100 days to go until they leave and it appears the UK is in utter disarray. How much of what is being said about food shortages and having the troops mobilized -and to what end- is scare mongering from remainers or is a likely eventuality is anyone's guess. How it will impact on Ireland's trade and the border up North is anyone's guess. The UK seem massively divided so who knows what sort of civil unrest might be on the cards, too. If they carry on they seem to be fucked, if they hold another referendum it could lead to an endless back and forth of indecision.
What do you reckon? Are we all fucked? Or perhaps it's the millennium bug all over again!
We'll be fine, they'll be scalded. I was worried purely from a professional standpoint a while back (logistics manager) but have since been able to sort any expected issues through customs warehousing or sourcing parts from elsewhere in the EU. Other industry will be hit a bit but I can't see it leaving us as fucked as we would be led to believe at all.
The only real issue is with the border in the north really, and the only effective way to keep that smooth is to keep NI in the customs union, which seems to just not be happening. What will end up happening in the next three months is anyone's guess.
So I guess we'll need work visas if we want to play gigs in the UK after the fact.
I think the way they are being treated by the EU should be a lesson to us all. I have been, and am generally, pro Europe, but the more I see of the threats and nastiness that is employed when people oppose Brussels, the less convincing I find it. If we look back at when our economy almost collapsed and the threat by Troika of a bomb going off on O´Connell street, it is clear that they don't take kindly to dissenting voices. The EU has become very bloated and far outstretches what it was meant to initially represent. For this reason, I don't see Brexit with all the doom and gloom others see it. If Norway and Switzerland can maintain such healthy economies, despite not being part of the EU, then surely Britain can. In fact, it could be argued that they might be a whole lot better off as a result. Additionally, it is clear that the UK has become a destination of choice for many people who see it as a place they can survive and use the system to make their lives better, and who would blame them. However, there is only so much that one country can handle and it seems that many of the services that UK people took for granted in the past are now creaking at the seams.
Of course, the usual lazy tropes of racism, xenophobia, closed mindedness are bandied about constantly, but surely the people who live in a country should be those who make the decisions, at least that's how it used to work...the politicians used to work for our benefit and not vice versa. Now any divergence from the plan is looked upon as civil disobedience, anti system or just downright stupidity and lack of understanding. No wonder people are getting just a bit fed up with this type of narrative.
The UK has done so much for the world in terms of advances in technology, education, human rights, law etc etc etc. It has been a place of advancement, and despite our difficult past with it, many of my family moved there, some only for a short while, and were all given opportunities to work and advance themselves.
Ultimately, I believe the vote should be honoured. The people spoke and any going back on that feels to me like an attack on democracy. The scaremongering has reached epic levels, similar to the scraemongering that was rolled out when Scotland went to vote on independence, similar also to what is going on here in Spain in relation to Catalonia...constant doomsday prophecies, completely overexaggerated nonsense. Catalonia could be independent tomorrow, Scotland too and the UK leave the EU and real life would continue on. People would get up for work, you would still be ordering crap on Amazon, cross border sellers would need to figure out some new rules and factor them into their costs and maybe we might get control of the border we have with the UK, which at the moment allows for a whole lot of back and forth without too much control at all, which seems odd if you look at it from a legal and security point of view.
Also, from an Irish point of view, I find it very strange that we have forgotten how much they helped us after our economy crashed...very short memories indeed. Maybe we could take our eyes off the greasy till for a while and try to see it all in a far more rounded, holistic sense instead of always boiling everything down to what the banks are saying and our constant obsession with money. Maybe there's a great opportunity in all of this for their countries. Certainly our Taoiseach is the perfect yes man, the perfect shill. He backed the EU against Catalonia, he has as much as said that we will be part of an EU army, like it not, politely breezing over our traditional neutral stance as if it were a mere inconvenience. He recently announced that our country will expand by 1 million extra people in it in the next 20 years..again with no clarification, and he's singing from the EU hymnsheet with our closest neighbour and market. A wolf in sheep's clothing if ever I saw one.
Finally, the UK was never going to be comfortable taking orders from Europe. A quick glance at a history textbook should be enough to confirm this. We are viewing Brexit within a small historical timeframe, not taking into account the hundreds of years of distrust between the crown and the likes of Spain, France, Germany etc. Religiously they weren't comfortable taking orders from Rome and it's not too long ago that they were fighting the nazis on the battlefields of France. So, yes, Europe has been a great force for good, but maybe it isn't the perfect solution and it needs a good hard kick in the ass. It has become too centralised and countries are expected to fall into line without dissent. This cannot be a good thing and bravo our neighbours for throwing a much needed spanner in the works. We Irish tend to adopt the colonial servile manner when it comes to taking orders, but it's a very healthy thing that Merkel was taken down a couple of pegs and that they might need to actually start listening to the rest of us instead of ploughing on with their visions of how things should be. I would favour a scaling back of the EU rather than further expansion. It has been a great force for good, but it is obvious that the current direction needs adjusting.
Did they really help that much? They gave a loan which needs to be repaid with interest, which was also in their benefit to keep the Irish economy up given the amount they import from here
I didn't see too many other countries reaching out. Certainly there was a pervading sense of Schadenfreude coming from many German commentators at the time. A sense of we got what we deserved and we sucked it up and flagellated ourselves accordingly. I'll never forget that orgy of self recrimination and chastisement we put ourselves through..pathetic stuff.
Varadkar is just a slightly less gay version of Justin Trudeau, even though Leo is the homosexual of the two. His pro EU stance, come what may, is infuriating. France have their own version, and are just not coming to the réalisation that he is, as Pete says, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
The vote should absolutely be respected, but from experience going right back to Maastricht, the EU has a 100% record of 'replaying' every single no vote they've received, including from ourselves. Remember these cunts are unelected bureaucrats! And the threats against Hungary and to a lesser extent, Poland for going against the grain regarding uncontrolled mass immigration should be a wake up call. This Verhofstadt character calling on the US to intervene militarily! Fuck off.
I remember arguing vehemently for a second vote on the Lisbon treaty. I can't even recall the details of it now but looking back on it now maybe I was very naive about it. Certainly, I wouldn't have anywhere near the same confidence in these resold referendums than I did then.
I'd agree with a lot of what was said in this thread. I think the EU has long since overstepped it's bounds and is a runaway dictatorship train at this stage. They desperately want to see British people eating out of soup kitchens after they leave. That's not going to happen. The way the Irish government has sided with the EU over what is now our closest ally is shocking. As someone correctly pointed out, when the Irish economy crashed the UK were more than helpful. The Germans and the EU offered loans with interest rates close to thirty percent as well as punitive and economy damaging conditions.
The EU would do well to remember that the UK is the fifth largest economy in the world. Most industries in the 27 other states will go berserk if they are denied access to that market. Another referendum is not happening. Although that is the EU way. You can vote as long as we like the result, otherwise vote again. Junker and his buddies will go back to treating us like shit the minute Brexit is over. Being islands off of mainland Europe means that both nations have similar interests. As for Varadkar, fuck him. He is a pure lackey for the EU. Does not give two fucks about Irish people and is willing to sell the entire country up the river if it means pleasing his EU buddies.
This ballacting over free movement of people when most polls show the UK public are overwhelmingly against it is nonsense. Lower paid workers in the UK are already seeing slight increases in their pay packets because of the slowdown in unlimited labour. Personally I am hoping Brexit is so much of a success that we end up following. I do not believe that the EU or the bigger states in it have the interests of anyone but themselves at heart. It was designed to stop a German dominated Europe. It ended up with the German government being able to implement their policies in other countries and override elected governments.
Quote from: hellfire on December 19, 2018, 09:13:05 PMAs someone correctly pointed out, when the Irish economy crashed the UK were more than helpful. The Germans and the EU offered loans with interest rates close to thirty percent as well as punitive and economy damaging conditions.
The UK was charging a higher interest rate than the IMF (.2% more) and the same as the EU
Quote from: hellfire on December 19, 2018, 09:13:05 PM
The EU would do well to remember that the UK is the fifth largest economy in the world. Most industries in the 27 other states will go berserk if they are denied access to that market. Another referendum is not happening. Although that is the EU way. You can vote as long as we like the result, otherwise vote again.
I really don't see the problem with another referendum. They voted to leave, grand, spent two years now negotiating it. So what's wrong with putting it to the people to continue with leaving with the deal done, leaving with no deal, or not leaving?
Interesting. Those opinions seem to go against most of what is being reported in the press. Why, in your opinions, is this positive angle not being promoted in mainstream media? What's the benefit of staying with the EU? Surely a stable and war- free Europe is a good thing so do you think that a dissolved Europe would remain stable? At the moment there seems to be a rise in both far right and far left activity across Europe and the western world generally. Who knows where that might potentially lead if every country went it alone. Imagine a Trump figure emerging in Europe under those conditions. Who knows what it might lead to! Just thinking out loud as I have no idea what Brexit will lead to for the UK and Ireland in terms of economics and nationalist- loyalist friction up north.
Ireland is such a small and fairly insignificant country in the grand scheme of things so maybe it's safer economically to stick with Europe rather than bailing out with the UK. I understand that we have strong trade links there, but we have strong links with Europe as well.
Maybe I'm a bit bamboozled by the doomsday scenarios I'm hearing on the radio every day but it seems more prudent to hang on in there.
The EU is seen as liberal when it is anything but. I put to you a list of names Jean-Claude Juncker, Donald Tusk, Manuel Barroso and Herman van Rompuy. Explain to me how your vote in any way affects the positions they hold/held. They have all made massive decisions affecting Ireland. The idea that in the 21st century Europeans cannot contain themselves from violence is nonsensical. Paying into the EU to avoid war with European countries is like the mafia asking for money not to smash your store. The current narrative in the media and the disconnect between what people want and what politicians are doing is EXACTLY what will cause a Trump like figure to emerge. Parties that would not have been given the time of day 15 years ago are springing up all over the place. AFD, Sweden Democrats, Front Nationale and Five Star Movement in Italy would not have been taken seriously in 2010.
The BBC stuck to the anti Brexit narrative even as the votes were coming in. The Irish and British media insisted that there was no hope it would pass. Trump may have surprised you, but I won fifty quid on him getting elected. What is being reported is not representative of what people think. All you are being told is that it's bad. Have you ever seen someone pro Brexit on an Irish news outlet where they weren't made out to be a racist crackpot? I'd completely agree that Ireland needs to hitch its wagon somewhere, but an unelected bunch of corrupt bureaucrats isn't it.
Quote from: Trev on December 19, 2018, 09:41:33 PM
Quote from: hellfire on December 19, 2018, 09:13:05 PMAs someone correctly pointed out, when the Irish economy crashed the UK were more than helpful. The Germans and the EU offered loans with interest rates close to thirty percent as well as punitive and economy damaging conditions.
The UK was charging a higher interest rate than the IMF (.2% more) and the same as the EU
Quote from: hellfire on December 19, 2018, 09:13:05 PM
The EU would do well to remember that the UK is the fifth largest economy in the world. Most industries in the 27 other states will go berserk if they are denied access to that market. Another referendum is not happening. Although that is the EU way. You can vote as long as we like the result, otherwise vote again.
I really don't see the problem with another referendum. They voted to leave, grand, spent two years now negotiating it. So what's wrong with putting it to the people to continue with leaving with the deal done, leaving with no deal, or not leaving?
