Tropes, Clichés, metal group think

[Pedrito]

Leather Mike in fairness wasn't a bad lad. He just fell into that 'train of thought' stype of ppsting whereby there was no filter and would post reams and reams of waffle.

Anyway, back to the thread.

I've been thinking this for a while:

The new Bölzer is incredible. However, (and I could be way off the mark on this one) it hints to me of a certain element of reining oneself back in. Hero was such a strong and brave move. It took a genre and went beyond it. Now don't get me wrong, Lese Majesty is really, really great, but thematically and stylistically is there an element of this 'feedback loop' at play? I couldn't help notice they.had been on tour with the likes of Behemoth and Primordial a and I wonder did that influence them away from their previous stance, to something darker, heavier and slightly more 'acceptable'?

Again, just shooting the shit here, but it's something I've been thinking for a while.

[Pedrito]

Regarding production (and I could be veering off topic here) I know a lot of people roll their eyes at the 'demos are the best' attitudes among certain metalheads, but I'm somewhere in the middle on this debate. I love the gestation phase of a lot of early black and doom bands in particular. Ulver are a brilliant example of perfectly straddling both worlds. The 'Vargnatt' demo is so unpolished with levels kind of flying all over the gaff and a brutish combination of jarring elements. It really demands the listener to come and meet it on its own terms. No doubt for some it's an unlistenable mess but for me it's a glorious mess and I'll be keeping it in mind with my own future recordings.  More wonk, please! At the same time their debut, 'Bergtatt', shows how all of those disparate elements can be brought together in a seamless way and it sounds great for that, too. There's more than one way to skin a cat, is the upshot, and from my standpoint a lot of the mischief and mayhem seems to have been washed out of the black and doom scenes in favour of a slick, professional (surely an oxymoron) finish. When executed well, that's great, but it has made a lot of bands sound interchangeable to me. It's one of the main reasons I'm spending so much more time digging into older stuff that I overlooked.  That early stage in extreme metal yielded so many exciting,  unorthodox results due in massive part to naivety, inexperience and ineptitude- the holy trinity of quality extreme metal!

Definitely huge value to be found in the earlier recordings of bands.

It strikes me as the age old conflict between the Dionysian and Appolonian that oul Nietzsche was talking about, though I mightn't be entirely accurate in how I interpret that either.

[astfgyl]

Interesting point about the production indeed. There is a lot of charm to be found in slightly wonky sounding things. Only tune I know by ATDI is One Armed Scissor and I don't mind the sound of that at all, so maybe RR does have his merits depending on the band. Maybe. Something like Andy Sneap's production for me is the ultimate in sucking the life out of something.

Also wasn't calling out Leather Mike, I often enjoyed the discussion with him. Just remembering that he was called out a few times for looking to fight lads in real life.

Paradise Lost get brought up a bit too often around here by me, but are they not the perfect example of what you were saying about Bolzer? They really went backwards over the years after going out on a limb with some of the albums. Akercocke, who I love, also did it with Antichrist, after the boundless experimentation of Words that go Unspoken...

[Ducky]

I know I'd enjoy Hero a lot more (well, at all) if it had a similar sound to Roman Acupuncture. My copy of Slaughter of the Soul has a few demo tracks and they sound a lot better than the album.

I also didn't like the production on Dead Cross, forgot it was Robinson.

[ochoill]

Overly polished production absolutely saps the life out of bands for me.  I like it to be clear and defined and all but fully agree it makes bands interchangeable it's done in that particular crispy clean way.  Some stuff it suits, fair enough, but for types of metal I go to I prefer a bit of grit on the product.  I'm not even talking as far out now as BM demos, but there's a middle ground that's perfect, and adds some level of character to it all.

Some odd examples.  How to sound clear and crisp but with the production having good slop, weight, and grit on it: Kowloon Walled City, "Greivances".  Neurosis' TSIB does it similar.  Godflesh "Hymns".
Actually on the Godflesh note, imagine "Streetcleaner" with technically better production - the album is fucked.  The impact would be lost.  Look at Mayhem, "Ordo Ad Chao" for a fantastic example of 'bad' production done well.  Absolutely soaked in atmosphere, and as said before, makes you approach it on its own terms.  I think we've already had this discussion elsewhere on the forum anyway.

