.
Anathema and Opeth fall into the 'earlier albums are better' category too, although I have enjoyed more recent output from Opeth personally ('Sorceress' for example). Personal taste needn't be apologised for I suppose.
Ah yes perfect example with Black Sabbath. Some of the Tony Martin stuff is far better than the weakest Ozzy Black Sabbath albums. I ignored them for years as well based on absolutely fuck all.
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Quote from: Pedrito on July 17, 2020, 09:14:40 PM
Fuck never thought about it like that :laugh:
that's by design ???
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Quote from: Slaughterday on July 18, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
Ah yes perfect example with Black Sabbath. Some of the Tony Martin stuff is far better than the weakest Ozzy Black Sabbath albums. I ignored them for years as well based on absolutely fuck all.
There's one right there. No doubt you're talking about Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die. I love those two albums, so many good songs across the two of those, just a lighter sound. They're fucking great. I will echo the praise for Tony Martin Sabbath though, Eternal Idol (the song) being among the very heaviest riffs Iommi ever wrote.
Also, seven posts of bollocks in a row? The troll is sapping the enjoyment out of this place.
Lord above. Where did this mugz character drop out of?
Its like reading something from 15 years ago when forums were full of lads desperate to be some sort of personality.
You hardly just got the Internet yesterday did you? Or is it a genuine mid life crisis played out on MI2? What kind of shit posting have you been up to for the last 20 years? So many questions!
But quit asking yourself too many of them. Go out and bang a whore, grab a bag of coke and a bottle of Buckie and head home and listen to In The Sign Of Evil and turn off your Internet.
The posts read like Lysander's old ones from MI.
As annoying as he is, he raises an interesting point. This idea of relevance. Throughout the history of literature and music and other art forms we have seen a re-thinking of things that have gone before, whereby work that was considered weak or substandard in its time is looked over again and new value is given to it.
This has happened with artists and writers and musicians and I don't see why an exploration of these things is so bad. Certainly 80's metal has been re-assessed, with many bands now touring and releasing albums, that had been previously confined to the slag-heap.
Am I saying Roots or No Prayer are such albums. Well not necessarily. But, I'm not going to not entertain the idea. If someone doesn't like that way of thinking, then go start a different thread.
The topic is spot on, as with most other topics here, before they are derailed by boring and predictable solipsistic waffle.
Agreed
Quote from: mugz on July 18, 2020, 03:49:49 AM
where to go now that the capstone era of metal - the 00s and first half of the 2010s- has failed?
What in God's name are you on about now? Capstone era??!! Actually, don't explain...
Quote from: Slaughterday on July 18, 2020, 08:32:15 AM
The posts read like Lysander's old ones from MI.
A healthy diet of snickers and tuna.
Just stuck on Roots there, it's a tough listen...couldn't get through it, would have preferred if they just had a bunch of 'Jasco' type tracks meshed with the tribal ideas from Chaos on it and went completely left of field with it instead of chasing the nu-metal wave growing since 1994 post grunge.
And I wish these guys would do us a favour and not call themselves Sepultura post Roots...I try to give that post Max stuff a listen (the Autem song that was posted), I just can't shake the idea that it's not "Sepultura". A vocalist is too integral to a bands identity for me.
Quote from: The Butcher on July 18, 2020, 12:06:00 PM
And I wish these guys would do us a favour and not call themselves Sepultura post Roots...I try to give that post Max stuff a listen (the Autem song that was posted), I just can't shake the idea that it's not "Sepultura". A vocalist is too integral to a bands identity for me.
Well the time to do that was almost a quarter of a century ago, not now. I don't think it's fair to everyone else in the band. Judging by what Max went on to do and what Seps did, they lost a shitty rhythm guitarist and a bog standard vocalists. Anyway, Derrick Greene has been Sepultura's frontman for twice as long as Max.
Sepultura's sound has always been Andreas Kisser and Igor Cavalera's playing (and latterly Eloy Cassagrande) not Max's vocals, they're such a small part of it. Greene does the old stuff justice and still has his own thing going on. He's also powerful live and has great stage presence.
#BlacksLiveMatter
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 18, 2020, 10:25:54 AM
The topic is spot on, as with most other topics here, before they are derailed by boring and predictable solipsistic waffle.
you've used big words correctly before, and you've sort of used 'solipsistic' correctly here too, but in a fine example of multiple irony, failed to realise it applies mainly to you. I tried to bring the complete opposite of solipsism to this thread- by trying to drag the entire topic out of self referentialism, out of my head, out of yours too; that was the entire source of my irritation, that this stuff is becoming autonomic, and despite that you still don't get it.
not only are you quite stupid, you're sufficiently stupid you don't even realise it.
Worst flounce ever.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 17, 2020, 10:43:55 AM
"Recorded to 2" tape" is a current cool underground trend/ virtue signal that fills me with trepidation. Oh, they are recoding to tape, they must be good! The same 20 year olds who "only listen to 80s metal!". Gimps.
you're not wrong here that two trends which were kind of nice to see a few years ago, have become hollowed out and trite.
By solipsistic I was referring to your (dis)ability (too 97?) to drag your bleak cul-de-sac philosophical view of existence into every discussion, ie making it all about you. Like how Nixer had to make every topic revolve around him and his fantastic personality. This is ultimately a metal music forum, not a session on your councelor's chair.
Sure, at the end of the day, if we take a good long, hard look at ourselves, haven't we all at one time or another been guilty of calling someone "solipsistic" when what we really meant was "omphaloskeptic"?
Incidentally, 'Solipsistic Omphaloskeptic' is the most awesome technical DM album humanity has ever created. Real pity for the rest of you I never released or even performed it outside of my own mind :abbath:
Quote from: mugz on July 18, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
you've used big words correctly before, and you've sort of used 'solipsistic' correctly here too, but in a fine example of multiple irony, failed to realise it applies mainly to you. I tried to bring the complete opposite of solipsism to this thread- by trying to drag the entire topic out of self referentialism, out of my head, out of yours too; that was the entire source of my irritation, that this stuff is becoming autonomic, and despite that you still don't get it.
And this is a fine example of how one person can use so many words to so little effect. Over the course of however many posts you have inflicted on this board, I am yet to recall one coherent observation or argument. And McLove is right, you're just derailing perfectly decent topics by tying everything into your own maudlin worldview. On the plus side though, if you ever decide to kill anyone or commit a similar serious offence, there isn't an investigator out there who could get anything resembling an admission out of you, so you're safe on that front.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 18, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
By solipsistic I was referring to your (dis)ability (too 97?) to drag your bleak cul-de-sac philosophical view of existence into every discussion, ie making it all about you. Like how Nixer had to make every topic revolve around him and his fantastic personality. This is ultimately a metal music forum, not a session on your councelor's chair.
in some respects that fair, and I'm deleting everything, because I simply don't care anymore about any of the things relevant to this board. I even asked for one of the mods to delete my profile and all my posts, but it seems fair that I do it myself.
#firstworldproblems
u ok hun?
#hugs4mugz
Quote from: mugz on July 18, 2020, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 18, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
By solipsistic I was referring to your (dis)ability (too 97?) to drag your bleak cul-de-sac philosophical view of existence into every discussion, ie making it all about you. Like how Nixer had to make every topic revolve around him and his fantastic personality. This is ultimately a metal music forum, not a session on your councelor's chair.
in some respects that fair, and I'm deleting everything, because I simply don't care anymore about any of the things relevant to this board. I even asked for one of the mods to delete my profile and all my posts, but it seems fair that I do it myself.
Reduced to quoted fragments, just like the pre-Socratics! What will the digital archaeologists of tomorrow make of "mugz"?
#mugzlivesmatter
#notthatmuch
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 18, 2020, 09:08:39 PM
#notthatmuch
youre entirely welcome to see if you feel like being 'witty' in person. id actually be delighted to orphan your kid.
Are we ordering hits or strongly worded letters :laugh:?
Ah, you edited it.
... same old game
.
Mugz fuck away off you pathetic cunt
On the comments about Sepultura above, I can only point out that there's nothing really tribal about ROOTS other than the cover, that is quite a misconception about the album. Sepultura always tried to sympathise with the "common people" and its harsh reality. If you take the lyrics, even when they hint about indigenous people (on Roots bloody roots for instance) it has more to do with the political implications of its time than regaining some sort of tradition. Indigenous people have their clashes with the government due to preservation of their land and that was hot topic at the time. A year after the album was out, someone from a rich family burnt an indigenous to death in the capital, just to draw a picture of how much hatred the elites have for them. But IMO the album has more to do with social issues, and the music itself has more elements of African descendants rhythms popular in the northeast states (see Michael Jackson's "they don't care about us" videoclip, same year, that kind of music was popular back then), those were groups formed to get the youth from poor communities involved with something better than drugs and violence.
I wouldn't say they didn't want to experiment it, but there's certainly a commercial touch to such a change. I don't like it, but I would understand how different it sounds to people from different backgrounds.
PS: The lyrics to Rathamahata are just slang for and synonyms to "Slums". Awful song altogether...
I've only been posting on here a short time, bit I find a thread about the swaying of opinions on an internet form a bit wierd. If I have to point out why...... Just to piss everyone off my favourite sepultura album is nation. I always loved everything sepultura did, but nation was a positive but still aggressive album when every other metal album was trying to be Grimm as fuck, and I welcomed the warm vibe. Still do.
*Kill me now*
Listening to who must die? now, and not sure what anyone could find wrong with it
I like nathrakh too
Quote from: skuddington on July 19, 2020, 02:07:28 AM
I've only been posting on here a short time, bit I find a thread about the swaying of opinions on an internet form a bit wierd. If I have to point out why...... Just to piss everyone off my favourite sepultura album is nation. I always loved everything sepultura did, but nation was a positive but still aggressive album when every other metal album was trying to be Grimm as fuck, and I welcomed the warm vibe. Still do.