The initial loans offered were close to thirty percent. There was no takers in Ireland, Portugal or Greece so rather than have the EU economy collapse they were quickly brought down to 6% and then 3%. As I recall the IMF rate was lower than the EU too. There is no point in referendums if one side gets a redo when the public gets the wrong answer.
Nothing about it being the wrong answer but giving a better question. People voted to leave on a strictly binary choice without knowing exactly what it would entail, as there was obviously no deal on the table. Now that there is one, sort of, and given the magnitude of what it would mean, I'd see nothing wrong what another vote
A matter of opinion I suppose. I'd personally find it distasteful. Another vote is not going to happen anyway. Perhaps there should have been a package put forward before the vote, but the referendum passing wasn't supposed to be on the cards. The Nice and Lisbon treaties over here were all voted for again until we got the right answer. That's what I meant by getting the right answer.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on December 19, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Surely a stable and war- free Europe is a good thing
Always laugh when Europhiles claim the EU has ensured no wars in Europe since it was founded, I thought that was more down to millions of American and Soviet troops pointing nukes at each other in central Europe.
And whenever you just mention what went on in the Balkans the excuses start flying.
The EU is unnecessary, the EEC was perfectly fine.
It wasn't a case of voting for the "right" answer though, in both those cases the treaties were renegotiated and amended after the first no vote and then put back out
As you suggested earlier, it might be a good idea to put a full plan to the people before calling a referendum. Should we vote on abortion again now that the detail has been sorted? All other votes are accepted as final. Seems the EU runs on a best out of three system.
I think that's a false equivalence. People know what abortion is; nobody knows what Brexit is going to be.
Precisely. Brexit is not what was advertised on the brochure. Had the people voted for the situation as it is now and as it appears to be going, it would probably be a quite different outcome. If you bought Brexit in a shop 18 months ago and it turned out like it is now, you would bring it back an ask for a refund. That is is determining the course of people's lives and livelihoods, it is unforgivable that people are tied to what amounts to a scam.
Wow, all this back and forth about the potential positives and negatives of Brexit and not yet a single mention of the ham-fisted toffs who are (or have been) the biggest driving forces behind it: Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Someone asked where the intelligent pro-Brexit voices were? I'd imagine there might be a couple alright, but it would be hard to be heard above that pack of pompous buffoons.
When thinking about Brexit today, especially if you have anti-EU sentiments (which I, for example, do, since I'm ideologically opposed to neo-liberal socio-economic policies), you have to distinguish between the idea of Britain leaving the EU, which is what the people voted for, and the reality of what is actually taking place towards making that happen. It would seem to be clear that the people who wanted it to happen (independent of their reasons) didn't have a good enough idea of what would be required to bring it successfully into effect. And whatever about Varadkar licking up to the EU top cats (which he certainly does), as Irish citizens we should be in no way surprised that the same group of retrogrades named above, gave little to no consideration to the land border they still hold with our state, and even got into bed with the worst enemies of our state currently inhabiting the island of Ireland (meaning the DUP, of course).
In short, leaving the EU being an arguably good thing does nothing to change the fact that the current leadership of the UK are, in my honest opinion, just as horrid (and what better insult for a group of toffs!) as those they wish to break away from.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on December 20, 2018, 10:08:28 AM
I think that's a false equivalence. People know what abortion is; nobody knows what Brexit is going to be.
It means Britain leaving the EU. Easier to understand than a medical procedure.
Quote from: Juggz on December 20, 2018, 10:18:42 AM
Precisely. Brexit is not what was advertised on the brochure. Had the people voted for the situation as it is now and as it appears to be going, it would probably be a quite different outcome. If you bought Brexit in a shop 18 months ago and it turned out like it is now, you would bring it back an ask for a refund. That is is determining the course of people's lives and livelihoods, it is unforgivable that people are tied to what amounts to a scam.
The only thing that has changed is that rather than act upon the peoples vote a hard core of British and European politicians are going out of their way to make a pants of it. Sore losers. A scam? how? Remaining in the EU ties them into an increasingly authoritarian, corrupt and unelected superstate. Having less and less say over their own lives because their elected officials are bound to rules decided by people who were not voted for. If you bought the EEC and it became the EU it was like buying a Gremlin only to add water later.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on December 20, 2018, 10:30:05 AM
Wow, all this back and forth about the potential positives and negatives of Brexit and not yet a single mention of the ham-fisted toffs who are (or have been) the biggest driving forces behind it: Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Someone asked where the intelligent pro-Brexit voices were? I'd imagine there might be a couple alright, but it would be hard to be heard above that pack of pompous buffoons.
When thinking about Brexit today, especially if you have anti-EU sentiments (which I, for example, do, since I'm ideologically opposed to neo-liberal socio-economic policies), you have to distinguish between the idea of Britain leaving the EU, which is what the people voted for, and the reality of what is actually taking place towards making that happen. It would seem to be clear that the people who wanted it to happen (independent of their reasons) didn't have a good enough idea of what would be required to bring it successfully into effect. And whatever about Varadkar licking up to the EU top cats (which he certainly does), as Irish citizens we should be in no way surprised that the same group of retrogrades named above, gave little to no consideration to the land border they still hold with our state, and even got into bed with the worst enemies of our state currently inhabiting the island of Ireland (meaning the DUP, of course).
In short, leaving the EU being an arguably good thing does nothing to change the fact that the current leadership of the UK are, in my honest opinion, just as horrid (and what better insult for a group of toffs!) as those they wish to break away from.
Do you think that Brexit is, in itself, a good move, it just needed better leadership? Is there any way Europe would have let them leave on more positive terms or would they have made it messy regardless of who was negotiating as a warning to other countries thinking of jumping ship?
I think, in itself, it's neither a good nor a bad move. Up to this point, however, its reality has been marked by a long series of, in themselves, bad moves.
Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting. People vote for different reasons but I believe the many do their homework before they put pen to paper.
The abortion vote is actually a very good example. There were definite closed minds on both sides, but I know lots of people who did the research and struggled with the whole question for a lot of time prior to the vote. They took their vote seriously. Some listened to testimonies from doctors on what can only be described as horrific procedures on an unborn child and they balanced that out with stories from people who had gone through rapes and unwanted pregnancies etc. It wasn't just a quick tick and drop of the pen.
The problem with the negotiations is that May is a fucking disaster. She didn't vote for Brexit and she's trying to appease all sides. They need a far better negotiator in there fighting their corner.
That said, the EU has no other choice than to be tough as fuck on this, otherwise the whole show could come down around their ears. I don't want to see that happen, but it needs a lot of reform. I think the UK are right to want to have more say in what goes on in and with their country because at the moment they are on the fringes when it comes to decision making.
It'll be interesting to see how it goes in terms of the union. I could easily see another independence referendum in Scotland within a few years. Northern Ireland is a bit harder to say since the DUP can seem to do whatever they want and they'll still have people that will vote for them
Quote from: Pedrito on December 20, 2018, 02:16:40 PM
Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting. People vote for different reasons but I believe the many do their homework before they put pen to paper.
A lot of people would have researched the issue but, and this is just my opinion, i in no way think the majority of people who voted to leave researched anything. Not a fucking chance.
Quote from: Pedrito on December 20, 2018, 02:16:40 PM
Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting.
It's not necessarily insulting. It's reality: They didn't know that the current reality was what they were voting for. They didn't know that the people claiming to have a plan actually had no plan at all. They didn't know that major elements of a separation (the border is just one example) hadn't even been floated as considerations. They knew they wanted out of the EU, for a wide variety of reasons from demographic to demographic, but did they know what life in transit and post-Brexit would be like? How could they have? And now with the Brexiteers turning on each other like never before, what really is the plan now? There seems to be less cohesion than ever, which of course bodes awfully for the future, be that in or out of the EU.
If they wanted to do things democratically, then a series of referendums would have been needed, not about the same remain versus leave question, but to give the people a chance to guide things. You could say the general election was a chance to do just that, but again, would Labour have secured enough votes to win had the people been able to foresee the Tories getting into bed with the DUP (planted-by-God-to-test-us) dinosaurs? It's too easy to point at the big question and say, "We have to respect the people's choice!" But, quite simply, what the politicians cobble together after the fact doesn't always fit what the people thought their choice was going to materialize into. The "democratic" system itself is largely to blame, both for the shite they wanted out of the EU for and for the shite they're facing from their own Brexiteering government.
During the run up to the vote all options were covered. The Irish government in particular were very vocal on the border issue. The SNP were threatening another referendum. Trade deals were discussed at length by every economist from here to kingdom come. The rights of EU workers was addressed. The very real possibility of the EU acting like a pack of disgruntled babies was mentioned several times. For their part the EU swore to act like disgruntled babies. There wasn't a one sided campaign to get Brexit to happen. Merkel and co said a trade deal wouldn't be done until after the UK left and there was all sorts of doomsday scenarios went through. People knew nothing had been drawn up before the referendum and would require extensive negotiations. The only thing they didn't know beforehand was that the remain side would throw all of their toys out of the pram and do anything they could to stuff up negotiations.
The leavers seem to be doing no better!
The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed
I think you're all making fair points, and yes it shows how, almost anarchic, the democratic system can be. But there was 1 question put to the people...in or out, and they voted out. I don't think it was mass madness or hysteria or stupidity. I think a lot of people thought that would be far better out of the EU and that the resulting bullshit would all iron itself out eventually. Everyone knew the EU would be wankers about it. Everyone knew about borders and Scotland and all the other stuff and they still said they'd be better off out of the EU..Now that's saying something.
I do believe there's a massive disconnect in the UK between regions. People feel like they have no say when it comes to decision making in London, well imagine another layer being added on top of that? Some beurocrat in Brussels deciding things that take place in your small patch of dirt hundreds of miles away.
The EU has been a massive force for good but more and more we are seeing sweeping decisions being made without ANY consultation to the people. Its not a coincidence that all around Europe and the world people are turning towards far more conservative and even right leaning politics. People feel massively let down and are sick to death of globalisation, centralisation, neo-liberalism etc. It all seems so inviting and cosy but once you start boiling it down you start to realise that it's unsustainable. Now, I would argue that there are huge benefits to open borders, free movement etc, but when you think that the vast majority of people are stressed enough with just trying to get to the end of the month, find a place for their child in a decent school, pay the mortgage and hopefully have a hospital bed available if they need it, then they are thinking on a far less utopian and idealistic level than those in Brussels, Merkel, Macron, Varadkar, Junker and their cronies. It will be good for the EU and for the remaining members in future...a kick in the ass was badly needed.
Quote from: Pedrito on December 20, 2018, 02:16:40 PM
The problem with the negotiations is that May is a fucking disaster. She didn't vote for Brexit and she's trying to appease all sides. They need a far better negotiator in there fighting their corner.
I think that with her being a Remainer at heart, she's decided to sacrifice her career in order to sabotage Brexit. She's announced she won't be running at the next election, and if Brexit does not happen, I'd expect to see her rewarded with a nice European job.
Quote from: Trev on December 20, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed
If the voters weren't properly informed of all negative aspects of leaving and positive aspects of staying then the remain side can blame themselves. They weren't asked to vote on every side issue. Leave or stay were the options and they voted to leave. By the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with.
