Tropes, Clichés, metal group think

[Ducky]

Nah, Manowar have always been a really bad joke. But of course, I was told I was a false because well oiled fellas doing the fantasy stuff doesn't do it for me.

There's one that bugs me - Dio. He was obviously a great vocalist, but what did he use his voice to sing about? Complete bollocks that was carefully  marketed towards nerds/neckbeards. The Dio years of Sabbath are some sort of proto - something - rock. Inexcusable shite of the highest order. My toes curl every time I hear the little cunt.

[Ducky]

Being conscious of not letting this turn into the controversial opinions thread, I've always been met with derision when I express distaste for Motorhead.

A blues rock band with a bit more balls than usual. Sorry if not wanting to lick Lemmy's warts means I'm not a true fan of metal...

[Pedrito]

Manowar went cringy with time alright, but lets not forget their first two albums: one is a pinacle of American Heavy Metal and the other one is among the main musical influences to Bathory... 

I now understand that in Ireland there's a certain sentiment towards more eccentric bands, but for me that's precisely the point: being the embodiment of your work. There's a reason why a stage - as well as a church altar - is a step above the audience and that's because you're supposed to experience something extraordinary. And it's not that everything up there needs to be utterly coherent, it's what it evokes in you that should matter IMO. I am all for props on stage when it's done right...Watain's stage completely on fire for example is the real deal, but canons shooting fire in pentagram shape behind a lad dressed like a casual dad does look quite silly.

I agree completely. It's the bigness of it all that makes it metal. Irish people are very uncomfortable with a whole lot of things, most especially flamboyancy and overt displays of passion. In Spain where I live, the fact that a lad would dress up and look well is seen as very masculine. It takes guts to do it I suppose is the idea. Manowar follows that way of thinking. I also yhink their earlier albums are excellent, they were innovators and risk takers in their own time, completely eschewing formula and were out on their own doing their own thing.

And yeah, it's going to turn into the controversial thread Ducky, we get you don't like old school rock/metal. Zepellin a 'pub-rock' band and now Motörhead. Millions would disagree. But, that said, it raises a fair point about clichés and tropes and about WHAT you are expected to be into to be considered being into metal I suppose.

[Juggz]

Early Manowar is still amazing, nothing quite like them. I love everything up to The Triumph of Steel. Beyond that, just awful.

I didn't get into Led Zeppelin until they put out DVD. Once I picked that up and spent time with it, it all fell into place.

Motorhead, though... there's a really good double album to be made from their career but they had so, so much filler. The deification of Lemmy is embarrassing at this stage. He was a character, for sure, but the worship is fucking cringe central. They strike me as something like the Ramones, where there are more people wearing their t-shirts than ever gave a fuck about their music.

[Pedrito]

Ah I get what you're both saying now. Yep, the God thing is a bit much alright. I personally just really like Dio, Motörhead have had their great moments and Manowar have some excellent albums. I love the Ramones too  but I can see how it just annoys the shite out of people, because, honestoy, Metallica has become that thing now also, and it's horrible to watch.

If, however, it's to do with their lyrics and flamboyance, that's when I start to have an issue. A lad singkng about dragons is no different to some serious looking lad singing about some black magic stuff. It could be interpreted equally as ridiculous I suppose is my point, and yet I like my metal ridiculous, it's not meant to conform.

[Carnage]

Motorhead, though... there's a really good double album to be made from their career but they had so, so much filler.

Fair. Overkill is brilliant, one of my favourite albums and not a filler track to be found, but I've never been bothered about picking up any other of their albums. No Remorse maybe, a solid compilation of their best early stuff but even the likes of Ace Of Spades, Bomber, Iron Fist etc. have filler aplenty.

[Ducky]

And yeah, it's going to turn into the controversial thread Ducky, we get you don't like old school rock/metal. Zepellin a 'pub-rock' band and now Motörhead. Millions would disagree. But, that said, it raises a fair point about clichés and tropes and about WHAT you are expected to be into to be considered being into metal I suppose.

It's not that I'm adverse to old school rock and metal. Would still listen to Bon Scott-era AC/DC and Mk. 2 Deep Purple all day long, ditto a lot of the other standards. Sure I posted Heart - Dog and Butterfly in the Now Playing thread the other day. Ace of Spades was released before I was born and my discovery of metal has been a largely personal thing, so I'm experiencing all these bands with very little outside opinion and judging them on what's coming from my speakers and nothing else.