*Kill me now*
Controversial :laugh:
Lol I was going to come on here and try say Roorback was the best Sepultura album to see if anyone would call me out, but I couldn't even say it for the craic. That and Nation are terrible, but for an actual bit of controversy, my favourite of the Greene stuff is Against, which will probably go down equally badly
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 18, 2020, 03:29:54 PM
Incidentally, 'Solipsistic Omphaloskeptic' is the most awesome technical DM album humanity has ever created. Real pity for the rest of you I never released or even performed it outside of my own mind :abbath:
Better get that recorded to 2" tape quick. I imagined the demo there and it was great stuff. Even the Nightwish style vocals and Dubstep interludes couldn't drag it down. The wacky lyrics were a great touch as well and I can't think of any lyricist other than Richie Kavanagh who could present such scathing social commentary in such an accessible fashion.
Quote from: O Drighes on July 19, 2020, 12:10:32 AM
On the comments about Sepultura above, I can only point out that there's nothing really tribal about ROOTS other than the cover, that is quite a misconception about the album. Sepultura always tried to sympathise with the "common people" and its harsh reality. If you take the lyrics, even when they hint about indigenous people (on Roots bloody roots for instance) it has more to do with the political implications of its time than regaining some sort of tradition. Indigenous people have their clashes with the government due to preservation of their land and that was hot topic at the time. A year after the album was out, someone from a rich family burnt an indigenous to death in the capital, just to draw a picture of how much hatred the elites have for them. But IMO the album has more to do with social issues, and the music itself has more elements of African descendants rhythms popular in the northeast states (see Michael Jackson's "they don't care about us" videoclip, same year, that kind of music was popular back then), those were groups formed to get the youth from poor communities involved with something better than drugs and violence.
I wouldn't say they didn't want to experiment it, but there's certainly a commercial touch to such a change. I don't like it, but I would understand how different it sounds to people from different backgrounds.
PS: The lyrics to Rathamahata are just slang for and synonyms to "Slums". Awful song altogether...
Interesting breakdown. So much about Brazil is mistaken for stuff 'from the favelhas' when that is so far from the actual truth. And of course the indigenous touch is something plenty of Europeans/Yanks romanticize.
Quote from: Slaughterday on July 18, 2020, 08:32:15 AM
The posts read like Lysander's old ones from MI.
100% it is somebody from the old forum and yes, Lysander sprung to my mind too. The snickers and tuna diet :laugh:
I hope the irony of using a thread with "metal group think" in the title to jump on a bandwagon of lambasting a particular user isn't lost on us all...
If he's a victim, it's only of his own personality.
He's threatening people's lives and including McLove's family in the post ffs. Disgusting behaviour. This thread started out fine and was hijacked for pages with constant self-referential posts.
I'm not even sticking up for him here, just folding the thread back on itself.
I have noticed that mentality going right back through the old forum as well, where newer users feel more freedom to slate the shit out of others, once it has been pre-approved, by someone with a high post count breaking the ice for them. So it's on-topic in a way and certainly not limited to this forum either. It happens everywhere.
For what it's worth, I don't think anyone does themselves any favours either by repeating the exact same schtick in every thread, no matter what it may entail.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 19, 2020, 11:05:33 AM
He's threatening people's lives and including McLove's family in the post ffs. Disgusting behaviour. This thread started out fine and was hijacked for pages with constant self-referential posts.
I didn't see that, was that one of the deleted posts?
Fuck it, I'm putting it down to drunken retardation (If not, then egg on my corpse!). Let's rer-rail this topic because it's an interesting discussion.
Yeah, fuck it let's get back on track.
I have a bit of an issue at times with how bands present themselves, which puts me right off trying them out at all. One in particular that I remember was coming across a band called Abominable Yeti and their promo pic was the 2 of them sitting propped up against a stack of Orange cabs in full denims with 70's style long hair and beards, and that coupled with the gushing praise of the article immediately put me off listening to any of it. Not saying I missed out there either, and I'm fairly confident I didn't but there have been loads of things over the years like that where praise for something rather than it being vilified has given me preconceptions
I come here (as does everyone else I assume) for a bit of shite talk about metal and other topics, yeah the odd time it gets heated, but what Mugz said to McLove was some genuinely nasty shit.
Someone threatening the lives of a posters missus and sprog isn't on.
Quote from: skuddington on July 19, 2020, 02:07:28 AM
I've only been posting on here a short time, bit I find a thread about the swaying of opinions on an internet form a bit wierd. If I have to point out why...... Just to piss everyone off my favourite sepultura album is nation. I always loved everything sepultura did, but nation was a positive but still aggressive album when every other metal album was trying to be Grimm as fuck, and I welcomed the warm vibe. Still do.
*Kill me now*
I had this jammed in my Walkman when I was at college. Stuck it on yesterday as part of my Seps buzz (I got through almost their entire discography) and while it wouldn't be my favourite, I think there's merit to it the same way Roots has - it's a sprawl of different vibes and sounds (not all hit the mark).
It was also my introduction to Bauhaus via the cover of Bela Lugosi's Dead, so there's always that :abbath:
Quote from: Ducky on July 19, 2020, 11:23:37 AM
I come here (as does everyone else I assume) for a bit of shite talk about metal and other topics, yeah the odd time it gets heated, but what Mugz said to McLove was some genuinely nasty shit.
Someone threatening the lives of a posters missus and sprog isn't on.
No, it certainly isn't on and I wouldn't condone it in any way either. I'd liken the craic around here to the snooker mentality of playing the balls on the table rather than the opponent in the chair. Like, disagree with the point all day long, but don't make it personal. Bit of verbal jousting no bother. I've always liked round here how lads can disagree completely on one thread and find common cause on another.
Emperor is another band I hated on sight and the effusive praise for them kept me away for years until I had to admit after actually listening to them that they were indeed great.
Regarding Nation, I really tried to like it after spending 20 quid on it back in the day but all of the songs left me feeling very flat. I did listen to it rakes of times though. The real, unarguable, absolute stinker in the collection is Roorback though. Pure unremitting shite from start to finish.
A-Lex doesn't get much of a mention anywhere either, but I really enjoyed that one.
Max Cavalera on Roots: "In a way, I preferred the not-so-successful side of being in a band," he shrugs. "Everything just got too big. It was weird, because we became this trend and there was something wrong about that. We were a metal band, we're supposed to be black sheep! There are people who like it, but everyone else is supposed to hate it. When everyone likes it, there's something wrong, either with us or with the world! Ha ha ha! So I didn't enjoy the Roots thing so much. It's weird to me now because I look back and I think about how I split from the band at that time, right after Roots."
And herein, I find, lies a lot of the problem. Artists often self criticize, they can't handle this new 'space' that they're in, they're often the worst people to judge their own mysic. Kurt Cobain is another example. Was he doing much different to what he had already done? Well to the untrained ear, no. And to the trained ear, yes and no. And yet these are a type of psychological response to something or a response based on perceptions, which has nothing to do with the reason they created the album in the first place. You read Seps talking about recording Itsarí with the native tribe and thir energy and enthusiasm jumps off the page. It's only when they encounter this new-found fame and appreciation and begin to be vaunted on a more mainstream level that it all becomes an issue for Max in particular. So my readibg of that would go back to this idea of 'group think', and self disciplining.
Bathory another example of a band who had to rein in certain traits that they exhibited. So it raises questions about how much control any band has over their material. Is it all a one way street or are we all open to this 'feedback loop'? I suspect even the bedroom BM lads were open to it at the end of the day.
Ah i'd say it gets in on everyone, whether they embrace it or rail against it, it still gets in. Roots probably was a missed opportunity for Sepultura in the regard you mention it though. They tried to straddle the line between doing something entirely new for them and also keeping something for their fanbase at the time. I used to think it was brilliant but the last couple of times I put it on, I didn't make it all the way through. Ross Robinson and his woeful "production" has a lot to do with that as well though.
Quote
youre entirely welcome to see if you feel like being 'witty' in person. id actually be delighted to orphan your kid.
One of the only posts left intact! Bearing in mind that the thread isn't only about metal group think but also metal tropes, the conceptual conflict of how to combine a claim to intellectual superiority with praise of brute force, without the latter coming across as a sign of failure of the former, that one's a recurring doozy! :abbath:
I love Robinson's production, you can hear everything correctly, the drums are fucking huge.
He's an interesting one for this thread, I've always heard how he makes band's sound polished and blah blah blah. Isn't sounding polished the goal of getting him in as a producer?
I remember someone I knew complaining that ATD-I's 'Relationship of Command' was clean-sounding. Yeah, they're a moderately successful commercial band, this is their breakthrough record and the one that you first heard... so job done?
Ya, the right production allows the individual elements have their own clear space. The production shouldn't be thin for most bands in metal. Shades of God is a good example, those songs would have a lot more heft even with Icon's production.
And McLove's suggestion yesterday, Decoryah. Superb music and vocals, lots of different elements but they all blend in together way too much, imo, obviously.
Can't get in on Robinson's production at all. I think it sucks all the bite and power from the guitars and his high end is often muddy, too. I'll admit I haven't listened to Relationship of Command ever so I dunno about that one. A fine example of his terrible production is the Dead Cross album. Very bad on that one.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 19, 2020, 12:08:50 PM
Quote
youre entirely welcome to see if you feel like being 'witty' in person. id actually be delighted to orphan your kid.
One of the only posts left intact! Bearing in mind that the thread isn't only about metal group think but also metal tropes, the conceptual conflict of how to combine intellectual superiority with praise of brute force without the latter coming across as a sign of failure of the former, that one's a recurring doozy!
Personally calling out lads on a forum has always been puerile. Leather Mike springs to mind here as well. He got a fair bit of stick for that at times.