Quote from: hellfire on December 20, 2018, 09:14:31 PM
Quote from: Trev on December 20, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed
If the voters weren't properly informed of all negative aspects of leaving and positive aspects of staying then the remain side can blame themselves. They weren't asked to vote on every side issue. Leave or stay were the options and they voted to leave. By the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with.
But that's just it, they couldn't have been informed of all aspects because there was no idea of how
any issue, not just side issue, was going to be resolved. Especially the biggest stumbling block which is that the UK would still have a land border with the EU
It's all well and good saying it shouldn't be a problem between the two countries, but it potentially could be based on the WTO rules that will come into to effect in a no deal
The redo is not going to happen. What may happen is a Brexit lite that pleases no one. Doing a referendum over because voters don't have a crystal ball is absurd. They had the facts and were aware of what was at stake.
Quote from: hellfire on December 20, 2018, 09:14:31 PMBy the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with.
It's not as easy as that unfortunately, and never could be, for us to stay in the single market we have to have controlled borders with non EU countries. It's less of the EU using us to get one over on the UK, as you're making out, more about consideration for our own trade with other EU countries, which is vital to how we operate economically. In and ideal world, it wouldn't be, but the world's not ideal and I don't see general irish industry being able to do as well without access to the single market and the EU trade agreements with third countries.
A special agreement could have been met by making NI a special area, allowing them to be part of the single market but in the UK too, which would have been excellent for the north - effectively making them a trade gateway to the UK from the EU in the future - but it has been thrown out of consideration already. What a shame.
Quote from: hellfire on December 21, 2018, 08:15:32 AM
The redo is not going to happen. What may happen is a Brexit lite that pleases no one. Doing a referendum over because voters don't have a crystal ball is absurd. They had the facts and were aware of what was at stake.
They didn't have facts though because they couldn't have, because there was no deal at the time. What facts did they have on how the border was going to work?
The only certain fact they would either stay or leave
To illustrate how badly informed, not only those who voted but, those who pushed for Brexit were and are, Rees-Mogg yesterday suggested that there would be no need for a hard border in Ireland in the case of a no-deal exit. He's working on the premise that EU and British law will be the same the day after the UK leave the EU. They will "trust", for example, EU food imports on Tuesday just as they did on Monday.
QuoteHowever, his vision was immediately dismissed by legal experts as a breach of World Trade Organization rules because it would amount to discriminatory practice.
QuoteHis vision was dismissed as confused by the British Ports Association.
Incredible lack of logical thinking. Of course, once the EU or the UK change their customs laws, a hard border is also required straight away. It's a long, long way away from the easiest deal in history which Liam Fox eulogised.
You'd swear we've never had to do this before though. Of course things aren't going to be completely straightforward but that's what we have politicians, negotiators, civil servants etc for. Agreements will have to be come to. It still doesn't mean that Britain should stay in the EU as a result. India, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel...they had to negotiate their way through all these issues in the past and they'll do the same again.
True, however, you'd have to acknowledge they're either maliciously misleading or incredibly ignorant.
If Britain fucks themselves that's one thing, they choose this bullshit. I just hope their shit doesn't taint things for us, (well, much, it's seemingly inevitable that it will somewhat).
The vote on the exit deal is imminent and seemingly doomed to defeat. Tomorrow will prove fascinating as it appears to be swinging back towards leave in chaos or vote again whether to leave at all. Shambolic governance in a parliament full of vipers.
Such a cluster fuck.
Defeated by 432 votes to 202.
Destination: Brick wall.
Brussels rule out reopening the withdrawal agreement. So... crashy crashy or another referendum?
There are that many pig-headed cunts involved, I'd be putting my money on crashy-crashy.
Is May not angling for another vote all the while trying to make it look like she's running the show? The impression I always get is that while she knew that the leave vote won, that she would be just as happy to remain.
Political suicide, but maybe she's happy to take the hit if that's what she perceives to be the greater good. On the other hand, Europe don't seem very interested in any further negotiations so I can't really see what difference the leadership makes. Could Corbyn, or anybody else have managed a better deal?
Not much give with Brussels at all and no UK leader was going to change that. Instead of signalling that a possible UK leave could or should trigger badly needed reform, the approach has been to be bullish and make other countries afraid to leave for fear of recriminations.... hardly a great way to run the club.
They were never, ever, ever going to make leaving look like an attractive proposition.
True. What a total shitfest....
One has to laugh at Boris Johnson proclaiming that they can now use their impending economic apocalypse as leverage against the EU for a better deal. The medicine shortage must have already started.
Yeah, it seems quite bizarre that some of them see the disarray in Westminster as some sort of threat to the EU. It borders on the fantastical.
Of course, the real downside to this is that it looks like there'll be a hard border to the North in just a couple of months unless there is a very unlikely U-turn on this shitshow. What a total fucking disaster.
Quote from: Juggz on January 16, 2019, 08:11:45 AM
Of course, the real downside to this is that it looks like there'll be a hard border to the North in just a couple of months unless there is a very unlikely U-turn on this shitshow. What a total fucking disaster.
I pass through Contae Ard Mhacha twice a day on my way to work. That's a potential 4 border stops just to get to and from work.
An alternative route without crossing the border is about 10km longer each way. That's an extra 100km a week.
I don't know which is worse? Fingers crossed for no hard border again though.
I think they should put in some sort of failsafe that if an agreement can't be reached, then another referendum. A No Deal Brexit should be the last option and contingencies of some sort should be there to prevent that outcome.
I'm not mad about second refs in general but this thing has been a calamity from start to finish and actually warrants one.
Or the other option, if a deal can't be reached, simply revoke the whole leaving process altogether.
Shitshow.
The German take on it is interesting, it's worth running this through a translator.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/brexit-votum-in-london-die-niederlage-von-westminster-15990953.html?GEPC=s3
The basic gist is that the British couldn't seriously consider the EU would put the interests of a country leaving the union ahead of those who remain and it's a massive failing of British diplomacy to expect that to happen.
That doesn't sound promising for them getting much joy out of any potential renegotiations and, let's not forget, the big problem is the border and Customs Union.
In 10 years time the British will be saying that Brexit was the best choice they ever made. It wouldnt work for most countries, but there are huge advantages to being outside the bureaucratic dinosaur that is the EU. I think theyre right to push back on any deal that is overly punitive and they need to push forward and negotiate their way through it all. There is a lot of bravado and rhetoric on both sides, but when push comes to shove, money talks, and both sides will do their utmost to ensure that the bottom line is protected. Another referendum, after all this time, negotiating etc. would simply be farcical.
Is the defeated deal overly punitive? Much, indeed almost all, of the objection has been around the border here, the backstop and the Customs Union proposal, that it doesn't give them full sovereignty over their own borders - in the short term at least. I've heard little else which would suggest the deal was punitive.
Wonder if a hard border coming back would make the possibility of a united Ireland more likely? Could be enough to sway moderate unionists? If that were to happen it wouldn't take much for Scotland to push for another independence referendum...
The whole thing has just been a complete clusterfuck from the start
Quote from: Juggz on January 16, 2019, 01:07:49 PM
Is the defeated deal overly punitive? Much, indeed almost all, of the objection has been around the border here, the backstop and the Customs Union proposal, that it doesn't give them full sovereignty over their own borders - in the short term at least. I've heard little else which would suggest the deal was punitive.
I suppose it depends from what perspective you are looking at it from. From our Southedn Ireland point of view it's a total pain in the hole, we want the backstop as I'm sure most people do on a theoretical level. The issue with the backstop, however, is that it creates doubt around borders, sovreignty and ultimately the union. They already had a near miss with the Scottish independence referendum and anything that suggests fragility to the union is going to be opposed. From my reading of it, they are willing to risk economic upheaval for the wider and deeper questions surrounding territory and sovreignty. I can understand the goal, achieving it is going to be rough for all involved.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/john-humphrys-suggests-ireland-could-quit-eu-and-join-uk (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/john-humphrys-suggests-ireland-could-quit-eu-and-join-uk)
"Mastermind"
"We have agreed that we don't like the deal we agreed with you. What are you gonna do about it?"
Simpletons. They're going to have to extend article 50 unless they decide to dig in and allow a no-deal scenario. The shitshow continues.
They backed an amendment rejecting a no-deal scenario yesterday, along with voting in other "alternative arrangements" for the border issue. They haven't clarified what those "alternatiive arrangements" are, because they don't know what they are, but those damn fascists in Brussels better figure it out and comply or else!
The greatest political shitshow of the modern age. The American situation looks like chaos but there's a steady and deliberate empowering of hardcore right-wing Christian groups going on under all the fluff about Trump. The UK is just shambolic. It's quite incredible.
It seems like they view yesterday's vote as a success. They all agree that they don't like the backstop and now that they agree they don't like it, they think they have more power to negotiate with Europe. Do they think that have made some progression in the last 24 hours or something?
It's startling that only a week ago May was saying the deal on the table was the best possible option but suddenly she is now in a better position of power to negotiate....??
Gowlbag
I'm so confused by it all. It seems as if none of them can even decide if they want to stay or go, changing team as they go along. Who knows, it might all work out eventually if they leave without a deal (or with one) but the short term looks to be chaotic. The backstop issue just doesn't seem to make sense. They appear to be treating the border as something they can decide to handle in whatever way they like even though Europe consistently says otherwise. Good Friday Agreement? Ah, it'll be grand...
What are the options, really?
- The UK remains a part of the EU customs union, no hard border
- NI remains part of the EU customs union in a "temporary" backstop, no hard border here but a thorny issue between the UK and NI
- UK and NI leave the EU customs union, hard border here, Good Friday agreement is scrapped
- Ireland leaves the customs union with the UK, no hard border but everything else is fucked
Is there anything else? I don't see a way customs law can be maintained outside of those scenarios. What can they possibly hope to get out of renegotiation? Once Ni operates to different customs and immigration laws, how can there not be a border with different laws and governance either side of it?
How might it play out economically if Ireland ended up following the UK out of Europe? If that was the only way to maintain the soft border and prevent a return to violence up North?
I meant to say the UK's handling of the backstop makes no sense, by the way.
I'd say it would be an economic catastrophe, to be rivalled only by the one heading towards the UK right now. I sincerely doubt my employer, for one, would stick around if we weren't their gateway into the EU.
A hard border is the only thing which actually delivers the one thing Brexit promised, more self-control. They need to leave, really leave, in order to be able to fully deliver it.
If they stay within the customs union, they lose their say in EU matters while still being bound by some EU laws.
If only NI stays within the customs union, they lose their say in some of their own laws, as does London, while Ireland retains influence in the same laws. Does anyone really expect the more radicalised Unionists to accept that, much like we don't expect the Republicans to be too chuffed about the return of a hard border?
It's utterly fucked, regardless of which way it goes.
Time to get that Australian visa and get the fuck out of dodge!
Steve Barclay, the Brexit Secretary, was asked to explain the "alternative arrangements" today and replied they were "exploring in terms of the use of technology... looking at things like the time limit... There are a number of options, there are issues in terms of having time limits, issues in terms of exit clauses, issues in terms of technology and this will be the nature of the negotiation with the European Union in the coming days."
Meanwhile, former Brexit Secretary David Davis still insists the EU has more to lose and will come back for a late deal. He mentioned small airports in Southern France will have to shut down in the case of no-deal, deliberately overlooking the impact that no planes would also have on UK airports :laugh:
Quote from: Eoin McLove on January 30, 2019, 10:48:31 AM
How might it play out economically if Ireland ended up following the UK out of Europe? If that was the only way to maintain the soft border and prevent a return to violence up North?