[Ducky]

I love the sound of Ordo Ad Chao. It's murky as fuck but everything still sounds well defined

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I raised the personality of production thing recently in the Now listening thread. I'd been listening to earliest period and also mid period Sodom and Kreator. Those earliest releases define who those bands are, and as the production "improved" they sounded more and more alike, notwithstanding an intentional change in musical direction. Basically, with bad production, the songs are naked; as production is improved, there can be a trend for bands to sound like they all buy their clothes in the same place. But there is a space for proper "designer" production which retains all the personality of the songs, "merely" enhancing what is already there. Good music killed by generic production robes will come across better (to the discerning ear) in its naked, demo form, where available.

All that said, I think the production on Bölzer's releases follows an excellent evolution, but sure look it...

[Pedrito]

I'm only posing the question really. To my ears the new Bölzer is incredible

[Trev]

Linking it back to the original topic, I'd say it's a bit of a cliche that Sneap's production is too lifeless. He has a set sound alright but with the right bands it's great. He certainly improved Nevermores Enemies of Reality, the two Hell albums sound brilliant, so does the latest Judas Priest...once the bands have the songs he seems to get it right more than not

[Ducky]

Yeah Sneap's sound doesn't happen by accident, and the album's he produced for Nevermore sound so much better than the ones he didn't. I think his cold, clinical style suits their music to a T.

[Born of Fire]

I think people dismiss Manowar off hand because they have an image of them as a bunch of fannys in leather outfits that would make Halford cringe, singing about swords and dragons and shit and therefore miss out on 5 or 6 of the best 80s heavy metal albums recorded.

DeMaio does talk some awful bollocks though.

[Carnage]

I take them no more seriously that I do Spinal Tap or Bad News. At first, yes it was primarily for their image but I eventually gave their music a chance on its own merits. They're truly awful, and still a joke band as far as I'm concerned but I'd argue that their position as heavy metal stalwarts is maintained more by the true kvlt warriorz than your average metal fan - in my experience, at least - in an example of the group think of which we speak.

[Blackout]

I consider Ordo a really fantastic album in it's own right but it really doesn't sound like Mayhem. It sounds like if a Doom and Grindcore band got together and wrote an album.

[Pedrito]

I take them no more seriously that I do Spinal Tap or Bad News. At first, yes it was primarily for their image but I eventually gave their music a chance on its own merits. They're truly awful, and still a joke band as far as I'm concerned but I'd argue that their position as heavy metal stalwarts is maintained more by the true kvlt warriorz than your average metal fan - in my experience, at least - in an example of the group think of which we speak.

I completely get this way of thinking and, again, it's a taste thing, but I think you could easily look at the vast majority of metal and most especially extreme metal through the same lens. While I think Absu in the other thread are a very cool band, the levels of Spinal Tapisms are up there with Manowar. I'd include Ghost and Behemoth and Watain and plenty of those bands that use smoke machines and props in the same league. the fact that a lot of extreme metal IS so serious is what I'm getting at. And yet it's not a criticism, I'd just see it all as not too dissimilar.

[O Drighes]

Manowar went cringy with time alright, but lets not forget their first two albums: one is a pinacle of American Heavy Metal and the other one is among the main musical influences to Bathory... 

I now understand that in Ireland there's a certain sentiment towards more eccentric bands, but for me that's precisely the point: being the embodiment of your work. There's a reason why a stage - as well as a church altar - is a step above the audience and that's because you're supposed to experience something extraordinary. And it's not that everything up there needs to be utterly coherent, it's what it evokes in you that should matter IMO. I am all for props on stage when it's done right...Watain's stage completely on fire for example is the real deal, but canons shooting fire in pentagram shape behind a lad dressed like a casual dad does look quite silly.