Regarding production (and I could be veering off topic here) I know a lot of people roll their eyes at the 'demos are the best' attitudes among certain metalheads, but I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate. I love the gestation phase of a lot of early black and doom bands in particular. Ulver are a brilliant example of perfectly straddling both worlds. The 'Vargnatt' demo is so unpolished with levels kind of flying all over the gaff and a brutish combination of jarring elements. It really demands the listener to come and meet it on its own terms. No doubt for some it's an unlistenable mess but for me it's a glorious mess and I'll be keeping it in mind with my own future recordings. More wonk, please! At the same time their debut, 'Bergtatt', shows how all of those disparate elements can be brought together in a seamless way and it sounds great for that, too. There's more than one way to skin a cat, is the upshot, and from my standpoint a lot of the mischief and mayhem seems to have been washed out of the black and doom scenes in favour of a slick, professional (surely an oxymoron) finish. When executed well, that's great, but it has made a lot of bands sound interchangeable to me. It's one of the main reasons I'm spending so much more time digging into older stuff that I overlooked. That early stage in extreme metal yielded so many exciting, unorthodox results due in massive part to naivety, inexperience and ineptitude- the holy trinity of quality extreme metal!
Also, 'Relationship of Command' has a savage production. I haven't listened to it in years but I've been chatting about it a bit lately with a lad in work. Must fire it on the car.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 19, 2020, 12:28:13 PM
it has made a lot of bands sound interchangeable to me.
That's the potential trade off, I guess but my way of looking at it then would be that the songs need to stand on their own merit. But ya, you have a point.
Leather Mike in fairness wasn't a bad lad. He just fell into that 'train of thought' stype of ppsting whereby there was no filter and would post reams and reams of waffle.
Anyway, back to the thread.
I've been thinking this for a while:
The new Bölzer is incredible. However, (and I could be way off the mark on this one) it hints to me of a certain element of reining oneself back in. Hero was such a strong and brave move. It took a genre and went beyond it. Now don't get me wrong, Lese Majesty is really, really great, but thematically and stylistically is there an element of this 'feedback loop' at play? I couldn't help notice they.had been on tour with the likes of Behemoth and Primordial a and I wonder did that influence them away from their previous stance, to something darker, heavier and slightly more 'acceptable'?
Again, just shooting the shit here, but it's something I've been thinking for a while.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 19, 2020, 12:28:13 PM
Regarding production (and I could be veering off topic here) I know a lot of people roll their eyes at the 'demos are the best' attitudes among certain metalheads, but I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate. I love the gestation phase of a lot of early black and doom bands in particular. Ulver are a brilliant example of perfectly straddling both worlds. The 'Vargnatt' demo is so unpolished with levels kind of flying all over the gaff and a brutish combination of jarring elements. It really demands the listener to come and meet it on its own terms. No doubt for some it's an unlistenable mess but for me it's a glorious mess and I'll be keeping it in mind with my own future recordings. More wonk, please! At the same time their debut, 'Bergtatt', shows how all of those disparate elements can be brought together in a seamless way and it sounds great for that, too. There's more than one way to skin a cat, is the upshot, and from my standpoint a lot of the mischief and mayhem seems to have been washed out of the black and doom scenes in favour of a slick, professional (surely an oxymoron) finish. When executed well, that's great, but it has made a lot of bands sound interchangeable to me. It's one of the main reasons I'm spending so much more time digging into older stuff that I overlooked. That early stage in extreme metal yielded so many exciting, unorthodox results due in massive part to naivety, inexperience and ineptitude- the holy trinity of quality extreme metal!
Definitely huge value to be found in the earlier recordings of bands.
It strikes me as the age old conflict between the Dionysian and Appolonian that oul Nietzsche was talking about, though I mightn't be entirely accurate in how I interpret that either.
Interesting point about the production indeed. There is a lot of charm to be found in slightly wonky sounding things. Only tune I know by ATDI is One Armed Scissor and I don't mind the sound of that at all, so maybe RR does have his merits depending on the band. Maybe. Something like Andy Sneap's production for me is the ultimate in sucking the life out of something.
Also wasn't calling out Leather Mike, I often enjoyed the discussion with him. Just remembering that he was called out a few times for looking to fight lads in real life.
Paradise Lost get brought up a bit too often around here by me, but are they not the perfect example of what you were saying about Bolzer? They really went backwards over the years after going out on a limb with some of the albums. Akercocke, who I love, also did it with Antichrist, after the boundless experimentation of Words that go Unspoken...
I know I'd enjoy Hero a lot more (well, at all) if it had a similar sound to Roman Acupuncture. My copy of Slaughter of the Soul has a few demo tracks and they sound a lot better than the album.
I also didn't like the production on Dead Cross, forgot it was Robinson.
Overly polished production absolutely saps the life out of bands for me. I like it to be clear and defined and all but fully agree it makes bands interchangeable it's done in that particular crispy clean way. Some stuff it suits, fair enough, but for types of metal I go to I prefer a bit of grit on the product. I'm not even talking as far out now as BM demos, but there's a middle ground that's perfect, and adds some level of character to it all.
Some odd examples. How to sound clear and crisp but with the production having good slop, weight, and grit on it: Kowloon Walled City, "Greivances". Neurosis' TSIB does it similar. Godflesh "Hymns".
Actually on the Godflesh note, imagine "Streetcleaner" with technically better production - the album is fucked. The impact would be lost. Look at Mayhem, "Ordo Ad Chao" for a fantastic example of 'bad' production done well. Absolutely soaked in atmosphere, and as said before, makes you approach it on its own terms. I think we've already had this discussion elsewhere on the forum anyway.
I love the sound of Ordo Ad Chao. It's murky as fuck but everything still sounds well defined
I raised the personality of production thing recently in the Now listening thread. I'd been listening to earliest period and also mid period Sodom and Kreator. Those earliest releases define who those bands are, and as the production "improved" they sounded more and more alike, notwithstanding an intentional change in musical direction. Basically, with bad production, the songs are naked; as production is improved, there can be a trend for bands to sound like they all buy their clothes in the same place. But there is a space for proper "designer" production which retains all the personality of the songs, "merely" enhancing what is already there. Good music killed by generic production robes will come across better (to the discerning ear) in its naked, demo form, where available.
All that said, I think the production on Bölzer's releases follows an excellent evolution, but sure look it...
I'm only posing the question really. To my ears the new Bölzer is incredible
Linking it back to the original topic, I'd say it's a bit of a cliche that Sneap's production is too lifeless. He has a set sound alright but with the right bands it's great. He certainly improved Nevermores Enemies of Reality, the two Hell albums sound brilliant, so does the latest Judas Priest...once the bands have the songs he seems to get it right more than not
Yeah Sneap's sound doesn't happen by accident, and the album's he produced for Nevermore sound so much better than the ones he didn't. I think his cold, clinical style suits their music to a T.
I think people dismiss Manowar off hand because they have an image of them as a bunch of fannys in leather outfits that would make Halford cringe, singing about swords and dragons and shit and therefore miss out on 5 or 6 of the best 80s heavy metal albums recorded.
DeMaio does talk some awful bollocks though.
I take them no more seriously that I do Spinal Tap or Bad News. At first, yes it was primarily for their image but I eventually gave their music a chance on its own merits. They're truly awful, and still a joke band as far as I'm concerned but I'd argue that their position as heavy metal stalwarts is maintained more by the true kvlt warriorz than your average metal fan - in my experience, at least - in an example of the group think of which we speak.
I consider Ordo a really fantastic album in it's own right but it really doesn't sound like Mayhem. It sounds like if a Doom and Grindcore band got together and wrote an album.
Quote from: Carnage on July 19, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
I take them no more seriously that I do Spinal Tap or Bad News. At first, yes it was primarily for their image but I eventually gave their music a chance on its own merits. They're truly awful, and still a joke band as far as I'm concerned but I'd argue that their position as heavy metal stalwarts is maintained more by the true kvlt warriorz than your average metal fan - in my experience, at least - in an example of the group think of which we speak.
I completely get this way of thinking and, again, it's a taste thing, but I think you could easily look at the vast majority of metal and most especially extreme metal through the same lens. While I think Absu in the other thread are a very cool band, the levels of Spinal Tapisms are up there with Manowar. I'd include Ghost and Behemoth and Watain and plenty of those bands that use smoke machines and props in the same league. the fact that a lot of extreme metal IS so serious is what I'm getting at. And yet it's not a criticism, I'd just see it all as not too dissimilar.
Manowar went cringy with time alright, but lets not forget their first two albums: one is a pinacle of American Heavy Metal and the other one is among the main musical influences to Bathory...
I now understand that in Ireland there's a certain sentiment towards more eccentric bands, but for me that's precisely the point: being the embodiment of your work. There's a reason why a stage - as well as a church altar - is a step above the audience and that's because you're supposed to experience something extraordinary. And it's not that everything up there needs to be utterly coherent, it's what it evokes in you that should matter IMO. I am all for props on stage when it's done right...Watain's stage completely on fire for example is the real deal, but canons shooting fire in pentagram shape behind a lad dressed like a casual dad does look quite silly.
Nah, Manowar have always been a really bad joke. But of course, I was told I was a false because well oiled fellas doing the fantasy stuff doesn't do it for me.
There's one that bugs me - Dio. He was obviously a great vocalist, but what did he use his voice to sing about? Complete bollocks that was carefully marketed towards nerds/neckbeards. The Dio years of Sabbath are some sort of proto - something - rock. Inexcusable shite of the highest order. My toes curl every time I hear the little cunt.
Being conscious of not letting this turn into the controversial opinions thread, I've always been met with derision when I express distaste for Motorhead.
A blues rock band with a bit more balls than usual. Sorry if not wanting to lick Lemmy's warts means I'm not a true fan of metal...
Quote from: O Drighes on July 20, 2020, 01:52:25 AM
Manowar went cringy with time alright, but lets not forget their first two albums: one is a pinacle of American Heavy Metal and the other one is among the main musical influences to Bathory...
