Tropes, Clichés, metal group think

[Eoin McLove]

As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time,  while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive,  much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.

And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.

[Blackout]

So many excellent points on this discussion except for you misguided chaps that don't appreciate how totally brilliant Motörhead are. I love them and I know a lot of it sounds the same but they are still a top 5 band for me.

Stunning and brave. 

[Juggz]

I think even Mustaine, who'd tell you he taught his own mother how to give birth if he thought he could get away with it, limited himself to saying he had to correct Friedman's rhythm playing on some riffs. His strategy for being the best "something" guitarist was to stake his claim to greatest rhythm player; more important to beat James than Kirk, who he just decided was shite, although "did his best with what he knows how to do" haha.

Didn't he say he sang Friedman's solos to him, at one point, trying to take credit for their composition? 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I think even Mustaine, who'd tell you he taught his own mother how to give birth if he thought he could get away with it, limited himself to saying he had to correct Friedman's rhythm playing on some riffs. His strategy for being the best "something" guitarist was to stake his claim to greatest rhythm player; more important to beat James than Kirk, who he just decided was shite, although "did his best with what he knows how to do" haha.

Didn't he say he sang Friedman's solos to him, at one point, trying to take credit for their composition? 

You wouldn't put it past him. And was he talking about the Megadeth or Cacophony solos? 

[Blackout]

Mustaine must've made him very angry. From Friedman to Boiledman you could say.

[Pedrito]

Sure the ring-leader thinks the creators of No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand are a "beginner" band, so I wouldn't worry about it too much 

Frightening viewpoint really..I've been debating with myself as to how to respond for days now 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

In My Time of Dying, kids' stuff really 

[Pedrito]

As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time,  while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive,  much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.

And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.

This is a great point. Yes, I've mocked BM in my lifetime but I also admire all.of the above about it. And I see Dio and Priest and Manowar in a similar light...they're meant to be caricatures or over the top or whatever term we want to use..larger than life and better for it.

[Pedrito]

In My Time of Dying, kids' stuff really 

Sure I was writing that stuff when I first picked ip the guitar..djangalanglang, bobs your uncle, piece of piss

[Ducky]

Sure the ring-leader thinks the creators of No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand are a "beginner" band, so I wouldn't worry about it too much 

Guilty as charged

[Pedrito]

 

[Grim Reality]

As a huge black metal fan I'm all for cliches and tropes being used. I had a go at Ollkiller a while ago for 'not getting' BM, which I stand by. I think that cringing or apologising for the more ludicrous elements of BM is to miss half the point. The theatrical element was integral to setting it apart from the more modern sounding and looking stuff of the early 90s and going back to an earlier time,  while also pushing the music back into the shadows. In a way it was sort of paradoxical, as much due to the naivety that seems to be an essential ingredient in forward looking extreme metal. The imagery was theatrical and yet repulsive,  much like the actual music which was grand (in the non-Irish sense), austere, pompous and elitist. I find the blandification of a lot of modern black metal imagery- usually moreso by bands who refer to themselves as 'blackened'!- to be firing way off the mark. Black metal is all about the combination of faux medieval imagery, cheap and nasty artwork and a timeless, or even backwards musical fascination. At least, it is for me.

And I say that as someone who has explored its possibilities to a fairly wide extent. And yes, there are some exceptions.

This is a great point. Yes, I've mocked BM in my lifetime but I also admire all.of the above about it. And I see Dio and Priest and Manowar in a similar light...they're meant to be caricatures or over the top or whatever term we want to use..larger than life and better for it.

Not a clue do you have about BM.

Over the top, caricature......

Shit.

Not a notion. But that's fair enough. It's a style only certain people 'get'. And thats just the way it is. I'm aware this post may seem elite or whatever but that's not it either.

Genuinely not having a go at you by the way.

[Pedrito]

Yeah probably chose the wrong words, and I'm a fairweather fan if truth be told. Not to worry man, I won't be losing sleep over it. I think McLoves post captured all that needed to be said.

[astfgyl]

Only some people can "get" BM.

Can't that be said for any genre that somebody sees differently than we do ourselves? Like I could say anything about it for right or wrong and it might be said I just don't get it. "I don't like Goregrind, the words 'over the top' and 'caricature' spring to mind" .... "Ah you know fuck all about it, only some can 'get' it"

Which album would anyone say encapsulates the BM genre, and why?

[Caomhaoin]

Dunno, I find the 'you don't get xy or z' a bit infantile to be honest. I enjoy certain BM releases, but I don't have any demo tapes from Singapore, and I cringe at a lot of the theatrics and stage antics. James from AOP said to me in college years back 'I love black metal, but outside of the music, it's a farcical genre'. I'd agree with that for the most part.

Relationship of Command has a razor sharp production, excellent call! That's going to be spun today n'all.

I got the impression that a lot of people wrote off 'Reinkaos' at the time just because that appeared to be the consensus at the time, lots of hyperbole being farted around. Solid album, I could never understand the hate for it, bar the fact that it's not as good as the two bona fide classics that came before it.