Economically badly, it would suit the UK better than us by a mile if both countries left. I also wouldn't see it preventing a return of violence or maintain a soft border. For customs purposes we would both still be considered Third Countries to each other / separate customs entities, the only way to avoid that would be economically unifying trade and movement of people with the UK. Assuming that happened, looking only economically at it we've removed ourselves from both tariff free trade with the EU and the countries they have agreements with on the whole. No use in Ireland as an EU base for companies so they get out of dodge, huge job losses. Also if we left the Eurozone we'd have to reinstate and float a new currency, we couldn't keep trading in Euro surely. It's a fucked scenario.
NI and Scotland have referendums to leave the UK. Ansin, go tobann, we can start a new union of Gaelic nations within the EU. Bualadh bos!
You have to admire their ability to find humour in such a calamity
https://mobile.twitter.com/ByDonkeys
It's a great awareness campaign, whoever's behind it.
While it's actually quite humourous what they're doing, it just shows how much of an utter failure a lot of these mouthpieces are. Boris is such an arrogant cunt in what he has said throughout the process and when you see his quote and how utterly far removed it is from reality, it's actually very sad.
The lack of accountabililty for talking utter shite seems to be a common trait in modern politics, sadly. There's a notable void where good journalism used to perform a vital function, filled with social media fluff.
Honda appear to be shutting down UK production. The first of many, I would expect.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0218/1031302-hondas-uk-plant/
Coincidentally, the head of Mercedes F1 team announced they may have to move out of the UK today. That's 1500 jobs on the line, too.
An entire sector upping sticks and moving out of the UK... what a mess.
Curious what Farage, Johnson, the DUP, et al can suggest to backfill employment there.
Reopen the coal mines?
Or start a war.
Quote from: Wiseblood on February 18, 2019, 04:27:41 PM
Curious what Farage, Johnson, the DUP, et al can suggest to backfill employment there.
I can't wait to see the spin, so it's the EU/ Ireland/remainers/ everyone else' fault.
It looks like the amended agreement will be defeated again, leaving this shitshow no closer to a sane resolution than it ever was. There is already talk of a general election which, given the current state of the process and only two weeks to go before a potential no-deal exit, illustrates just how fucked they are. Of course, we will not escape unscathed from the mess. As things stand, there'll be a hard border before the end of the month.
Or they will push it out again or maybe hold another referendum or just decide not to leave. So yeah, basically the same as when it all began.
When you think it couldn't get more ridiculous, May just voted against her own motion to prevent a no-deal Brexit. They are a fucking disgrace :laugh:
Shocked at the level of incompetence on display from UK politicians. Not one bit shocked that the EU and remainders did everything to fuck it up. They have had two years to organize this shit. Country before party seems to be a forgotten sentiment.
A perfect example of the shitshow that party politics has become..you've hit the nail on the head. They'll do anything to win their petty little games. It actually makes our bunch look rather mature, FF propping up a FG govt. Like them or loathe them, a lot of pride was swallowed to allow those 2 parties to work together. I thought Brexit wasn't a bad idea but it's getting out of hand now.
When Brexit finally leads to the Eirepocalypse I'll head to Oz, have sex with a kangaroo and 'make it' on YouTube, then spend the next five years appearing on Celebrity Medieval Torture Rack, Celebrity Amputation, Celebrity Cadaver on Ice, Celebrity Flaming Gapers and all the other unwatchable celebrity vomit before overdosing on vitamin D tablets and dying of sunstroke.
I've always wanted to see you in glorious union with a kangaroo, Andy. Aye Pedrito, pretty shameful stuff. As I said earlier in the thread Varadkar is doing us no favours by siding with the EU on this one.
I thought between the EU and Varadkar, there'd be a certain amount of capitulation. In all fairness, and as smug a fucker as he is, Leo has done very well throughout all this.
I personally think Varadkar is a bit too EU chummy. Imagine if we pushed more and demeanded more, a kind of middle ground somewhere? This is the same lot that were after our Corporation tax a few years ago. They'd rather see us a little bit crippled like southern Europe and dependent on them. We should be in there demanding soft borders and different arrangements with our closest market. It must be a symptom of colonialization, how utterly compliant we are every time 'Masser' clicks his fingers. A little bit of roguishness wouldn't do us any harm.
Much as I hate Varadker, he's still part of a club that the UK want out of. Of course he's going to side with the EU as it's in our best interests to do so. Imagine if he sided with the UK. We'd effectively be pandering to them and it would kick off talk of Ireland leaving the EU. For all it's flaws, this country would be fucked without EU support and funding.
Ehhh... has a frictionless border not been the cornerstone of everything for the last 6 months? If the British want to have no border (and it looks like many of the most ardent Brexiteer types, DUP included would welcome a return to one regardless of the consequences) then the agreement between the EU and the UK needs to be in place before they leave. There has to be alignment in border law or there will be a border. They're trying not to be tied to EU law, which is fine, without bringing an alternative, which is stupid. There is nothing in place and they're not offering a legally viable alternative. They're a shambles.
And who should we side with, if not the EU? We are the EU. Should we really be cheering the British, who are tearing their democracy apart, driven by jingoistic idealism, blatant lies and now trying to exert their will against Ireland's interests? For all their talk of not treating NI differently from the rest of the UK, their no-deal tariff structure contains rules designed to negatively impact Ireland. Goods can go from Ireland to NI with no tariff. Super. However, if those goods go through NI to the mainland UK, they are subject to tariffs. Fuck them. Underhanded cunts.
Now it looks like they're going to vote for the third time on the same withdrawal agreement. I can see this being painted as "you keep voting until you vote the way the EU wants you to vote" but, seriously, what credible alternative have any of the hardline, or anyone else, to be frank, proposed? It's a backstop until a trade deal is in place or it's hard exit. Are there really any other options?
If this gridlock continues could the lack of a second referendum be viewed as being negligent on the government's part? The parting of ways with the EU is proving to be so completely divisive that it is pulling Westminster apart from all sides. Why not abandon it and go back to the drawing board with the possibility of approaching it again in ten years after they have a plan in place! Or are the EU likely to take them back with the proviso that they don't try to leave again?
I have a morbid curiousity about how all this is going to pan out. Granted, I'd probably be singing a different tune if I was at home...
:laugh: Tearing their democracy apart by moving towards being ruled by elected leaders instead of appointed ones. It wasn't so long ago the EU saw fit to mortgage Ireland to protect private investors. They are not our friends.
Not tearing democracy apart but maybe getting tangled up in do much detail as to be paralysed.
They're right to push back against the EU superstate, but they could give themselves a helping hand instead of arseing around so much
The handling of it has been monstrous. Boris and company fled the scene of the crime and the remainers willfully damaged their own country in order to prove a rather shitty ideological point.
That the leavers were lying through their hole all along?
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0315/1036688-backstop-deal-cox/
Fuck sake
Interesting to see many Brexiteer MPs upset by Bercow saying they can't have another vote on the same proposal when they show little interest in affording the same privilege to the general public.
Purely from a voyeuristic point of view, it would be fascinating to see how the UK would vote if they were given the opportunity again, knowing now what they know.
The smug fucker was only delighted with a little bit of the spotlight.
They've voted against a No-Deal scenario, which brings on the extension. Either during the extension or shortly thereafter, you'd have to figure that the next logical step in avoiding a No Deal would be to put the vote back to the people? Assuming the EU stick to their guns as they have so far. It's probably hardly worth mentioning logical steps at this point, though.
"I think we should kick the withdrawal thing down the road a few months so we can have a third vote on my deal"
Well what about if we just put another vote to the people to see if they still think leaving is the best idea?
"Absolutely not! The people already voted and it would destroy democracy to vote again!!"
This will be the simplest deal of all time. They hold all the cards, after all.
QuoteForeign Secretary Jeremy Hunt said the UK would be faced with three options if Mrs May's deal was defeated again next week: revoke Article 50; leave without a deal; or a longer extension could be granted at an emergency EU summit, but with "onerous conditions".
It's not quite like the brochure. You'd see better organisation going into a stag weekend. No-deal will be a catastrophe for their businesses, and ours.
If (and I appreciate that's a big if) that happens, you'd have to think the Scottish won't be long looking to jump ship. Could Brexit lead to the Union falling apart and the Scottish back in the EU in a few years?
A few years? The kind of predicted catastrophe could lead to turbo politics; an "extraordinary general meeting" via emergency second referendum on membership in the UK and, potentially, Scotland would never actually leave the EU at all. That's the kind of excitement we deserve after this whole uncoordinated heel-dragging shitshow!
It appears the EU will extend until 22nd of May and no longer, provided next week the House of Commons approve the Withdrawal Agreement as it is currently drafted.
And this is the third vote of the same bill? The vote which has been scuppered cos of your man saying another vote without changes to that bill won't be allowed?
That's the one :laugh:
Thie history of this will be a great read for the people of the future.
You actually could not make it up. So many words have been used to describe how utterly shambolic the whole thing has been, but really, words genuinely don't cover it. Not in the English language anyway. What's the opposite of Vorsprung durch technic?
Finally, the voice of reason - Uri Gellar - has weighed in on the matter
Quote"An open letter to Theresa May
My Dear Theresa,
We have known each other for over 21 years since you became our MP. You visited my home in Sonning, where you also lived. Three years before you became Prime Minister, I predicted your victory when I showed you Winston Churchill's spoon on my Cadillac, which I asked you to touch.
Despite popular public opinion, I also predicted that Donald Trump would become the 45th President of the United States.
As you might have read, I am ensuring that Jeremy Corbyn never gets the keys to Number 10 Downing Street, with the power of my mind which I have proved over and again.
I will ensure that they bend out of all proportion to ensure that he never takes up residence there.
My power has been validated by the CIA, MI5 and Mossad.
The CIA concluded: "As a result of Geller's success in this experimental period, we consider that he has demonstrated his paranormal perceptual ability in a convincing and unambiguous manner."
It is easily verifiable. Just look at the official CIA website.
I have influenced many high ranking officials around the world.
On one occasion, Senator Clayborne Pell, then the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, directed me to bombard the mind of Yuli Vorontsov, the Soviet Union's chief nuclear negotiator, to influence him telepathically to sign the Nuclear Arms Reduction treaty, which I did successfully.
Now to the point of my open letter to you.
I feel psychically and very strongly that most British people do not want Brexit.
I love you very much but I will not allow you to lead Britain into Brexit.
As much as I admire you, I will stop you telepathically from doing this - and believe me I am capable of executing it.
Before I take this drastic course of action, I appeal to you to stop the process immediately while you still have a chance.
Although I currently live in Israel I am still a British citizen and feel very passionately about the country and the people I came to love.
Much energy and love
Uri"
"while you still have a chance" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh:
Finally, some positive news!
Hopefully he'll wrap a spoon tightly around Arlene Fosters throat
Cold
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/dont-pity-theresa-may-shes-the-worst-prime-minister-in-living-memory/2019/03/22/405920e6-4ca5-11e9-93d0-64dbcf38ba41_story.html?utm_term=.9ba38b5a1722
Parliament has defeated every Brexit alternative proposal, with the "another referendum" option getting the closest to approval, losing in very close to a 48/52 split. There is no point in May bringing the WA back and she has fucked herself over for nothing. They are a complete shower of wankbags, particularly the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg who said they would back the same WA they previously said they would never vote for, provided May resigned.