I now understand that in Ireland there's a certain sentiment towards more eccentric bands, but for me that's precisely the point: being the embodiment of your work. There's a reason why a stage - as well as a church altar - is a step above the audience and that's because you're supposed to experience something extraordinary. And it's not that everything up there needs to be utterly coherent, it's what it evokes in you that should matter IMO. I am all for props on stage when it's done right...Watain's stage completely on fire for example is the real deal, but canons shooting fire in pentagram shape behind a lad dressed like a casual dad does look quite silly.
I agree completely. It's the bigness of it all that makes it metal. Irish people are very uncomfortable with a whole lot of things, most especially flamboyancy and overt displays of passion. In Spain where I live, the fact that a lad would dress up and look well is seen as very masculine. It takes guts to do it I suppose is the idea. Manowar follows that way of thinking. I also yhink their earlier albums are excellent, they were innovators and risk takers in their own time, completely eschewing formula and were out on their own doing their own thing.
And yeah, it's going to turn into the controversial thread Ducky, we get you don't like old school rock/metal. Zepellin a 'pub-rock' band and now Motörhead. Millions would disagree. But, that said, it raises a fair point about clichés and tropes and about WHAT you are expected to be into to be considered being into metal I suppose.
Early Manowar is still amazing, nothing quite like them. I love everything up to The Triumph of Steel. Beyond that, just awful.
I didn't get into Led Zeppelin until they put out DVD. Once I picked that up and spent time with it, it all fell into place.
Motorhead, though... there's a really good double album to be made from their career but they had so, so much filler. The deification of Lemmy is embarrassing at this stage. He was a character, for sure, but the worship is fucking cringe central. They strike me as something like the Ramones, where there are more people wearing their t-shirts than ever gave a fuck about their music.
Ah I get what you're both saying now. Yep, the God thing is a bit much alright. I personally just really like Dio, Motörhead have had their great moments and Manowar have some excellent albums. I love the Ramones too :laugh: but I can see how it just annoys the shite out of people, because, honestoy, Metallica has become that thing now also, and it's horrible to watch.
If, however, it's to do with their lyrics and flamboyance, that's when I start to have an issue. A lad singkng about dragons is no different to some serious looking lad singing about some black magic stuff. It could be interpreted equally as ridiculous I suppose is my point, and yet I like my metal ridiculous, it's not meant to conform.
Quote from: Juggz on July 20, 2020, 09:27:33 AMMotorhead, though... there's a really good double album to be made from their career but they had so, so much filler.
Fair. Overkill is brilliant, one of my favourite albums and not a filler track to be found, but I've never been bothered about picking up any other of their albums. No Remorse maybe, a solid compilation of their best early stuff but even the likes of Ace Of Spades, Bomber, Iron Fist etc. have filler aplenty.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 20, 2020, 09:03:58 AM
And yeah, it's going to turn into the controversial thread Ducky, we get you don't like old school rock/metal. Zepellin a 'pub-rock' band and now Motörhead. Millions would disagree. But, that said, it raises a fair point about clichés and tropes and about WHAT you are expected to be into to be considered being into metal I suppose.
It's not that I'm adverse to old school rock and metal. Would still listen to Bon Scott-era AC/DC and Mk. 2 Deep Purple all day long, ditto a lot of the other standards. Sure I posted Heart - Dog and Butterfly in the Now Playing thread the other day. Ace of Spades was released before I was born and my discovery of metal has been a largely personal thing, so I'm experiencing all these bands with very little outside opinion and judging them on what's coming from my speakers and nothing else.
But I've genuinely been told I'm not a "real" metal fan (whatever the fuck that's supposed to be) for not being into Motorhead (but the same lad would never have even heard of say Autopsy or Candlemass, for instance - bands that are 100% "metal" - Motorhead are for all intents and purposes a scuzzy blues band).
I have a few of their albums and there's some cracking songs between them (Bomber, Overkill, Poison, Damage Case, a few others), but as Juggz mentions, it's their position and how high they're held that I have the issue with. There's absolutely nothing remarkable about the music and their catalogue is largely forgettable.
Is it their influence on Metallica that elevates their status? Why aren't say Diamond Head held in the same regard? Or was it Lemmy's "punk" way of life and giving zero fucks that's the appeal? Listening to Motorhead aligns you with that sort of mentality?
I just don't understand the appeal or reverence for them.
Quote from: Ducky on July 19, 2020, 05:50:05 PM
Yeah Sneap's sound doesn't happen by accident, and the album's he produced for Nevermore sound so much better than the ones he didn't. I think his cold, clinical style suits their music to a T.
What put me off Sneap was when I joined his FB recording techniques page, and I came to realise that when the vocals are comped and autotuned, the drums are all replaced, the bass is clean DI re-amped and quadrupled, the guitars are all treated like the bass, then false low-end added after the fact and all that, that there isn't a whole lot of the original character left. It's for that reason that I don't buzz off it, even when it actually sounds good it's all a bit too polished. I understand that is the general way of things these days and also in previous times, but it was through the dissection of his techniques that my ears were opened up to that sort of thing.
I also can fully understand why say the likes of myself or other bedroom production enthusiasts might do things like that because it takes a bit of the shitness off recording with a shitty laptop through shitty gear but I would expect the big studio names to be capturing a bit more of the actual magic than a clean DI of the respective performances and doing all the rest after. Maybe I'm being unfair on Sneap by singling him out, but it certainly isn't because I've been swayed by any general opinion on the sterility of his productions. I actually mentioned in another thread that I like the sound of KSE's Alive.. and that was him at the helm.
I see Motorhead mentioned again and I feel the same as others have said in that some of it is very good but a lot of it is neither here nor there.
Incidentally, as good as the songs on the Hell comeback album were, all the above is one primary reason why Satan's was just so much better.
Rick Beato has a good video on how sterile Rock music production has become in the last 20 or so years. Everything is played to a click, quantised and drums are replaced with samples. So by the end every verse and chorus is the same speed and the beat of every drum sounds the exact same. It's bizarre because acceleration should be a quality of rock music, obviously you want good timing but if a band is playing an upbeat rock/metal song and they managed to stay at the exact same bpm throughout you'd think they have no energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFaRIW-wZlw
Yes it's something that existed back recording analogue too. Playing to a click. It's hard to know if it ever works properly. Some stuff can be done to it and other songs just die.
Good story of Kurt Cobain trying for ages to play I think the song is 'Something in the way' to a click. They were going round in circles and it was sounding crap and they were all getting frustrated. They take a break and Kurt is strumming lying upside down on a sofa in the studio and quietly singing it to himself and Butch Vig tells him not to move, forget the click and records him as he is. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Another cliché/metal group think that was going around for years was an acceptance of a band like AIC, while Nirvana were seen as sellouts and hated. I know loads of people wrote them off without hardly ever listening to anything more than a handful of songs, albeit repeatedly. A great, great band, and when they were intense and heavy they'd give the majority a run for their money.
In my youthful idiocy, I wrote off Nirvana - despite the fact Smells Like is what made me sit up and think "right, I need to check out guitar music" and In Utero was the second CD I ever bought (after Ride the Lightning)... all this despite me being balls deep in bands such as AiC, Pearl Jam, etc.
Thankfully I copped the fuck on pretty quickly and still listen to their discography on the regular to this day. Was planning on listening to the two Chat Pile EPs later, so may stick on Bleach after those.
Oddly, I was listening to Nevermind today for the first time in a few years and picked up on loads of little production features I hasn't noticed before. Incredible band and an incredible album.
A mate in his mid 40s sent me an Alice in Chains track the last day and made sure to note "doom not grunge". ha. Case in point.
Nirvana are and always will be one of my favourite band.
Many an argument I've had with metallers over how songwriting trumps technical ability because Nirvana songs are easily played. Never got that mentality at all.
It's not how technical you play, it's how well you play. Give me a Nirvana or a Megadeth or an Atheist and as long as they're in the pocket and playing comfortably I'm happy out.
Attitude and atmosphere trump technicality in nearly all cases.
Photo-realism is cool in small doses, but it's not what art is all about. Same applies for technical ability in music. I can enjoy what a player can do for a certain amount of time, but what I'm interested in is what they have to say and how they choose to say it.
I think it's great when players with obvious serious technical ability choose to only let it out in brief flashes rather than composing whole tunes of it. The payoff that way is much more satisfying. The technical stuff can be done in very tasteful ways without beating everyone over the head with it. Devin Townsend is someone who seems to be forever trying to walk that tightrope between melody and technicality, with varying degrees of success. Got it spot on with Terria though.
Another thing. People are always saying Nirvana's tunes are really easy to play, but I've yet to hear anybody getting one of the solos right.
Aye fantastic playing is always great but the song should always be first. There seems to have been a huge surge in techdeath over the last few years, and its a genre I really like, but theres so many bands just blasting at 280bpm over a shitload of sweeps for every song. All the better ones know how to mix it up
Quote from: astfgyl on July 20, 2020, 06:50:42 PM
Another thing. People are always saying Nirvana's tunes are really easy to play, but I've yet to hear anybody getting one of the solos right.
I had quite a long post about this, about how music is about channeling, but I started boring myself writing it so reduced the whole thing to the above!
Quote from: open face surgery on July 20, 2020, 06:04:18 PM
Attitude and atmosphere trump technicality in nearly all cases.
Nah. Sid Vicious had attitude to spare but he was fucking useless other than in his role as a useless cunt. It's all about balance. Attitude without ability is as bad as ability without attitude. If you get someone who can skilfully blend the two you get great, great art. Think Friedman on RIP or Tommy Vetterli on Mental Vortex, it required immense technical skill alongside sublime taste to bring that music to such great heights. Cobain was never as bereft of ability as he let on plus he had the immensly skilled Grohl drumming for him. Great music is great music and some cunt pretending he can't play but throwing shapes seldom makes for great art.
Quote from: Juggz on July 20, 2020, 07:17:26 PM
some cunt pretending he can't play but throwing shapes seldom makes for great art.
