Tropes, Clichés, metal group think

[Pedrito]

Hetfield was trying to find a way to sing and I'm not sure when he started lessons etc but certainly by the Black album that was the major change. On the Year and a Half videos Bob Rock basically brings out a whole new way of singing that I hadn't really associate with Justice..must give it a buzz. The oohs and aahhs were a kind of way to make up for his lack of range etc, and place a distinct, unmistakable mark on him.

Unfortunately it spawned a monster and now we have Papa Het and all that corny shite.

[Ducky]

I gave Roots a quick flick there this morning and I still like the vast majority of it.

If anything, it's biggest problem seems to be its pacing - having Jasco and Istari right next to each other and in the back end of the album too. And I always remember thinking Dictatorshit was slapped on as a bonus track as it feels like the album could've ended before it and boom, there it goes, plus it would've had more impact in the first third of the album.

My own favourites are Arise, Beneath the Remains and Chaos AD in that order. I honestly don't rate the first two (they're interesting from a formative perspective at least) and I'm in the "Greene era has been consistently good to great without being classic, but how many classics do most bands have in them anyway, it's hardly his fault" camp.

[Eoin McLove]

"Recorded to 2" tape" is a current cool underground trend/ virtue signal that fills me with trepidation.  Oh,  they are recoding to tape,  they must be good! The same 20 year olds who "only listen to 80s metal!". Gimps.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!

[open face surgery]

Completely agree with Andy on both points above.

Gonna lash on Roots later. Prometheus yesterday and now Vempire and Cruelty today have been very rewarding revisits. That said, I was really into them when I was younger, was never really into Roots.

[Ducky]

That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!

Yeah I didn't think much of Against but thought it was passible in the sense that the band could've just as easily called it quits without Max; very much the sound of a band in turmoil. And as you say, Max leaving removed a lot of what people don't like about Roots from the band.

I think the Greene era took a few albums to really get going, but everything in the last 15 years has been well worth it. In fact Quadra from only this year is a cracker.

Kisser is probably one of the most consistent players in the genre and Cassagrande is as creative and powerful as Igor in his prime. I get that they don't sound like classic Sepultura, but that's okay as they're not the same band but they're still making music on their own terms. 

https://youtu.be/vV4t9vnuhLM

[Pedrito]

Listening to Roots here and it's nothing if not unique. For me Sepultura brought something to metal that has never been replicated. Now bear with me, if we look a lot of metal, much of the newer stuff included, it appeals to a certain look, a certain feel. For me the satan stuff felt old even in the 90's. It amazes me that bands like Gorgoroth, Watain, Behemoth and these types of bands are seen as edgy when, for me, it's simply more of the same old thing being rehashed. BUT, that's a taste thing and there is certainly some outstanding music and albums that have been done in that vein. In many ways, it is what metal is and we're never getting away from it.

Maybe, I'm just a contrarian and that's why I was drawn to bands from Florida like Cynic and Atheist, Death, MA even. Seps hit that sweet spot..something found somewhere in the mid-Atlantic. Bands with a little less Europe in them, but not too much Murica in them either. I think a metal band that could capture  THAT(whatever that is) could easily be huge again.

[open face surgery]

I am in the middle of Ratamahatta. Def unique. haha. It's essentially a big mess of an album and I can't see myself going back anytime soon but it's grand. More of a Soulfly album than a Sepultura album.

[Juggz]

That's a good point; if there is a group-think reflex around Sepultura, it's much more the idea that nothing post-Max is worth checking out at all. Since Roots was a step down, the tacit presumption was always that, without Max, it must have been even worse...even though another way of looking at it is that a decent part of what people hated about Roots went with Max and was poured all over Soulfly. And, incidentally, I'm totally guilty of this; have never spent time with any Greene era Sep, because I thought the single Choke, back in the day, was crap, essentially. Sorry to Juggz and co who constantly praise some of the latter albums!

😂 No problem, I agree with you on Choke.

For me, Against was weak and Nation was even worse, all the bad parts of Roots but few of the (admittedly sparse) good bits, and I can understand why people turned off. They found something with Roorback, though, which I rate without saying it's a great album. They stopped trying to be latter-era Max Sepultura, moved on, took some bold musical chances and started a series of albums, some of which I would rank higher than much of the Max stuff. Dante XXI and Machine Messiah are up with BTR for me, albums where every song is essential to the whole. Quadra feels like another one but it's too soon to say with certainty. Dante, in particular, where they used french horn and cello on a good few songs, is a great creative statement, that album blew me away when it came out because it doesn't sound like anything else, especially old Sepultura. It doesn't sound like Max era but, as far as I'm concerned, who would want a band to sound the same all the time? It has been done and done well. Nobody, including any version of Sepultura, is going to do a better BTR than the original so why bother sticking to that sound or retreading that old ground? Greene era Seps is like current era Voivod, for me. They don't sound like the old days but they have enough of the old sound and vibe while still finding fresh and creative avenues to explore, this late into their careers, which keeps me in my happy place.

For what it's worth, I fucking loved Sepultura when I came across them with BTR, saw them on that tour and they were fucking immense. I love the Max era, excluding Roots which is a fucking shitshow, let's be honest. Since that, he has been fucking pathetic but, in his youth, he was peerless.

I an happy all versions if the band have existed, we are richer for all of their efforts

[Pedrito]

Right, no more messing around. Time to listen to Dante and Machine Messiah on that recommendation.

[Juggz]

Fair play. The only thing I would say is to try to hear them as contemporary metal albums, not Max Sepultura albums and you should, hopefully, find much to enjoy in them 

[Pedrito]

Yes, I'm really going to have to push through the vocals here because that style would normally see me reaching for the skip button. Listening to Phantom Self here, cool tune.

[Ducky]

To expand on Juggz saying that the newer stuff doesn't sound like Max era - I'd be pretty pissed if the old lineup was still together and they were pumping out lesser versions of their older albums.

Love it or loathe it, Steps have been making music on their own terms and I applaud them for (to go full circle with the thread) for not bowing to pressure. Again, Kisser seems to come up with as many cool riffs as he has morning pisses and Cassagrande is that type of musician that makes me think "I'll never be that good".

Edit - was gonna fix my typo, but left it for comedic effect 

[Pedrito]

Was thinking these lads must be Yes fans with that album title and then hearing Iceberg Dances. I knew they were Rush fans and there's definitely a nice smell of Vapor Trails era Rush off some of the stuff. This album might just be what I'm looking for tbh. Quick google reveals Kisser a massive Yes fan and the album title a dedication..fuck yes!

[Grim Reality]

To stay on Sepultura and somewhat on topic, I remember around the time of Roots Metal Hammer were bigging them up as the sort of culmination of metal, the best of the best. The early stuff by them was sort of presented as a bit amateurish, slightly embarrassing.

I bought a 2cd version of Roots which had old demos, live tracks etc on it. By far the track which intrigued me the most, which I felt drawn to was a demo of Necromancer, off Morbid Visions. But because I believed the old stuff was supposed to be a bit shit I didn't follow up on that moment of clarity until much much later.

Seps a prime example of a band that got worse with each release. Arise the last good one. That's objective fact lads!