....And it was No vote.....again.
Corbyn is saying the next/only logical step is a general election. What would that do exactly? Am I missing something or would that be with a view to opening up more discussion with the EU and coming up with an alternative plan? Europe aren't going to entertain that, surely? Enough time has been wasted and countries have their own shit to be dealing with.
Would they not just pick out 3 or 4 of the 8 options, all of which were voted against, give everyone 1 vote and see where that leaves them. Because, they don't want a No deal but could end up causing one by accident.
Part of me thinks a lot of them genuinely want no deal. The last week has proven that all the bluster, all the bullshit that was spouted before the referendum, has been proven to be that. Not one of the main proponents of Brexit had anything to contribute this week when the opportunity was there to provide an alternative to the WA. The cunts never once believed they would win the vote and have been trying to distance themselves from the obvious catastrophe they have brought upon their country. They were never going to "get a better deal" than the one they had as EU members. They have proven, by doing an about-turn and supporting the WA in the end, that they don't really give a fuck for Northern Ireland. The EU have stood firmer behind Ireland's interests on the border than those cunts just looking after their own political careers. No-deal gives them a chance to find a scapegoat for never being able to deliver on their promises. "Well of course it's shit because the nasty EU wouldn't compromise and give us the deal we wanted". They won't own up to anything, just look to push the blame elsewhere again. Corbyn is as useful as damp lettuce. The most feeble opposition leader I can think of. Imagine being opposite that Tory clusterfuck imploding in on itself and people still wouldn't vote for you. They don't have time for a General Election, they have two fucking weeks before they leave with no deal, no plan and no clue. Fuck what happens to the people.
Cuntery of historic proportions.
(https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/55439573_1260200437488056_8867911188999045120_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=7b1e703dbb3f0c23ca9c0477c0eaf6f7&oe=5D0D0B6F)
The crazy fucks have voted against every alternative proposal again. A whole lot of no and no-one knows what yes is. 12 days to go.
They're streaming it live, it's fascinating to watch. The Scottish MPs are making noises about independence.
Quote from: Juggz on April 01, 2019, 10:08:45 PM
The crazy fucks have voted against every alternative proposal again. A whole lot of no and no-one knows what yes is. 12 days to go.
What are the possibilities that this is just the most elaborate April fools in history?
Quote"It is crystal clear to us in Scotland that our votes in this house are disrespected. It is becoming increasingly clear to the people of Scotland that if we want to secure our future as a European nation, then we are going to have to take our own responsibilities.
"The case is this; sovereignty rests with the people of Scotland, not with this house. The day is coming where we will determine our own future and it will be as an independent country."
Talk is cheap, lads, let's see some action :laugh:
The circus continues unabated. Get it over with lads.
Gonna get a bottle of wine on the way home from work and watch the stream on parliamentlive.tv this evening. If it's anything like Monday it'll be a night of great entertainment.
I don't know how you have the patience to watch those squabbling babies.
I've largely ignored the proceedings but I clicked on a video on youtube last night out of morbid curiosity.
It's such a strange thing to watch them at it, every so often I had to remember this is real and not people acting. The speaker john bercow is highly entertaining though.
Quote from: hellfire on April 03, 2019, 07:02:38 PM
I don't know how you have the patience to watch those squabbling babies.
There's a big difference between someone's condensed interpretation of an event versus experiencing it first hand, as I'm sure you can appreciate. I find this entire process fascinating. It is an event of massive historical significance which I believe will have a profound effect over the rest of my lifetime, so I am happy to give some time to really get into it. While there is definitely a massive concentration of cuntery in that room, watching it has forced me to concede there are also quite a few - on both sides - who do appear to trying to do their best for what they consider to be the best interests of their country. Besides, debate, when done well, is stimulating and mind-opening and it does happen there, albeit infrequently. Hearing both sides of the argument direct from the mouths of the protagonists is rarely a bad thing when forming an opinion. There is also much theater in how the UK parliament functions and it all makes for quite addictive viewing. Monday evening was one of the finest pieces of drama I have ever watched, completely engrossing. Last night wasn't quite as good but it did have its moments.
All that being said, Bill Cash is clearly one of the greatest cunts to walk the Earth.
Any idea who Arlene Foster tipped for the Ulster championship this year?
CIRA out marching in Dublin and Cork over the weekend. Could this small surge in activity be linked back to what's going on in the UK and the lack of government up North or was it always going to happen? Stormont needs to reactivate in a serious and productive way and get back to where things were with McGuinness and Paisley at the helm. Who really wants these stupid regressive fucks back in action... leave them to drug dealing and leave politics to people who are interested in progressive dialogue.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on April 23, 2019, 07:55:51 AM
CIRA out marching in Dublin and Cork over the weekend. Could this small surge in activity be linked back to what's going on in the UK and the lack of government up North or was it always going to happen? Stormont needs to reactivate in a serious and productive way and get back to where things were with McGuinness and Paisley at the helm. Who really wants these stupid regressive fucks back in action... leave them to drug dealing and leave politics to people who are interested in progressive dialogue.
Absolute scum. Seen a few videos online of people dabbing red paint on the saoradh offices in the north and the locals telling them they're not wanted. Fair play to them.
IRA black metal cud be a seller
This gave me a laugh. According to this it will be business as usual between Ireland and England even if this "brexit" goes ahead.
They talked about the common travel area and it was written about in the memorandum of understanding (MoU).
The Memorandum of Understanding, did you ever hear such Harry Potter grade bullshit in your life? 🤣🤣🤣
And we will take the memorandum of understanding and file it in the cabinet of containment ;D
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/08/british-irish-deal-guarantee-rights-citizens-after-brexit
The shitshow has taken a few interesting twists in the last couple of weeks. Pelosi threatening to scupper a UK-US trade deal was quite a spicy meatball, as is the ongoing threat of revolt among Tory backbenchers to ensure a no-deal Brexit does not happen. It's hard to see what negotiating room Johnson has, other than driving it all off a cliff. I don't quite understand what people see in him, if there is some wicked intelligence in that skull he hides it well, so it's quite possible that's how it's going to go either way. "No deal" has been identified as the most damaging of all outcomes by their own studies, though they're playing it down.
Johnson's letter to the EU using terms like "anti-democratic" about the backstop while still hinting it's a fallback position is a little silly, as is the constant referral to alternatives without being able to explain what they are. Tusk has just shot it down and a few other EU leaders have done the same.
It's coming across like the most inept political campaign I can ever recall. I'm waiting for the UK to come up with something, anything, other than hot air but, as yet, nothing else is coming. This can't be it, surely? They have to have some idea of what they're doing?
Three years on and one thing is clear, there is no plan. What can Boris do that May couldn't considering Europe have consistently said there is no room for manoeuvre. Hadn't wait to hit the dole queue again in six months :laugh:
It certainly does not help with British mainstream news media repeating misunderstandings and worse, misrepresentations of fact. I'm seriously sick of the bullshit. Saw discussion this morning from a journalist swearing blind that the backstop would apply to the whole of the UK! Also, now successive Tory governments ceding to the position of the dup for the sake of parliamentary arithmetic. As Dr. Phil would say "How's that working out for ya?"
Quote from: Pedrito on April 23, 2019, 04:40:01 PM
IRA black metal cud be a seller
Giving new meaning to "blast" beats.
A big day, today. How the Remain half of the country aren't out on the streets and wreckin' the gaff is a mystery.
Wow, what a move, it's a win-win for him now no matter what happens. He has done what his support want, despite the outrage, even within the Conservatives. Bit of playah this Boris lad
I dunno, I reckon the first oder of business when parliament resumes will be a motion of no confidence against him. When the likes of Bercow come out against you, you know you've gone too far.
As I said win-win. His game is to show the electorate that he wants Brexit pushed through no matter what. He is upholding a democratic vote and it is the representatives of the people who would be stopping that. If they oppose him, I think he returns to office with a whole new party that would have been voted back in to support him. This is gone beyond back-stops now and is a vote for democracy as such, or at least that's how it will be sold. I think it's a ballsy move by him and will be seen that way by those who tend to vote that towards the Conservative end of things. It also brings a lot of that Brexit party vote closer to shore and offers them a viable alternative to Farage etc.
(Not saying I agree or disagree with Brexit or Boris or anything else for that matter).
I assume the queen didn't have the authority to say "no way, now get back in there to sort it".
She did, but it's a power that's never used.
She and Sinn Fein are alike in so many ways.
QuoteSad times for Britain's ancient and hallowed democracy, which dates all the way back to when Catholics in Northern Ireland got the vote in 1969.
https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1167087479062781953
Talk now of Boris calling a General Election to take place before 31st of October, good timing given Tony Blair has recently been talking about the Conservatives setting a trap for Labour with that very trick. This truly is the Greatest Show on Earth.
How is it a trap? Calling Corbyn's bluff or confident that the country will vote for Boris? I heard an expert on the radio mention it but didn't pick up the gist. Surely there's every chance that Boris could be voted out so it's a risky strategy, or am I missing something?
Blair is very much in the "This will be a total fucking disaster for our country" camp. By Brexit being implemented under Labour, they are responsible for it and doomed to be remembered for it.
I don't see how they could be doomed to be remembered for it even if it ends up being implemented under Labour when it's taken no less than three Tory Prime Ministers to take them this far into the shit storm, including Cameron for calling the referendum. Sure, the Tories may try to blame them for any fuck up, but I don't think that will play too well at any point in the near future (say, a generation's worth of time).
As predicted, Boris will call an election, be voted back in, and then there can be no way back. I'm hearing loads of logical arguments for and against Brexit and everything that surrounds it, but I think that's all going to go out the window now and the vote will take on a 'you didn't listen to us last time' air vs 'they lied to us about everything'. I expect the pro Brexit bunch to come out in droves and vote Johnson back in as a result.
Again, not saying that I agree with any of the above, it's better than any soap.
That seems like a ludicrous plan. Johnson is trying to get voted out of a role he has hungered for for all of his career??
Or, he could let Labour share some of the load for the shit-show, then blame them for tying Britain to the backstop and not delivering Brexit or for not agreeing a deal and delivering the no-deal catastrophe it seems we're destined to witness. Come the next election, after a few years of the consequences, he gets to say "I told you so" no matter which way it goes and waltz back in. Whatever about delivering Brexit, those who are associated with the aftermath appear to be supping from the oul poisoned chalice. All the promises and lies are going to be exposed very, very soon and you'd have to expect that is dawning on all but the most radical of Brexit fanatics.
Hmmmm, Labour won't get voted in. If anything they'll lose votes.
QuoteThe government is expected to table a motion to hold a general election on 14 October if it is defeated by MPs opposed to a no-deal Brexit on Tuesday. Boris Johnson said he did not want an election, but progress with the EU would be "impossible" if they won. Speaking outside No 10, Mr Johnson insisted that with MPs' backing, he would be able to achieve changes to the UK's current Brexit deal - negotiated by Theresa May and rejected three times in the Commons - at an EU summit on 17 October.
But he said if MPs voted to block no deal they would "plainly chop the legs out from under the UK position".
in other words, "If we can't threaten the EU with a chaotic departure which will damage both them and especially us, then we cannot try to force changes to the agreement we negotiated and... agreed with" :laugh:
I hope to fuck they leave this motion until after I get from work because it will make for great, great telly
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Commons
The Blair insight is bang on the money. People would rather vote 'for Brexit' or moreso 'towards the Brexit end of the scale than vote for 'Corbyn'. I think Johnson might be the sneakiest, shrewdest cunt we've seen in a long, long time.