Except in Hamburg, where knowing how to have a good time is more important...
https://youtu.be/f36fkktbM0Q?t=412
Most musicians that are branded as having attitude are still competent players though. They're not virtuosos by any means, but their material still requires musical skill to play.
I think my favourite of "attitude" is Mary Timoney (of Autoclave, Helium, Wild Flag, Ex Hex, her own solo stuff). She studied jazz and classical guitar, at one point her teacher said "we can't actually teach her anymore, she's that good", yet most of her music is three chord stuff (Autoclave has some mad time signatures going on at least).
This is not necessarily to do with metal but I thought I would put it here. There is a general ´'consensus' amongst bloggers and journalists that 'Rock is dead'. Their evidence is that is doesn't pull in any 'young' audiences (or 'markets' to use a colder term). Is this really the case and is it also the case for metal? A cursory glance at this forum shows that there are plenty of bands out there, even though I might not know all of the bands you all speak of I still see a vibrant 'scene'. Would be interested to see views on this.
Where does Justin Broadrick fit in, in the technical ability vs attitude multiplied by pure channeling while we're at it? I've only seen youtube videos but he is something to behold in full swing
Edit: Wait, I'm lying, I saw Jesu supporting Isis back in the day and he was thrashing all over the place to the slowest possible music
Quote from: leatherface on July 20, 2020, 07:40:55 PM
This is not necessarily to do with metal but I thought I would put it here. There is a general ´'consensus' amongst bloggers and journalists that 'Rock is dead'. Their evidence is that is doesn't pull in any 'young' audiences (or 'markets' to use a colder term). Is this really the case and is it also the case for metal? A cursory glance at this forum shows that there are plenty of bands out there, even though I might not know all of the bands you all speak of I still see a vibrant 'scene'. Would be interested to see views on this.
You took the words.right out of my mouth...these are the things I'm talking about. Ok physical.album sales might be down but I'd imagine on a global level metal or rock has never had such an audience with youtube, spotify etc
Quote from: Juggz on July 20, 2020, 07:17:26 PM
Quote from: open face surgery on July 20, 2020, 06:04:18 PM
Attitude and atmosphere trump technicality in nearly all cases.
Nah. Sid Vicious had attitude to spare but he was fucking useless other than in his role as a useless cunt. It's all about balance. Attitude without ability is as bad as ability without attitude. If you get someone who can skilfully blend the two you get great, great art. Think Friedman on RIP or Tommy Vetterli on Mental Vortex, it required immense technical skill alongside sublime taste to bring that music to such great heights. Cobain was never as bereft of ability as he let on plus he had the immensly skilled Grohl drumming for him. Great music is great music and some cunt pretending he can't play but throwing shapes seldom makes for great art.
If I agreed any more people would start talking. All top, top musicians in Nirvana. Friedman another great example. Supposedly Mustaine has to teach him some of the solos on RIP, that's how good Mustaine was too. They're all playing at that sweet spot within their abilities, that's why it all looks so good and feels so good and has that beautiful professional vibe off it. And if I'm being very honest, plenty of the more blasty, fast stuff is often covering up some limitations. Not all bands of course, but there's a good few. Just gets lost in the mix.
I think even Mustaine, who'd tell you he taught his own mother how to give birth if he thought he could get away with it, limited himself to saying he had to correct Friedman's rhythm playing on some riffs. His strategy for being the best "something" guitarist was to stake his claim to greatest rhythm player; more important to beat James than Kirk, who he just decided was shite, although "did his best with what he knows how to do" haha.
So many excellent points on this discussion except for you misguided chaps that don't appreciate how totally brilliant Motörhead are. I love them and I know a lot of it sounds the same but they are still a top 5 band for me.
Sure the ring-leader thinks the creators of No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand are a "beginner" band, so I wouldn't worry about it too much ;)
As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time, while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive, much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.
And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.
Quote from: Circlepit on July 20, 2020, 10:03:48 PM
So many excellent points on this discussion except for you misguided chaps that don't appreciate how totally brilliant Motörhead are. I love them and I know a lot of it sounds the same but they are still a top 5 band for me.
Stunning and brave. :laugh:
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 20, 2020, 09:57:05 PM
I think even Mustaine, who'd tell you he taught his own mother how to give birth if he thought he could get away with it, limited himself to saying he had to correct Friedman's rhythm playing on some riffs. His strategy for being the best "something" guitarist was to stake his claim to greatest rhythm player; more important to beat James than Kirk, who he just decided was shite, although "did his best with what he knows how to do" haha.
Didn't he say he sang Friedman's solos to him, at one point, trying to take credit for their composition? :laugh:
Quote from: Juggz on July 20, 2020, 10:19:54 PM
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 20, 2020, 09:57:05 PM
I think even Mustaine, who'd tell you he taught his own mother how to give birth if he thought he could get away with it, limited himself to saying he had to correct Friedman's rhythm playing on some riffs. His strategy for being the best "something" guitarist was to stake his claim to greatest rhythm player; more important to beat James than Kirk, who he just decided was shite, although "did his best with what he knows how to do" haha.
Didn't he say he sang Friedman's solos to him, at one point, trying to take credit for their composition? :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You wouldn't put it past him. And was he talking about the Megadeth or Cacophony solos? :laugh:
Mustaine must've made him very angry. From Friedman to Boiledman you could say.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 20, 2020, 10:05:53 PM
Sure the ring-leader thinks the creators of No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand are a "beginner" band, so I wouldn't worry about it too much ;)
Frightening viewpoint really..I've been debating with myself as to how to respond for days now :laugh:
In My Time of Dying, kids' stuff really :laugh: :abbath:
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 20, 2020, 10:16:15 PM
As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time, while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive, much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.
And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.
This is a great point. Yes, I've mocked BM in my lifetime but I also admire all.of the above about it. And I see Dio and Priest and Manowar in a similar light...they're meant to be caricatures or over the top or whatever term we want to use..larger than life and better for it.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 20, 2020, 10:50:20 PM
In My Time of Dying, kids' stuff really :laugh: :abbath:
Sure I was writing that stuff when I first picked ip the guitar..djangalanglang, bobs your uncle, piece of piss
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on July 20, 2020, 10:05:53 PM
Sure the ring-leader thinks the creators of No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand are a "beginner" band, so I wouldn't worry about it too much ;)
Guilty as charged :laugh:
:laugh:
Quote from: Pedrito on July 20, 2020, 10:56:59 PM
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 20, 2020, 10:16:15 PM
As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time, while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive, much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.
And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.
This is a great point. Yes, I've mocked BM in my lifetime but I also admire all.of the above about it. And I see Dio and Priest and Manowar in a similar light...they're meant to be caricatures or over the top or whatever term we want to use..larger than life and better for it.
Not a clue do you have about BM.
Over the top, caricature......
Shit.
Not a notion. But that's fair enough. It's a style only certain people 'get'. And thats just the way it is. I'm aware this post may seem elite or whatever but that's not it either.
Genuinely not having a go at you by the way.
Yeah probably chose the wrong words, and I'm a fairweather fan if truth be told. Not to worry man, I won't be losing sleep over it. I think McLoves post captured all that needed to be said.
Only some people can "get" BM.
Can't that be said for any genre that somebody sees differently than we do ourselves? Like I could say anything about it for right or wrong and it might be said I just don't get it. "I don't like Goregrind, the words 'over the top' and 'caricature' spring to mind" .... "Ah you know fuck all about it, only some can 'get' it"
Which album would anyone say encapsulates the BM genre, and why?
Dunno, I find the 'you don't get xy or z' a bit infantile to be honest. I enjoy certain BM releases, but I don't have any demo tapes from Singapore, and I cringe at a lot of the theatrics and stage antics. James from AOP said to me in college years back 'I love black metal, but outside of the music, it's a farcical genre'. I'd agree with that for the most part.
Relationship of Command has a razor sharp production, excellent call! That's going to be spun today n'all.
I got the impression that a lot of people wrote off 'Reinkaos' at the time just because that appeared to be the consensus at the time, lots of hyperbole being farted around. Solid album, I could never understand the hate for it, bar the fact that it's not as good as the two bona fide classics that came before it.
How can you separate the likes of DMDS from the imagery and chaos that surrounds that album? And why would you want to! I'm all in on all aspects of it.
In other words, black metal with a bland everyman image is antithetical to its whole philosophy in my book. Calling it infantile shows the wrong kind of mindset. It's interesting and telling that you had this conversation in college, a time when people are caught between that teenage mindset and being an adult who wants to be taken seriously and seen as a grown up. Black metal then maybe seems a bit childish and presents the wrong message to your peers. I never have given a fuck about if others think I'm stupid for not giving up on metal. I have only ever embraced it the more and you know what, nobody actually cares. In fact, I find the opposite. People try to engage me on it because they 'used to be into it too'. Why apologise for the deadliness of corpsepaint? I never have and never will. It's all part and parcel.
You might have a point, but I've never been much into artwork, analysing lyrics etc. There's an element of laziness in that of course, but I'm happy enough with the choons as a stand alone element.
There are some exceptions, like Mael Mórdha, Drudkh etc but that's because I'm a history and geography nerd, and that kind of stuff appeals to my personal interests and happen to coincide with music I enjoy.
I'm absolutely and avowedly not a fan of the studs an spikes/biker gang element of underground metal but I think I'm increasingly aware of the need for some sort of aesthetic in Death Metal, though it doesn't necessarily have to be the same old same old. And if I see one more fucking shitty US "death metal" band pop up this week looking and sounding like a moshcore band (which 90% of them probably were a year ago) who've traded the crowd shots for gore lyrics, I'll vomit. Grow your hair, stop washing, give up the slam riffs.
I am a huge black metal fan too but again the imagery is secondary to the music.