But I've genuinely been told I'm not a "real" metal fan (whatever the fuck that's supposed to be) for not being into Motorhead (but the same lad would never have even heard of say Autopsy or Candlemass, for instance - bands that are 100% "metal" - Motorhead are for all intents and purposes a scuzzy blues band).

I have a few of their albums and there's some cracking songs between them (Bomber, Overkill, Poison, Damage Case, a few others), but as Juggz mentions, it's their position and how high they're held that I have the issue with. There's absolutely nothing remarkable about the music and their catalogue is largely forgettable.

Is it their influence on Metallica that elevates their status? Why aren't say Diamond Head held in the same regard? Or was it Lemmy's "punk" way of life and giving zero fucks that's the appeal? Listening to Motorhead aligns you with that sort of mentality?

I just don't understand the appeal or reverence for them.

[astfgyl]

Yeah Sneap's sound doesn't happen by accident, and the album's he produced for Nevermore sound so much better than the ones he didn't. I think his cold, clinical style suits their music to a T.

What put me off Sneap was when I joined his FB recording techniques page, and I came to realise that when the vocals are comped and autotuned, the drums are all replaced, the bass is clean DI re-amped and quadrupled, the guitars are all treated like the bass, then false low-end added after the fact and all that, that there isn't a whole lot of the original character left. It's for that reason that I don't buzz off it, even when it actually sounds good it's all a bit too polished. I understand that is the general way of things these days and also in previous times, but it was through the dissection of his techniques that my ears were opened up to that sort of thing.

I also can fully understand why say the likes of myself or other bedroom production enthusiasts might do things like that because it takes a bit of the shitness off recording with a shitty laptop through shitty gear but I would expect the big studio names to be capturing a bit more of the actual magic than a clean DI of the respective performances and doing all the rest after. Maybe I'm being unfair on Sneap by singling him out, but it certainly isn't because I've been swayed by any general opinion on the sterility of his productions. I actually mentioned in another thread that I like the sound of KSE's Alive.. and that was him at the helm.

I see Motorhead mentioned again and I feel the same as others have said in that some of it is very good but a lot of it is neither here nor there.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Incidentally, as good as the songs on the Hell comeback album were, all the above is one primary reason why Satan's was just so much better.

[ldj]

Rick Beato has a good video on how sterile Rock music production has become in the last 20 or so years. Everything is played to a click, quantised and drums are replaced with samples. So by the end every verse and chorus is the same speed and the beat of every drum sounds the exact same. It's bizarre because acceleration should be a quality of rock music, obviously you want good timing but if a band is playing an upbeat rock/metal song and they managed to stay at the exact same bpm throughout you'd think they have no energy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFaRIW-wZlw

[Pedrito]

Yes it's something that existed back recording analogue too. Playing to a click. It's hard to know if it ever works properly. Some stuff can be done to it and other songs just die.

Good story of Kurt Cobain trying for ages to play I think the song is 'Something in the way' to a click. They were going round in circles and it was sounding crap and they were all getting frustrated. They take a break and Kurt is strumming lying upside down on a sofa in the studio and quietly singing it to himself and Butch Vig tells him not to move, forget the click and records him as he is. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Another cliché/metal group think that was going around for years was an acceptance of a band like AIC, while Nirvana were seen as sellouts and hated. I know loads of people wrote them off without hardly ever listening to anything more than a handful of songs, albeit repeatedly. A great, great band, and when they were intense and heavy they'd give the majority a run for their money.

[Ducky]

In my youthful idiocy, I wrote off Nirvana - despite the fact Smells Like is what made me sit up and think "right, I need to check out guitar music" and In Utero was the second CD I ever bought (after Ride the Lightning)... all this despite me being balls deep in bands such as AiC, Pearl Jam, etc.

Thankfully I copped the fuck on pretty quickly and still listen to their discography on the regular to this day. Was planning on listening to the two Chat Pile EPs later, so may stick on Bleach after those.

[open face surgery]

Oddly, I was listening to Nevermind today for the first time in a few years and picked up on loads of little production features I hasn't noticed before. Incredible band and an incredible album.

A mate in his mid 40s sent me an Alice in Chains track the last day and made sure to note "doom not grunge". ha. Case in point.

[Blackout]

Nirvana are and always will be one of my favourite band.

Many an argument I've had with metallers over how songwriting trumps technical ability because Nirvana songs are easily played. Never got that mentality at all.

[Pedrito]

It's not how technical you play, it's how well you play. Give me a Nirvana or a Megadeth or an Atheist and as long as they're in the pocket and playing comfortably I'm happy out.