Since Blair at least!
Quote from: Pedrito on September 02, 2019, 09:21:09 PM
I think Johnson might be the sneakiest, shrewdest cunt we've seen in a long, long time.
Undoubtedly. What has he ever done of note (in a good way) but he's fucking PM? :laugh:
Now the British government is saying all UK cars must display a "GB" sticker on the back of their car when driving in the EU after Brexit. This includes NI cars driving south of the border which, as NI is part of the UK but not GB, seems a little silly and, of course, has irked the Sinn Feiners up North.
It's all kicking off. One Tory defector to the Lib Dems means there is no more majority. The bill ruling out no-deal in October is practically guaranteed. It all comes down to whether they can force an election now.
QuoteConservative MP Ken Clarke says the PM has "an obvious strategy".
"He will set conditions that make no deal inevitable, he will make sure as much blame as possible is attached to the EU and this House for that consequence, and then as quickly as he can, he will fight a flag-raising election before the consequences of no deal become obvious," he says.
I cannot wait to get home and get this on the telly :laugh:
A couple defected today alright, so a general election looks likely. Is it going to be a case of the Lib Dems and Labour splitting the vote of those who are either Remainers and Anti-No Dealers but still leaving the hardcore Conservatives with a majority?
What a shitshow
Ah no, it looks like they have finally got a handle on things. Fair play, lads.
:laugh:
It was only ever going to end up this way. Back to the people now to decide where they go from here.
Even if they held another referendum and decided to stay, I wonder how long it would take to mend all the fragmentation that the process has caused.
Or brought to light rather than caused, maybe.
Great drama. There are some total cunts in that place, real vile individuals. It's incredible that such obvious human filth can get elected and says much about the ones voting them in. What was noticeable was the lack of talk of alternatives to a backstop. It was brought up by a couple of MPs but continually danced around and the topic quickly changed. Many of the more animated Brexiters gave the impression of not giving a flying fuck about NI, yet this is who the DUP have thrown their lot in with. For all the continuous talk of "getting a deal" and not restricting Johnson's ability to do so, little recognition was given to the GFA and the implications of a border. It's clear no fucks at all are given about alternatives to the backstop by the current cabinet, they blindly want this no matter what the implications are to the people of NI. Interesting to see Sylvia Hermon speak out and vote against the government while the DUP vote for chaos for those they claim to represent.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on September 04, 2019, 06:44:20 AM
Even if they held another referendum and decided to stay, I wonder how long it would take to mend all the fragmentation that the process has caused.
I don't think it will mend. I don't think the Brexit fanatics see the harm their zealotry is causing. Hermon sees no-deal as sending people into the arms of Sinn Fein. The SNP see this as their ticket to Scottish independence and it's hard to argue with them. This is coming across as London looking after London and fuck the consequences for everyone else. The arrogance of Rees-Mogg was staggering last night.
He looked a proper cunt slouched across the benches last night.
What the fuck was he at? Was he making a point or something? Or was he just a lazy bastard. For someone who proudly says he's never worn jeans or changed a nappy, he looked like a lout .
Just a slimey, arrogant shitstain.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on September 04, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
Just a slimey, arrogant shitstain.
He sure is. And (link below) has his company in offshore tax havens so Brexit works really well for him. The EU is trying to bring in laws to tax these havens so Brexit has the luxury of keeping his company away from those taxes. Follow the money.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven
As much as he might be a posh twat, there are a tonne of people in the U.K. who keep money offshore, Brexiteers, Non-Brexiteers, Monarchists,Separatists etc. It's the usual smearing that takes place around these issues.
On a related note and far more pertinent note though, it would be interesting to understand what Brexit would mean for the likes of Google, Paypal, Amazon etc, who suck money out of the UK market at a phenomenal rate. If we look at the £10.9bn that Amazon made last year on which they only paid £220m in tax, there is something seriously wrong with those numbers. Ireland along with the EU, by my layman understanding, has enabled a lot of that flow of money out of the country and I would wonder what would happen as a result.
This is all very similar to Trump taking on China, but when you're being held over a barrel bleeding money, maybe things need to change.
Again, I'm not fitting the Anti Brexit narrative here because it is important to understand the reasons why Brexit might make sense as opposed to a 'they're all fucking thick' response, which, quite frankly, I don/ buy for one second.
The consequences for Ireland are frightening tbh. I worked for nearly a decade in Dublin in client/merchant services for one of the UK's biggest payment providers. The portfolio that I looked after were companies that did around £400m anually of which the portion they paid on those profits to us, all filters out of the UK, through Ireland, out the back door to the Carribean. When I think that I worked in a team of 20-30, that has grown even more in the last 10 years, the financial aspect is massive.
I know countless people working in similar roles all around Dublin. They're not working on the Irish market but on the UK market.
Anyone here working in a similar capacity and what is the general feeling in workplaces around Brexit?
Aside from that, it seems the house of lords may have a role to play yet in all this, delaying yesterday's bill to the point that it will be defeated..the plot thickens.
The Tory Lords are trying to get it theough now so they can resume trying to get Corbyn to agree to an election. If they can’t get Labour to agree to an election before they themselves close Parliament next week then there won’t be an election before the Brexit deadline in October. You couldn’t make it up.
So the UK could end up leaving the EU without a deal and without a government in place to make a deal?
It's not inconceivable that that is their plan to ensure they leave :laugh:
Rees-Mogg has announced the motion for the General Election will be on Monday's Commons agenda. Again. The no-deal bill passed yesterday has not yet cleared the Lords, you will notice. Utter cuntery.
I know the Lords can veto it, but are they likely to? What's their make-up compared to the lads in the commons?
Supposedly not veto it, just wade through another 80 bills in the 3 day timeframe before coming to it, 3 days being the cut off point for it to get through.
Ah, ok.
Where is Nigel Farage in all of this? Aren't we all here because of him? No sign of him. He was either serious or was a massive troll, or both. Campaigns on leaving the EU, wins then leaves a crushing domino effect which bizarrely is taken up by even more idiots. Point the finger at Johnson all you want but it's Farage who lit the fire. Where is he now?
Brexit party which won a tonne of the votes in the European elections and has 29 seats in Brussels. He's licking his lips for an election.
Yep, if the Brexit party run candidates they could wipe out the Conservatives who have also aligned themselves to the "Brexit and/or Death" policy.
The only thing with European elections is that people tend to vote differently there. Just look at Ireland. Ming, Mick Wallace(gangster) etc who get voted in but then when it comes to electing a government people are far more prudent and conservative.
The Brexit party does well as a protest vote in Euro elections but the jury is out as to whether that would transfer into members of parliament. Certainly UKIP has no members of parliament and yet was the largest UK party in the European Parliament which hints at some strange flaw in the way we are running elections or maybe not?
Opposition parties have agreed not to support an election. What will Boris do now?
Is that until the bill against a no deal Brexit is passed? Or regardless?
Regardless, for now. The current bill only covers the 31st of October deadline. Once the election is called, it has to be completed within a certain time, I think, because he has to ask the Queen to dissolve that government so a new one can be formed, so Parliament can't sit until after the election takes place. That might have gotten them to the current deadline but, until the opposition are sure he can't have Parliament not sitting through the deadline, they're not playing ball.
Does there have to be a majority for an election to be called? Or can Boris just dissolve parliament
They run a fixed-term system there. He needs two-thirds in support or he has to suck it up.
So in theory, assuming this motion against a No-Deal passes, and Boris doesn't get enough Ayes to call for an election, could that completely tie his arms in his negotiations with the EU? As in, he would be forced to negotiate a deal, as a No-Deal is outta the question.
Correct. I'm sure there'll be a few more twists along the way though.
The fun after that is any deal must still be passed by Parliament which, as we know, will be a shambles. That being said, that sneaky cunt Gove said he would now vote for May's deal were it to be presented to the Commons again.
Wasn't he in the run for PM last time?
Whatever about the Tories, you'd have to wonder about the alternative if that altwrnative is going to be this absolute mongo
https://youtu.be/CSa2wvJCIEc
Everytime I've seen her on Question Time or interviewed, the absolute bollox that comes out of her mouth is frightening.
This is a good breakdown of where things stand today
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49612757
Amber Rudd, the latest to jump ship.
I struggle to keep up with the endless twists and turns of Brexit and how each new development (definitely not the word I'm looking for!) has some obscure effect somewhere else, but even to my untrained eye the chaos and drama of the past two weeks looks frightening. I wonder how all this will be written into history. How will the narrative run.
Quote from: Pedrito on September 05, 2019, 01:32:37 PM
Again, I'm not fitting the Anti Brexit narrative here because it is important to understand the reasons why Brexit might make sense as opposed to a 'they're all fucking thick' response, which, quite frankly, I don/ buy for one second.
Disagree there, how is it that the rest of us have been able to see the whole thing for the utter shitshow it is? You have to draw a line somewhere. Fact of the matter is, a lot of people are completely fucking ignorant, it's not PC to say, but I wouldn't be giving anyone credit either.
Really really dislike this "all opinions have legitimacy" bullshit that's become part of discourse in the past few years.
It has absolutely nothing to do with that type of nonsense. There are thick cunts everywhere, but, and you may well disagree, but you are definitely wrong, Nigel Farage is not thick. Neither is Boris Johnson or a tonne of other politicians that pushed Brexit. They did it for valid reasons from their perspectives. Their electorate wanted it. There are many up and and down Europe who are very worried where Europe was headed, the power it was gaining. I'm very pro Europe, I live in Spain ffs, but I'm not blind to the fact that it has major negatives. If you only look at the amount of money the likes of Britain put into Europe, there are definite reasons for questioning the whole structure. Also depending on how you feel politically, having a supreme, unelected council mandating everything from Brussels could be interpreted in a variety of ways. We, as Irish people don't understand the negative sides to Europe(although the Troika etc should have been fair warning). We have milked it for all it's worth and it's been great for us. There are large swathes of people across Europe who don't share that opinion and Europe hasn't been a change for the better for them. So you can sing from the mainstream hymnsheet or you can look into maybe why 17m people didn't want the UK to stay in the EU and not come up with some bollox answer like they're all thick which is literally the height of arrogance to be frank.
Great theatre right now. Boris is still refusing to ask for an extension, in contravention of law, and the opposition are refusing to play ball with the election. I missed it but it looks like there was a vote earlier to release the Yellowhammer study which outline the effects of no-deal but, already, the Tories are apparently trying to find ways to not release the documents to Parliament.
It has been an amazing few days. Bercow standing down with all the drama of an Eastenders Christmas special. An absolute self serving egotist if ever I have seen one, and I used really enjoy listening to him. The way this is going, it will be in all history classes in 100 years time and god knows where it's going to end up.
Looking in from the outside, as an Irish person, we always take the anti Posh twat Tory line, but what's becoming apparent to me from reading and listening to various opinions outside of the mainstream Anti-Brexit line is that there is a huge feeling that Brexit is being held back by vested interests, mainstream media, and liberal elites who believe that what they say should go and screw the democratic vote of the people that took place. This brings me back again to the Lisbon Treaty and how we were coralled into voting yes the second time, and no matter how good Europe can be, that that blasé approach to democracy has been gaining steam for a long time in Brussels.