Yep, I get what McLove is saying above. There's a whole worldview that goes part in parcel with the BM thing and the majority of people will.never 'get' it. Now, the seriousness of it all is open to absolute ridicule from afar, but how can you ridicule people who don't give a fuck that you're ridiculing them in the first place? There's a massive whiff of the zealot off of them(amongst the pig's blood and sweat) and they couldn't care less..well at least that's what we are led to believe.
And yes, the bland image makes no sense in a genre that is meant to be anything but bland. Taht's what I was getting at with 'caricature', but it's a poor word to use in fairness.
Quote from: Blackout on July 21, 2020, 10:44:58 AM
I am a huge black metal fan too but again the imagery is secondary to the music.
I'm not at all a huge BM fan but I really, thoroughly believe the lyrics and imagery are about 75% of what constitutes that music.
Could be the era I grew up in, but Black Metal is by definition music about the occult/satanism, it's fairly rigid in terms of that in a way that no other metal subgenre is. If you ain't playing by those terms, you can sound like Mayhem or whatever all you want, it's not Black Metal.
Are Wolves in the Throne (trend?) Room a black metal band? Or xasthur, AOP, Secrets of the Moon etc? I'd imagine they'd all self identify as such, but none of them have much of the imagery you'd expect (or demand?).
It's an interesting discussion, is there another sub genre of metal which you'd write off as not what they claim to be based on non musical elements? Can four short haired lads in river island gear be a death metal band? I know that's a facetious example, but I think the question is valid.
At the same time would you include a band that doesn't really sound black metal in the genre because of their aesthetics?
I couldn't give that much of a bollocks as it's a genre I'm not mad about personally but as I said - generational thing. I grew up in an era where there was much talk of what did and didn't constitute "black metal" in zines at the time so that's informed my idea of it probably more than someone who came up in the 00s or past decade. But I'd think there's a wider musical palate if you have the occult feel and aesthetic in place yeah. there has to be a kind of air of mystery behind it I'd say. That's just me. It's an "I know it when I see it" thing. Wolves in the Throne Room are one of the few bands who definitely have it without singing about hailing the goat or whatever, dunno why they're seen as trendy. (though if "trendy" is going to get me a wad of cash on ebay for the demo, count me in!)
Whether the "elites" like it or not, all the big wigs of true cult grim BM are absolutely caricatures. They may prefer terms like "archetype", or whatever, but anyone endeavouring to embody an archetype is a caricature. That's not a judgment, or even a criticism, it's simply an observation on one aspect of the human condition, where the BM schtick is, in my opinion, a truly impressive manifestation of another. Some of the actors in that frost-bitten "play within the play" would admit this, some of the most truly nihilistic even (and beside the satanism/occultism/paganism, a space has to be left in BM for nihilism).
Quote from: Pentagrimes on July 21, 2020, 10:39:43 AM
And if I see one more fucking shitty US "death metal" band pop up this week looking and sounding like a moshcore band (which 90% of them probably were a year ago) who've traded the crowd shots for gore lyrics, I'll vomit. Grow your hair, stop washing, give up the slam riffs.
Haha so true...and if every metal publication could stop using the word brutal to describe them...that would be refreshing.
Came across this article by one of the lads in Gama Bomb ->
https://www.loudersound.com/features/metal-is-being-killed-by-cliches-i-know-because-i-am-one
Slight extension on the topic but an quite a view to take (Could black metal just shut up about winter?)..I don't buy his idea of cliches killing off the creation of "superstars" - why is this important, who cares? Or that it's killing off creation of genre bending/expanding music...the example of Vektor/Bölzer kill off a big chunk of his argument and with the sheer amount of saturation in terms of music creation, it's only a matter of time until we see the next set of creative mold-breakers. Sounds like he's more concerned about coverage on a mainstream scale.
That band 'Siorai Geimhreidh' from Wexford captures that type of nihilism very well when they were knocking about. Unreadable logo, unintelligible lyrics ya, but apart from that, 'we exist.' seemed to be their shtick.
I don't think WITTR are trendy, but it was one of those daft pun threads on the old board, someone put up 'Wolves in the Trend Room'. They made an appearance on the food one too, 'Waffles in the Throne Room' which was excellent :)
WIITR are aboslutely trendy girlfriend black metal. Don't mind the first two releases.
Reinkaos is shite cause it's jugga Gothenburg melodic death metal rather than the 2 black metal classics that came before it.
Fuck nearly all of the new crop of American death metal bands. Interchangeable shit.
As per usual, I agree with Andy's view point on the all encompassing art of black metal.
Quote from: open face surgery on July 21, 2020, 11:31:58 AM
WIITR are aboslutely trendy girlfriend black metal. Don't mind the first two releases.
Reinkaos is shite cause it's jugga Gothenburg melodic death metal rather than the 2 black metal classics that came before it.
Fuck nearly all of the new crop of American death metal bands. Interchangeable shit.
As per usual, I agree with Andy's view point on the all emcompassing art of black metal.
Girlfriend black metal? 🤣 WTF.
How does 'being jugga Gothenburg metal make it shite though? It's a similar argument people make about the black album. Not as good, and different, it's not shite though, is it?
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 21, 2020, 11:39:25 AM
Quote from: open face surgery on July 21, 2020, 11:31:58 AM
WIITR are aboslutely trendy girlfriend black metal. Don't mind the first two releases.
Reinkaos is shite cause it's jugga Gothenburg melodic death metal rather than the 2 black metal classics that came before it.
Fuck nearly all of the new crop of American death metal bands. Interchangeable shit.
As per usual, I agree with Andy's view point on the all emcompassing art of black metal.
Girlfriend black metal? 🤣 WTF.
How does 'being jugga Gothenburg metal make it shite though? It's a similar argument people make about the black album. Not as good, and different, it's not shite though, is it?
Ya that post reads like a 15 Yr just getting into black metal.
They changed their sound so it must be shit 🙄
'Jugga', that takes me back. Stupid, dismissive 'word'.
It's my opinion on the matter. I don't like that Gothenburg melodic sound across the board therefore I don't like the album. The fact that it is by a band that I love the previous two albums by makes it a higher fall from grace. That sound was already done into the ground by the time Reinkaos came out so a total shame. My presumption is that is also why some other people don't like it.
Perfectly descriptive word for that sound.
I like a lot of BM. Not really in on any new stuff though, but I've liked the 4 track sounding stuff and the more polished types over the years. I do think the whole aesthetic is important in a lot of ways, but if the trendy looking lads make a decent album, I'm still in. The traditional BM image only really works as well if there is something good about the music, and that can also be said about any genre. Industrial is a great genre for picking on in that regard. Lots of style over substance in there.
I still think the whole "you don't get it" is a load of shit though. I may not get what others do from it and may not be as invested in the scene but everyone "gets" stuff in their own way
I go by what is pleasing to my ear and do not go in for the entire artistic endeavor. I've always sought out the heaviest shit I could find and Black Metal hit that spot everytime. Theres also no denying that the 2nd wave of Black Metal is the peak musically.
Quote from: open face surgery on July 21, 2020, 11:50:03 AM
Gothenburg melodic sound
Ugh.
That description is enough to put me off almost anything, in keeping with the spirit in which this thread was conceived.
Is 'jugga' a less heavy form of "chugga"? (genuine question)
Same thing.
Is Djent still a thing? ;)
Djugga?
A djugga piss?
Jugganaut
Am happy for growing up in a god forsaken country, with no access to metal magazines, etc, so I got to listen to Black Metal bands before seeing any photos.........otherwise, if my first contact with the style was by looking at a bunch of lads posing in make up and costumes.......I'd just skip on much of my fave music of all times.
Which country?
Quote from: warhead on July 21, 2020, 10:43:23 PM
Am happy for growing up in a god forsaken country, with no access to metal magazines, etc, so I got to listen to Black Metal bands before seeing any photos.........otherwise, if my first contact with the style was by looking at a bunch of lads posing in make up and costumes.......I'd just skip on much of my fave music of all times.
:laugh: yeah, like is it super serious or a load of lads larping that got out of hand. I'm not sure we'll ever truly know.
Quote from: Pedrito on July 21, 2020, 11:05:06 PM
Quote from: warhead on July 21, 2020, 10:43:23 PM
Am happy for growing up in a god forsaken country, with no access to metal magazines, etc, so I got to listen to Black Metal bands before seeing any photos.........otherwise, if my first contact with the style was by looking at a bunch of lads posing in make up and costumes.......I'd just skip on much of my fave music of all times.
:laugh: yeah, like is it super serious or a load of lads larping that got out of hand. I'm not sure we'll ever truly know.
And it's for the better to just leave it at that - to never truly know :-)
Quote from: warhead on July 22, 2020, 02:37:57 AM
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 21, 2020, 10:52:50 PM
Which country?
Croatia
Dobro dosao:) Some of my best friends are from Belgrade, and when I asked one about metal bands in Serbia, he gave me the stock answer...'The only one is Riblia Zorba, brate moj, you must listen to Miroslav Ilic' 😂
Maybe you can tell me some good bands from Hrvatska, Srbija etc to check out :)
The Stone and May Result from Serbia are both good Caomhaoin. Second wave style BM.
Cheers lad:)
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 22, 2020, 06:30:54 AM
Quote from: warhead on July 22, 2020, 02:37:57 AM
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 21, 2020, 10:52:50 PM
Which country?
Croatia
Dobro dosao:) Some of my best friends are from Belgrade, and when I asked one about metal bands in Serbia, he gave me the stock answer...'The only one is Riblia Zorba, brate moj, you must listen to Miroslav Ilic' 😂
Maybe you can tell me some good bands from Hrvatska, Srbija etc to check out :)
Rhanks for the welcome :)
Riblja Corba is probably my fave band from the very young childhood, while Miroslav Ilic and similar is something that farmers were listening to when my grandmother was still young :)
What is your prefered style?
This is my fave band from the ex-Yugoslavian countries, Bloodbath:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvmWN35BzsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo-545HtCrM&t=189s
I like doom, black and 80s stuff, electronica too. I love EKV, whom I am sure you have heard of. I think every single one of them died of a heroin overdose! Idoli are a cool band too. I think that Kovac lad from Romania influenced all that new wave Yugoslav rock from the early 80s.
Miroslav Ilic, Toma Zdravkovic, Lepa Lukic etc are amazing when wrecked in a Kafana after many bottles of rakija. Everyone there seems to know the words to every folk song. Pay the band 1000 dinars and you'll get 20 minutes of music, like a flesh and bone jukebox!
Bloodbath are pretty good,total early entombed worship .
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 22, 2020, 05:09:18 PM
I like doom, black and 80s stuff, electronica too. I love EKV, whom I am sure you have heard of. I think every single one of them died of a heroin overdose! Idoli are a cool band too. I think that Kovac lad from Romania influenced all that new wave Yugoslav rock from the early 80s.
Miroslav Ilic, Toma Zdravkovic, Lepa Lukic etc are amazing when wrecked in a Kafana after many bottles of rakija. Everyone there seems to know the words to every folk song. Pay the band 1000 dinars and you'll get 20 minutes of music, like a flesh and bone jukebox!
Bloodbath are pretty good,total early entombed worship .
I am not much into bands like EKV, Idoli, Disciplina Kicme and similar......but I like some of EKV and respect them the most out of the bunch.
They were heavy heroin users, but don't think every single one of them died. 2 key members are dead though. The singer/guitar player/main composer died of some kind of cancer actually and the keyboardist had HIV, because of a dirty needle used when injecting.
The Stone/May Result was already a good shout out, they are possibly the most known band from the area.
You might check out Castrum from Croatia and Krv from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bustum from Croatia if you'd want to go to the more rawer side of things.
Doom was never present much in the region, you might check out Ashes You Leave from Croatia. They were on Morbid Records in the late 90's, I had a couple of CD's from them, but can't really remember how they sound really.
When saying you're into 80's, would this fit the description?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGX9BTb-Pns
Hvala :)
I will explore those bands, and you are right about EKV, I must have understood my friend poorly (my Serbian (Serbo-Croat? They seem identical languages bar the alphabet, is no more than novice level).
I've been to Serbia many times and I never found a metal bar, or very many metalheads at all there. Similar situation in Croatia?
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 22, 2020, 07:49:24 PM
Hvala :)
I will explore those bands, and you are right about EKV, I must have understood my friend poorly (my Serbian (Serbo-Croat? They seem identical languages bar the alphabet, is no more than novice level).
I've been to Serbia many times and I never found a metal bar, or very many metalheads at all there. Similar situation in Croatia?
There is a Metal bar in capital of Croatia, Zagreb called Valhalla. It is the only strictly Metal bar I know in the region. I've visited countless Serbian towns too, and have only seen Rock orientated places.
It is not like lovely Spain, where you can have 3-4 Metal bars in a semi big town :)
Yugoslavia had many rockers and punks in the past, as well as metalheads in the late 80's/early 90's, but it all fizzled out in the second half of the 90's.
Croatian and Serbian language is having many different words, but is 99% the same crap.
Yeah football hooliganism, shouting 'upi upi shiptare'at football matches and drink driving are big hobbies in Belgrade at least. Oh, and paying a few thousand dinars to get out of a speeding ticket :) No time for metal, just an encyclopaedic knowledge of their folk songs. I love it there, and I love them nonetheless.
Have you ever heard of Beerfest or the Orthodox Celts? I was astounded to see a concert attended by thousands there of a band dressed in kilts and Celtic shirts singing 'The Star of the County Down', and who are not from Tralee, but from Serbia! Incredible.
I've always thought Beldegrader was a good name for a metal band.
When I say always I mean literally within the last few seconds I made up that joke.
Quote from: Caomhaoin on July 22, 2020, 08:51:01 PM
Yeah football hooliganism, shouting 'upi upi shiptare'at football matches and drink driving are big hobbies in Belgrade at least. Oh, and paying a few thousand dinars to get out of a speeding ticket :) No time for metal, just an encyclopaedic knowledge of their folk songs. I love it there, and I love them nonetheless.
Have you ever heard of Beerfest or the Orthodox Celts? I was astounded to see a concert attended by thousands there of a band dressed in kilts and Celtic shirts singing 'The Star of the County Down', and who are not from Tralee, but from Serbia! Incredible.
Yeah, football hooliganism is a pretty popular thing in the area. Was never into it, on the contrary to the drunk driving(not bragging in any case, justa saying).
Yeah, I know of the Beerfest and Orthodox Celts. You should know that Irish music and tradition is really popular and loved all around the world, so don't be surprised.
By the way, I've got a feeling we managed to derail the thread :)
Quote from: Ducky on July 17, 2020, 01:12:46 PM
To expand on Juggz saying that the newer stuff doesn't sound like Max era - I'd be pretty pissed if the old lineup was still together and they were pumping out lesser versions of their older albums.
Love it or loathe it, Steps have been making music on their own terms and I applaud them for (to go full circle with the thread) for not bowing to pressure. Again, Kisser seems to come up with as many cool riffs as he has morning pisses and Cassagrande is that type of musician that makes me think "I'll never be that good".
Edit - was gonna fix my typo, but left it for comedic effect :abbath:
(Late to the party and have been reading the thread seeing all the interesting replies).
Agree on this. I NEVER understood the logic that quite a few people use that without the Cavaleras it's 'not Sepultura'. Kisser is at least as crucial to their sound as Max and Igor were, he's been with the band since pretty early on (him not being the original guitarist is just nitpicking IMO), plays on all their classic records and helped to write most of their best known songs. Also he seems to be a musician of integrity who keeps it honest and does his own thing.
With regards to another post on the thread, I think the Tony Martin era 'Sabbath' albums are hindered by the fact that they have the Sabbath name on them - they're basically Iommi solo albums in all but name, and they would probably get re-evaluated more positively if they were put out as such. However, there is now a counter-argument I've observed - notably from American circles - that these albums are lost classics and Martin was one of the best singers Iommi ever had, which is going too far the other way IMO, as to my ears the albums are mostly pretty average and Martin while having an OK ability has no real distinctiveness in his voice. And live he was abysmal at times - he just couldn't get near the Ozzy material at all, at least not on the 1994 tour, although he did have some physical issues affecting him then. He also lacked stage presence. I don't deny he can sing, but the revisionist angle being peddled is wide of the mark.
I think it's kinda telling that they replaced Max the vocalist but not Max the rhythm guitarist. Sure Paolo Jr. didn't record his own bass tracks until Chaos AD because Kisser did it instead.
As far as I'm concerned, Sepultura is Kisser's band.
Quote from: Ducky on July 24, 2020, 02:07:05 PM
I think it's kinda telling that they replaced Max the vocalist but not Max the rhythm guitarist. Sure Paolo Jr. didn't record his own bass tracks until Chaos AD because Kisser did it instead.
As far as I'm concerned, Sepultura is Kisser's band.
Sure Max had ne'er a string on his anyway so there was nothing to replace
Quote from: Ducky on July 19, 2020, 12:10:49 PM
I love Robinson's production, you can hear everything correctly, the drums are fucking huge.
He's an interesting one for this thread, I've always heard how he makes band's sound polished and blah blah blah. Isn't sounding polished the goal of getting him in as a producer?
I remember someone I knew complaining that ATD-I's 'Relationship of Command' was clean-sounding. Yeah, they're a moderately successful commercial band, this is their breakthrough record and the one that you first heard... so job done?
I can't speak for the ATD-I record as I've not heard much of it but Ross Robinson was if I recall the quintessential nu metal producer, and as such I associate him with records that sound muddy and crap with no dynamics or interesting ambience. Roots is a prime example, the production is woeful. I also don't think his antagonistic studio working methods did much to soothe the growing disharmony in the band at the time.
Then again, Roots is an abysmal album in general. The tribal influences and sounds are by far the most interesting part of it, adding welcome dynamics and textures to the record. The problem is that the music played by Sepultura themselves is dire.
There have been mentions in this thread of Seps taking on various influences over their career, reflected in their touring partners etc. Chaos AD was a good example of this working well - it got derided by the thrash purists, but that was my first introduction to Sepultura and it's a truly great album with some thought-provoking lyrics and a real sense of driving, righteous anger and standing up to injustice, worked in with tribal and other influences. It's still a classic of the 90s I think.
With Roots, though, the primary influence is blatantly Korn. I don't know whose idea it was to go down this road, but I'm willing to bet it was Max's. He seems in general to have lost his mind or had some kind of breakdown in the mid 90s, as all of a sudden he started dressing like Jonathan Davis, downtuning and writing simplistic riffs, and taking on the nu-metal approach of vocal screaming. The result is one of the fastest artistic declines of any band I can think of. Apart from Roots Bloody Roots and Spit the whole album is just a complete dirge, full of Korn style downtuned guitars, two-note riffs and no hooks or exciting moments. The absolute nadir is the complete mess that is Lookaway - just dire.
The lyrics aren't great either, they again highlight social injustice but not in the 'raise your fists' attitude of Chaos AD, instead taking on a much more bleak/nihilistic tone. This vibe carries over into the album in general. BTR/Arise/Chaos AD had anger and bleakness, but they seem to be much more cathartic listening experiences. Roots is just claustrophobic and depressing, and there seems to be very little catharsis at all. There's just no direction or velocity to the record, it's dreary and oppressive.
Some people claim it isn't a nu-metal album, but it so blatantly is. IMO Sepultura went from leaders to followers almost overnight with this album, and full credit to the band for recovering from it and producing worthwhile music again since then. Max himself seemed not to really recover from this period until about 2004/05 when Soulfly suddenly stopped remaking Roots endlessly and started producing stuff of merit.
Back to the topic in hand, I've noticed that in music in general it sometimes becomes the fashion to not cite a band's most popular record as its best one as that's "the easy choice". The problem is that sometimes the most obvious choice is the correct one.