Not saying I necessarily believe all of the above, but I can, at least, see where they are coming from. At this stage, I think not leaving could have massive consequences for the entire European project and that they might be far better off cutting the UK off now before it gathers further steam.
Interesting times ahead..
Didn't the Tories try to have a second vote on the same thing yesterday? So much for respecting democracy :laugh:
I see where you're coming from and I think it's valid. I also think that there is a serious interest in destabilising Europe coming from the likes of China and Russia and even the US. The comments coming out of Trump and Bolton about wanting Brexit before there was Brexit betray this. They don't want a stable European state as a global superpower, clearly. There's no doubt the EU would be vastly stronger with a committed Britain as part of it. Them leaving does no obvious good for anyone in Britain or the remaining EU states. For all the faults of the EU, and there are many, I think overall it has been an incredible force for good, especially here and, despite the fears of federalisation, I'd say you're better in it than outside it if you're geographically in Europe.
I'd tend to agree, and yes it is true that them other powers are only to happy to see this happening.
The Supreme Court has unanimously ruled that prorogation was unlawful :o
I can't wait for nothing to be done about it :P
:laugh:
Wow, I'm surprised it went against him.
He hasn't had the best of starts to his new job. This ruling basically reaffirms the Scottish ruling that he intentionally misled the Queen.
The beheading of a sitting PM would be a massive PPV event if Sky could get the rights to it.
It's amazing how much more of a complete fuck up Johnson's short term as PM has been, even compared with May. It looked messy and chaotic with her, but it's like a circus with himself.
You'll only get so far on bullshit alone. He has been rudely found out. Surely he cannot survive as PM after this?
There's certainly that, but I think it's the ball of shite poisoned chalice of Brexit that's the real issue. It's something the UK should have discussed, worked out and planned for long before holding a referendum on it, if they really wanted to do it. It looks more like a knee jerk reaction against the status quo that has gone horribly wrong but they are so full of their own pride and self- importance as a nation- at this stage people seem to be just getting on board for the sake of it, despite the whole thing being a massive car crash- that they can't find a way to turn back. I know there are probably many very reasonable reasons that they might want to leave but this looks like a cluster fuck that might damage at least a generation of people. And it might well fuck us in the process.
True, but I think his approach has been responsible for this particular spectacle. It appears he thought he could bluff his way through it. May, as dismal as her term was, at least appeared to be trying to do the right thing by the referendum result. It'll be a thankless task, no matter how it turns out, but to have willingly destroyed your Parliamentary majority and been unanimously found by the Supreme Court to have misled the Queen to prevent Parliament from performing their duty - all in a few short weeks - is a tremendous feat by any standard.
His great acheivement is getting this far with no discernable skills or record of success.
From BBC
QuoteRichard Tice, chairman of the Brexit Party, tells the BBC that today's decision is "seismic, historic" but MPs must think about what happens next.
"As soon as Parliament is recalled tomorrow, Boris Johnson is probably going to have to offer his resignation," he says.
"There may well be a vote of no confidence."
He says the public must now realise that "we're not leaving the EU on 31 October".
"There will have to be an extension. When that penny drops, people are going to be increasingly angry across the country," he says.
Mr Tice says there will probably have to be an election in the first half of November.
"What does it say about the so-called master strategist Dominic Cummings? I trust he will be offering his resignation today."
Didn't the government also spend something like £100m on information and advertising they were leaving on that date? :laugh:
Will the EU allow them to continue to make extension after extension?
Quote from: Eoin McLove on September 24, 2019, 12:22:09 PM
Will the EU allow them to continue to make extension after extension?
I'd assume they would as it's still in their interests for the UK to stay with the EU, but then again they're probably getting as fed up with the British government as every else
I just read an interesting commentary on the Monarch’s involvement in this and the grey areas around the role the Queen plays in Government. Johnson has exposed a massive flaw in how it all functions, how open it is to exploitation, and there are calls for the UK to finally have a written constitution. That would require the role of the Monarch in a democratically elected Government to be very explicitly defined. That won’t go down well.
The no deal scenario looks set for the end of next month. When the dust settles on that the British electorate will have to take a very serious look at their political class. Nobody on either side has behaved well. It was used by all of them to attempt to score cheap political points instead of looking our for the UK's best interest.
The political class didn't vote for it, the working class did. The rude awakening will have been earned.
QuoteOutside Tommyfield Market in the town centre former cotton mill worker Sid Jones says Oldham was "abandoned" by successive governments.
"People lost their jobs and livelihoods and no one cared. There used to be nearly 700 stalls in this market, and it was very, very active, and then the supermarkets came, and the stalls disappeared."
He believes a return to past glories, can be achieved by leaving the EU.
"We used to have not just cotton mills, there was mining, steel mills, foundries, there was a hell of a lot of work."
"We're restricted because of the European governing bodies, which is wrong ... there will always be people who will want to buy British."
It is a view shared by Susan, a retired school worker who cites Boris Johnson's well worn phrase "lets get Brexit done".
"We need to get on with our lives, and be a great England again," she says.
When asked what being a "great England" actually means she looks to the past.
"We had cotton mills, we had steel, we had everything, and now we've got nothing. It's all been put abroad and we need it back.
"We used to be a great nation, and now we're not. All the other countries are laughing at us, they think we're idiots. We need to get it back, just get on with it."
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0929/1078910-tory-party-conference/
Delusional bullshite. Those jobs have been rendered obsolete by advancements in technology, not because of the bogeyman EU. Do these twits think that the old empire will spring back to life and take over the world by returning to a Dickensian England?? Imagine what a laughing stock they'd be then!
Quote from: Eoin McLove on September 29, 2019, 04:59:57 PM
Delusional bullshite. Those jobs have been rendered obsolete by advancements in technology, not because of the bogeyman EU. Do these twits think that the old empire will spring back to life and take over the world by returning to a Dickensian England?? Imagine what a laughing stock they'd be then!
Exactly. How fucking thick are some people. Pining for a England of nostalgia, tea and crumpets and good ould coal mines. They deserve a hard brexit.
It's hardly an unbiased article but mates of mine who live over there say they hear much of the same thing among their friends and work colleagues. They reckon, were another referendum to take place, Brexit would win by a much bigger margin. The absence of a plan and, therefore, a deal is small change compared to the inconvenience of Brexit dominating the news every day. They're tired of hearing about it and wish it upon themselves swiftly regardless of the consequences (which they haven't really thought about).
Quote from: Juggz on September 29, 2019, 06:15:31 PM
It's hardly an unbiased article but mates of mine who live over there say they hear much of the same thing among their friends and work colleagues. They reckon, were another referendum to take place, Brexit would win by a much bigger margin. The absence of a plan and, therefore, a deal is small change compared to the inconvenience of Brexit dominating the news every day. They're tired of hearing about it and wish it upon themselves swiftly regardless of the consequences (which they haven't really thought about).
If they're tired of hearing about it now what's going to happen when it continues to dominate the news, their economy, their politics....for years to come
RTE are reporting that one of the alternatives to the backstop which was proposed by the UK Government is... a hard border.
It's just not quite at the border, you see, so it's not really a hard border?
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0930/1079253-border/
It's three borders! One either side of the 'soft' border and one in the sea. Perfect solution.
By the time Boris is done with his borders Ireland will look like a bowl of spaghetti.
Jaysus
QuoteBut the prime minister insisted "that's not what we're proposing at all".
He would not reveal details of the proposals to be put to the EU, saying in an interview with BBC Radio 4's Today programme, he "would like to veil our proposals in decent obscurity" before sharing them.
"Indecent obscurity" sums up Brexit pretty well so far :P
Now, finally, they are saying out loud what they have pretended wouldn't happen for three fucking years.
QuoteBoris Johnson says the "reality" of Brexit is there will need to be customs checks on the island of Ireland after the UK leaves the EU. But the PM rejected claims that would effectively mean a hard border, in the form of a series of customs posts set five or 10 miles back. He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "A sovereign united country must have a single customs territory."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49890199
This whole thing just gets thicker every day.
Even though I live on the border I'm gone beyond giving a phuck at this stage.
Some of my colleagues, who like myself cross the border every day are apprehensive about the whole thing though. "Will I have to leave home earlier to get to work?"... etc....
.
I watched this earlier and, knowing fuck all about economics, I found it interesting and illuminating. He seems to be of the opinion that Brexit will be little more than a fart in the wind, economically speaking- he doesn't go into the border issue which might appear completely irrelevant to his Canadian audience. His outlook on the climate issue being sorted out is equally positive. Maybe some of you eggheads can pick out the flaws in his arguments.
https://youtu.be/KGuaoARJYU0
Of course it will be, it's just we're having a collective drama queen assburgers freak out at the moment. That's what happens when language has become so hyperbolic that superlatives hold little or no meaning anymore. When some cunt who can barely hold a note is told he/she is 'amazing' 'incredible' then how can you catch peoples' attention when it comes to issues that really matter? So the problem is not Brexit or the environment. The problem is more to do with language which seems to be the root of nearly every problem we've ever had.
I think there are real challenges, though, and both have the potential to be utterly disastrous if not handled properly. I agree that the hyperbole is no help when it comes to Brexit, and that the damage caused so far in terms of fracturing the country over the issue might be long lasting, and that's not even taking the border into consideration. I would prefer to see the UK stay inside the EU but I also think that if they are leaving the world won't end. There might be another cunt of a recession to deal with for all of us on these isles and that won't be fun, but trade and economics will be sorted out sooner or later. The way they've gone about leaving seems backward to me and I think that a lot of the reasoning for leaving is possibly flawed, but that's another story.
The hyperbole might actually have helped in some way in terms of the climate issue. I don't mean Greta, as she is riding on the crest of a wave that has been building for a generation but l think that the general shift in attitude has helped in its way. Surely tough, the main motivating factor in all of it is money.
Merkel insists NI must stay in Customs Union, otherwise it's no deal. Arlene "what a lovely lady" Foster responds:
QuoteThe comments from the German chancellor to the prime minister that Northern Ireland must remain in the EU customs union forever now reveal the real objective of Dublin and the European Union.
For the United Kingdom to be asked to leave a part of its sovereign territory in a foreign organisation of which the UK would no longer be a part and over which we would have no say whatsoever is beyond crazy. No UK government could ever concede such a surrender.
The EU is not interested in a negotiated outcome at this time. Their position is the UK can only leave with a deal if it agrees a binding piece of international law permanently tying either the whole country or a part of it to the EU's legal order over which it has no control.
The true purpose of the "backstop" is now in the open for all to see. Those who eagerly supported the backstop as the best of both worlds can now see the error of that assessment. It was neither temporary nor an insurance policy.
It appears that Martin Selmayr's remarks about Northern Ireland being the price of Brexit is still the EU negotiating stance.
The prime minister's proposals have flushed out Dublin's real intentions to trap Northern Ireland in the EU customs union forever, where Dublin rather than the United Kingdom's elected representatives would be in the driving seat.
We will not accept any such ultimatum or outcome.
Not helpful from either side.
Agreed. The level of ball acting from both sides seems to have increased exponentially every month for the last three years. Young children could have handled the whole lot more maturely.
True, but having a border - just not at the border - which the DUP can veto was never the best idea in the world. I suspect (hope) there are more serious proposals in the pipeline and they're just playing hardball, seeing who'll blink first. It would be thoroughly depressing if this is the best our and their politicians can do.