A prime example is Nirvana. Critical lists tend to just include Nevermind, so in response there's been something of a move towards In Utero being the "connoisseur's choice" and the band's true masterpiece (some people also go further and say Bleach is the best as it's the rawest). While my own personal favourite is the Unplugged album, I got into this frame of mind so gave Nevermind and In Utero a relisten. Nope. Despite the (very strong) high points of In Utero, Nevermind is the better album in terms of flow, consistency of songwriting, production and the overall package. I have to go with the critical consensus on this one, no matter how "unoriginal" it might be.
Other bands this applies to for me are Pearl Jam (Ten is by far their best from what I've heard), Led Zeppelin (used to go along with the thoughts of some critics that LZ I was the best, but eventually had to admit it's Physical Graffiti, followed by LZ IV), and Primordial (TTND is their high point, and also what got me into the band in the first place).
Sometimes the most popular album is popular because it really is the band's masterpiece.
I have no comment to make on any of the other bands but for me, Spirit the Earth Aflame was my introduction to Primordial and I'd consider it their best. Might be a case of whichever album you happened to jump in on?
TTND is a great album but I think TGW is more interesting (from that newer style they moved into) and I think the most recent one is better as well. I haven't listened to TTND in years, in fact. I should remedy that.
Interesting take there, CE. I agree and disagree.
In Utero is legitimately my fave Nirvana album (and it has my favourite songs of theirs - Milk It, Heart-Shaped Box and Tourette's) as I just prefer the messier style of it. I'm not shitting on Nevermind, I still listen to it and it's still a 9/10 experience. I do agree that there are people that do shit on it though. I knew a guy that didn't consider it a "true" Nirvana album... what the actual fuck? And if you didn't know Sappy then you weren't a "real" fan. Fuck off, mate.
At the same time I consider albums like Ten, Master of Puppets, Reign in Blood, etc. to be their respective bands' best albums.
I don't see anything wrong with Nevermind whatsoever. The only reason anyone says anything bad about it is because Kurt Cobain said he felt it was too polished and all of the lads who can't think for themselves jumped on to that bandwagon. I place all of the Nirvana albums on equal footing as I know them inside out and I'm no longer able to be objective about them. Sappy is some tune by the way.
I love Nevermind but In Utero to me is the best Nirvana album in terms of songwriting and pure raw anger. Nevermind was definitely the most radio friendly.
I've never rated Bleach.
I never quite understood that comment about Nevermind sounding polished - In Utero is just as polished sounding, it's the style of song writing that sounds different.
Nevermind is way more polished than In Utero. The production is grea. It really works and a noisier production wouldn't improve it to my ear, but In Utero sounds rougher around the edges.
Any of you ever listen to the Smart Studio sessions from pre Nevermind? They are a bit rougher and sound great. Chad Channing on the drums for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jblV4B1YsLg
I'll go a step further and bring up the Ted Ed Fred demo. Dale Crover drumming. A masterpiece. They used the versions from this for Bleach and the Incesticide comp. I think Downer was rerecorded. There was a much higher quality version of this on youtube but can't find it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc811RZqtGo
Also there was a video made for If You Must: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRRdmo1KK5k
And Paper Cuts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2dcjXpgIlc
I've actually never seen those two videos before. I actually only discovered lately that Crover played on a lot of Bleach via the demos. I had always just thought it was rerecorded with Channing on it all.
I remember as a young fella I couldn't get enough Nirvana no matter what and the likes of those videos would have been like the holy grail. Any version of any song with even the slightest difference from the album take and I'd have been all over it like a rash. I had a shitty quality bootleg called Outcesticide that I wore away to nothing listening to it. They had a cover of a song called D7 on there and I used to think it was the most energetic thing I'd ever heard
D7 was a Wioers cover, B-side to Lithium. Cracking tune, their best cover IMO. I always liked the original version of In Bloom, I think it was on a Sub Pop sampler. It had a more scuzzy, 'grungy' sound to it:
https://youtu.be/xAy---wp_DQ
I never cease to be amazed at how many great B-Sides Nirvana have had over the years. I feel we have finally heard the lot though with the last thing of him messing around on his guitar at home a couple of years ago.
I used to love that feeling of knowing with any given band that there was a goldmine of stuff I'd never heard before. Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails have so much stuff like that, and it used to be right difficult to track down. That really added to the mystique around getting into bands back in the day. Bit too easy to hear everything by anyone ever now, but I'd still rather be able to listen to it all than not.
Speaking of group think, I wonder how much of Nirvana's enduring popularity is down to the fact that he shot himself? Would we see the albums in a different light now if there had been subsequent releases and changes in direction/personnel over the years. The fact they were so short-lived sort of lends a timelessness to the music in a way. Maybe if they had simply called it a day after In Utero and never came back it would have had the same effect..
Why did Varg kill him?
Why not?
Quote from: Eoin McLove on July 27, 2020, 07:49:52 PM
Why did Varg kill him?
Something to do with a dildo with shit on it IIRC
Dem gangbangaz h8 de shildo.
Something not many people know is that Cobain's famous quote "It's better to burn out than to fade away" is actually a Varg lyric: "Hvis belus tar burzum austan tar filosofem engang var." :abbath: :abbath:
I hear varg is courtney love in disguise.
Or liquid in a man shaped glass.
Quote from: astfgyl on July 27, 2020, 07:27:49 PM
I never cease to be amazed at how many great B-Sides Nirvana have had over the years. I feel we have finally heard the lot though with the last thing of him messing around on his guitar at home a couple of years ago.
I used to love that feeling of knowing with any given band that there was a goldmine of stuff I'd never heard before. Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails have so much stuff like that, and it used to be right difficult to track down. That really added to the mystique around getting into bands back in the day. Bit too easy to hear everything by anyone ever now, but I'd still rather be able to listen to it all than not.
Speaking of group think, I wonder how much of Nirvana's enduring popularity is down to the fact that he shot himself? Would we see the albums in a different light now if there had been subsequent releases and changes in direction/personnel over the years. The fact they were so short-lived sort of lends a timelessness to the music in a way. Maybe if they had simply called it a day after In Utero and never came back it would have had the same effect..
The later released Been A Son (not the incesticide version) turned out to be one of my top 5 favourite Nirvana songs.
Is that the one from the Best Of with the black cover? If it is the one I'm thinking of, that tune also went up 20 times in my estimation with the new mix.
That's the one aye.
Quote from: astfgyl on July 27, 2020, 07:27:49 PM
I used to love that feeling of knowing with any given band that there was a goldmine of stuff I'd never heard before. Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails have so much stuff like that, and it used to be right difficult to track down. That really added to the mystique around getting into bands back in the day. Bit too easy to hear everything by anyone ever now, but I'd still rather be able to listen to it all than not.
I used to be like that with doom bands. For years Saint Vitus records were absolutely unobtainable, and as I didn't download music in the 00s due to being on dial up connection I used to absolutely scour the record shops for albums by them. I found a copy of V on vinyl for a tenner once, but slim pickings otherwise. It blew my mind when I could find it on Youtube, and even more so when renewed interest in the band led to all of their albums being reissued in some form. I scratch that urge to track down stuff by getting live bootlegs now, although they're easier to find too now I've got broadband and Youtube. Not complaining though.....
Yep, for all its faults the intermet is an absolute treasure trove for the music lover. Amazing the stuff that is available now
The internet killed off the viability of my dream job (my own record shop), but it's increased my exposure and knowledge of music exponentially.
Even before steaming was a thing, I'd spend a bit of time sitting in the computer lab in college reading up on bands (the heady days of AllMusic dot com), take a few notes on what albums to look for, similar bands, etc.
Now, access to 21 million songs for 10 quid a month? Don't mind if I do.
Quote from: Ducky on July 29, 2020, 03:56:43 AM
Now, access to 21 million songs
oh god, what about all the ones I'm missing the iceberg the iceberg
In the early days Carcass's and Cradle Of Filth's lyricism really grabbed me. Midian took a few listens do to what they did musically.
Cradle - much like Ghost - always seem to piss off the right people. Finding the music garbage is completely fine, but they put the wind up the real metulz gatekeepers something rotten, and it's always hilarious. I love Cradle of Filth. They've gone through too many line up changes and put out way too many unnecessary albums - I struggle to name them all myself - so the quality control's out the window but they're a laugh. I imagine Dani Filth lives on cans of Carling and bangers and mash but then he's also a lyricist of serious repute with a fine understanding of his band's place in extreme metal lore.
Tell you what, they do the best Hallowed Be Thy Name.
Financially I'd say he's doing alright. The best of them anyhow.as they would just be on a salary I'd say.
I lost interest in them in the late '90s when it seemed they were more about churning out hundreds of T-shirts than music.
Went back to Dusk and her Embrace numerous times over the last few weeks due to either this or some other thread on here. Spectacular album.
Has anyone checked out the cruelty and the beast remix?
Its absolutely unreal.
By far their best album imo.
Quote from: open face surgery on July 31, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Went back to Dusk and her Embrace numerous times over the last few weeks due to either this or some other thread on here. Spectacular album.
It really is incredible. Far and away their best outing.
Yeah it's deadly. Must pick up Principle at some stage. I liked Cruelty at the time but it's ultimately a bit of a pale version of Dusk.
Quote from: Blackout on July 31, 2020, 11:59:03 AM
Quote from: open face surgery on July 31, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Went back to Dusk and her Embrace numerous times over the last few weeks due to either this or some other thread on here. Spectacular album.
It really is incredible. Far and away their best outing.
The bass tone is unreal
Edit - that bit in Red Roses for the Devil's Whore with the airy keyboards and bass where the wee fella says "nocturnal pulse... " Just perfect :abbath:
As is the actual playing.
The title track is my favourite off the album followed closely by asunder. The breakdown into "dusk and her embrace" has me head banging without warning.