Can somebody just shove that gowl Foster down a deep, dark hole already, please?
Parliament prorouged again by Johnson
Watched the clip just now, a lot quiter and a lot less people there this time around.
Such an embarrassment, more time spent going through the motions of all these silly archaic motions and speech rather than getting shot sorted
There are rumours of another mass Tory resignation on the way. On the positive side, parliament will sit on a Saturday for only the fourth time since 1939. Two were for the outbreak of WW2 and the other for the Falklands. The easiest deal in history, for sure.
Do they get over time for weekends?
https://youtu.be/8injz0HKeYA
Interesting discussion here with Brendan O'Neill (I've never visited Spiked Online so I'm not familiar with him). He makes some very interesting points and observations on the various hot topics of the day- climate change, Extinction Rebellion, Greta Thunberg and, probably most controversially, Brexit. I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with everything he is saying, certainly I think the Brexit issue is still incredibly uncertain in terms of outcome, but his overall take on things is at least refreshing and atypical compared to what is being pushed by mainstream media. He sounds like the kind of generally reasonable centrist who gets called a Nazi these days which goes to show how far the goalposts have moved in recent years.
'too long won't listen' summary?
Greta being manipulated by her parents and certain hardline Christian groups in Sweden and presented as a messianic oracle type, armed with prophecies of the forthcoming fire and flood of climate change. A total abandonment of reason, misuse of scientific findings regarding the climate to whip up fear and panic with an underlying stench of personal profit (producing and selling merch).
The last point tips into the ER movement as well. He claims it is a bourgeois, middle class movement and likens it to the west hoisting up the draw bridge of progress while 3 billion people still languish in abject poverty across the globe. Also refers to the green movement as a Trojan Horse for socialism or communism.
Puts his faith in economic and scientific progress to both raise the 3rd world out of poverty and solve the climate issues as opposed to ceasing all use of electricity, cars, planes etc.
All of that I'm more or less in tune with.
His stance on Brexit is interesting and he makes some interesting arguments as to why people voted to leave but I'm not entirely sure I'm on board with it. Lack of transparency, not liking the idea of being run by Brussels, but more importantly seeing Brexit as an opportunity to shake up the government they are dissatisfied with. He puts it more eloquently than I ever could and is at least engaging but he doesn't really say that beyond that rattling of the elites, to what end it is aimed. How will it reform English politics? No mention of the border, no actual insights into the economic practicalities etc...
Still, an interesting listen.
There's also an overall view that the left are no longer operating from the left and, I'm inferring, there has been a move from the right to fill that empty space. Reason, democracy, freedom of speech and racial equality, sexuality/gender-based equality in its true sense, traditional feminism etc seem to be abandoned and undermined by the hardline lefties. Now to even hold those positions, or question the modularization of all of those identifiers, is so far to the right of their line that to uphold those ideals is seen as right wing or suspect. It's like the poles have flipped.
Disappointingly, Spiked looks like utter shite to me. He comes across as affable, reasonable and convincing in interviews but the articles on the site (both from him and the few other ones l looked at from other contributors) seem more smug, combative and repellent in their tone. Strangely they seem to be aimed more specifically toward a right leaning readership, even if the content of the articles is generally fairly sensible. Or at least, that was my impression.
Yeah, was just curious about his take on Brexit. Nemty posted the vid on FB last week so I'd already tried to follow back the claims re Greta and ER and had found no sources referenced anywhere in the shitty articles linked, so I'll take it it was all just ideas pulled out of the echo chamber which have a ring of plausibility about them but weak, if any, roots.
Hook me up with some reading/ viewing from somebody you'd consider to be convincing on all or any of these topics. Ideally ideology free voices, if that's even possible with this stuff.
On Brexit? There's no ideology free voices on Brexit. For or against, it's a choice based on ideology.
On climate stuff, different thread innit... but, no, still can't think of anyone. That climatologist in the video interview with the ER woman seemed to have his feet on the ground though, presumably he's written/talked about it in length elsewhere or else they wouldn't have picked him to be on telly.
Boris Johnson has agreed a leave deal with the EU, apparently. It keeps NI in a European customs arrangement with a border in the Irish sea. Arlene will love this :laugh:
So keeping the backstop then? Can't wait to see how similar this is to May's deal that he spent so long pissing and moaning about
I've an amazing mental picture of Arlene throwing a tantrum and roaring like a man in temper... I'm probably not wrong :laugh:
Quote from: Wiseblood on October 17, 2019, 01:04:42 PM
I've an amazing mental picture of Arlene throwing a tantrum and roaring like a man in temper... I'm probably not wrong :laugh:
S(he)'s some brute alright.. :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SsOmjwZKrI
This feels like a real booby trap situation now for the vote tomorrow. Anyone pushing to vote against the deal will be in career free-fall if no extension is granted and they end up out with no deal. And it's pretty damn tough to call whether an extension would be granted!
I thought it was illegal for them to leave without a deal or has that changed?
Quote from: Eoin McLove on October 18, 2019, 05:32:15 PM
I thought it was illegal for them to leave without a deal or has that changed?
I think it's if they didn't have a deal by the 19th they had to legally request an extension, since there's a deal made I'm guessing that goes out while they try to push it through parliament?
Could be completely wrong on this, getting hard to keep up with all the goings on
It's only a deal if Parliament passes it. If they don't, Johnson is bound by law to apply for an extension. The EU are not obliged to grant the extension. Tomorrow will be a day of great drama.
Looks like Boris is dead in a ditch.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lFdGW-C-79A/Xa7AKzPdm6I/AAAAAAAAHIE/wmCZcISyQsAFZOBlBUnWpr5BQu3zCCw8QCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2019-10-22.jpg)
General election 12th December...just make it all go away, so relentlessly tiresome!
Couldn't agree more. Just make it all go away.
Farage threatening to run candidates if Boris doesn't play ball is big. They could take great chunks of voters from the Tories and they both know it. How that fucking weasel co-ordinated his offer to Boris with an exclusive interview with Trump shows how much interest there is from the US in a damaging exit for the UK and the EU. Global cuntism on a grand scale and the EU were supposed to be the sinister organisation?
How does it benefit the US for them to leave with a bad deal? Surely their dealings with America will be their own regardless of their trade relationship with Europe? I know I'm missing something here...
Quote from: Pedrito on September 02, 2019, 09:21:09 PM
The Blair insight is bang on the money. People would rather vote 'for Brexit' or moreso 'towards the Brexit end of the scale than vote for 'Corbyn'. I think Johnson might be the sneakiest, shrewdest cunt we've seen in a long, long time.
Definitely the sneakiest, shrewdest cunt we've seen since Thatcher...I'm not sure how to process that, but politically he is far from a fool. Looks like Brexit will finally be done
Sorry, the sneakiest, shrewdest conservative. Blair was equally as snakey, if not an even greater political animal.
Pound flying high, Boris rocks
Looks like further interesting times ahead. A second Scottish referendum is being discussed and Northern nationalists gain a majority. I'm not really sure what that will mean if Sinn Féin refuse to sit, but we'll find out I'm sure. What implications might this have on the future of Northern Ireland? Getting Stormont back up and running will be a start. And what will it mean for Ireland economically? At least the UK can move forward with something as opposed to the deadlock of the past few years, I just hope the road ahead isn't too bumpy.
Interesting to see the Torys win in so many Labour areas. Shows how divisive a character Corbyn is. He has been a bit of a non event through all of this so maybe they'll come back with a real leader when the dust settles a bit.
Corbyn is divisive but the crux of it all is Brexit. It's telling that Jo Swinson lost her seat as Lib Dem leader. The arrogance of her to push for a second referendum must have really riled people. The farce of the last 6 months, with the opposition doing everything they could to prolong a slow painful drawn out Brexit. The absolute shitehawkery of the likes of John Bercow. The SNP are flying high in Scotland, but let's not forget that the referendulm was lost. There won't be another one for a long, long time, and even then it is debatable if they would vote to leave the UK.
As for Ireland..well we need to use all our powers of diplomacy now to look for a solution with(like it or not) our neighbour. Interesting times ahead and we need to play a shrewd hand to try and limit any potential damage. We need to be on the front foot offering solutions and not allow Europe or the UK to set the entire agenda. Politically speaking, very interesting times ahead.
The Scottish referendum took place before any notions of Brexit were aired and, if you say the crux of it is Brexit, then the Scottish have just renounced it comprehensively. They will push for a second referendum and, based on the SNP being very clear about leaving the UK and remaining in the EU, there appears to be quite a reasonable chance the outcome would be quite different this time around.
The independence movement lost the first referendum but a huge push on that was the idea that they would remain part of the EU. If they could negotiate possible acceptance of their membership I could see a second referendum easily pasaing
Exactly. The UK they voted to stay a part of is not the UK of today, there’s an entirely different complexion.
Thr spin has started already. 'SNP should be focussing on the health system and schooling which they're letting down'. This is politics. Give it enough time and those numbers can start to look very different. They'd be mad to have a Scottish referendum now(the Cons) and they won't be having one for a long long time if ever. Expect to see something similar to Madrid/Catalunya take place now.
Visas required for EU musicians to enter the UK to perform and, no doubt, the same will apply in reverse. This could affect the number of bands bothering their hole to go to the UK and then on to here and also bands from both sides of the border going to play the other side.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-touring-artists-will-need-visas-to-perform-in-the-uk-from-2021
A Green Card will be needed traveling from Northern Ireland to the Republic - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-53498374
But apparently not from Ireland to the UK - https://www.theaa.ie/blog/green-cards-need-to-know/
The whole Brexit thing seems to have been forgotten t about with all the other shite going on recently, but saw this thread earlier and found it interesting. I do wonder how it'll affect gigs on this side, I'm guessing most bands will throw in an Irish date because they're already doing a British tour
https://twitter.com/Howard_Goodall/status/1326554078256656389?s=09
As every day passes, it becomes clearer to even the most spasticated imperialist that Brexit was a fucking scam and their standard of living is immeasurably worse than it was 10 years ago. The predominantly right-wing media in the UK have savaged Starmer before his arse ever touched a chair in #10, regardless of his actual performance. The US has tried to fuck the UK in the ass several times in the last few years, and it becomes clearer every day they are now a small fish in a very big pond, so... I put it to you... any bets on when the UK rejoins the EU? It seems inevitable. Possibly some military alliance first but my money says they rejoin before the decade is out.
What say you?
Starmer is chomping at the bit to get back in. But how to present it to the great unwashed?
A majority of Brits want back in, according to most polls, no?
Didn't know that, that decade bet looks good so, I'd say less.
It's not massive like, though more than Leave won by in the first place.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/
Hmmm, they're like a kid left in the schoolyard without a gang now though, I agree they need to get back in and eat that humble pie but I'm sure Starmer is wary of the Brits First Brigade.
Probably, the walking wet blanket. John Majors' Spitting Image puppet had more charisma than that nasal arsehole.
I mean, not if Farage gets in next time around, and I'm not sure he can pull off BrexIn in the next 4yrs...
Do the Brits have it in them to admit defeat? :laugh:
Quote from: Eoin McLove on April 02, 2026, 12:51:30 AMDo the Brits have it in them to admit defeat? :laugh:
The English football team does a lot of heavy lifting on that front :laugh: