Brexit

[Pedrito]

I think you're all making fair points, and yes it shows how, almost anarchic, the democratic system can be. But there was 1 question put to the people...in or out,  and they voted out. I don't think it was mass madness or hysteria or stupidity. I think a lot of people thought that would be far better out of the EU and that the resulting bullshit would all iron itself out eventually. Everyone knew the EU would be wankers about it. Everyone knew about borders and Scotland and all the other stuff and they still said they'd be better off out of the EU..Now that's saying something.

I do believe there's a massive disconnect in the UK between regions. People feel like they have no say when it comes to decision making in London, well imagine another layer being added on top of that? Some beurocrat in Brussels deciding things that take place in your small patch of dirt hundreds of miles away.

The EU has been a massive force for good but more and more we are seeing sweeping decisions being made without ANY consultation to the people. Its not a coincidence that all around Europe and the world people are turning towards far more conservative and even right leaning politics. People feel massively let down and are sick to death of globalisation, centralisation, neo-liberalism etc. It all seems so inviting and cosy but once you start boiling it down you start to realise that it's unsustainable. Now, I would argue that there are huge benefits to open borders, free movement etc, but when you think that the vast majority of people are stressed enough with just trying to get to the end of the month, find a place for their child in a decent school, pay the mortgage and hopefully have a hospital bed available if they need it, then they are thinking on a far less utopian and idealistic level than those in Brussels, Merkel, Macron, Varadkar, Junker and their cronies. It will be good for the EU and for the remaining members in future...a kick in the ass was badly needed.

[Mower Liberation Front]

The problem with the negotiations is that May is a fucking disaster. She didn't vote for Brexit and she's trying to appease all sides. They need a far better negotiator in there fighting their corner.

I think that with her being a Remainer at heart, she's decided to sacrifice her career in order to sabotage Brexit. She's announced she won't be running at the next election, and if Brexit does not happen, I'd expect to see her rewarded with a nice European job.

[hellfire]

The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed

If the voters weren't properly informed of all negative aspects of leaving and positive aspects of staying then the remain side can blame themselves. They weren't asked to vote on every side issue. Leave or stay were the options and they voted to leave. By the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. 

[Trev]

The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed

If the voters weren't properly informed of all negative aspects of leaving and positive aspects of staying then the remain side can blame themselves. They weren't asked to vote on every side issue. Leave or stay were the options and they voted to leave. By the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with.

But that's just it, they couldn't have been informed of all aspects because there was no idea of how any issue, not just side issue, was going to be resolved. Especially the biggest stumbling block which is that the UK would still have a land border with the EU

It's all well and good saying it shouldn't be a problem between the two countries, but it potentially could be based on the WTO rules that will come into to effect in a no deal

[hellfire]

The redo is not going to happen. What may happen is a Brexit lite that pleases no one. Doing a referendum over because voters don't have a crystal ball is absurd. They had the facts and were aware of what was at stake.

[ochoill]

By the way, if the Irish and British governments don't want a hard border there then it should really be a non issue. Just the EU trying to use Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with.

It's not as easy as that unfortunately, and never could be, for us to stay in the single market we have to have controlled borders with non EU countries.  It's less of the EU using us to get one over on the UK, as you're making out, more about consideration for our own trade with other EU countries, which is vital to how we operate economically.  In and ideal world, it wouldn't be, but the world's not ideal and I don't see general irish industry being able to do as well without access to the single market and the EU trade agreements with third countries.

A special agreement could have been met by making NI a special area, allowing them to be part of the single market but in the UK too, which would have been excellent for the north - effectively making them a trade gateway to the UK from the EU in the future - but it has been thrown out of consideration already.  What a shame.

[Trev]

The redo is not going to happen. What may happen is a Brexit lite that pleases no one. Doing a referendum over because voters don't have a crystal ball is absurd. They had the facts and were aware of what was at stake.

They didn't have facts though because they couldn't have, because there was no deal at the time. What facts did they have on how the border was going to work?

The only certain fact they would either stay or leave

[Juggz]

To illustrate how badly informed, not only those who voted but, those who pushed for Brexit were and are, Rees-Mogg yesterday suggested that there would be no need for a hard border in Ireland in the case of a no-deal exit. He's working on the premise that EU and British law will be the same the day after the UK leave the EU. They will "trust", for example, EU food imports on Tuesday just as they did on Monday.

However, his vision was immediately dismissed by legal experts as a breach of World Trade Organization rules because it would amount to discriminatory practice.

His vision was dismissed as confused by the British Ports Association.

Incredible lack of logical thinking. Of course, once the EU or the UK change their customs laws, a hard border is also required straight away.  It's a long, long way away from the easiest deal in history which Liam Fox eulogised.

[Pedrito]

You'd swear we've never had to do this before though. Of course things aren't going to be completely straightforward but that's what we have politicians, negotiators, civil servants etc for. Agreements will have to be come to. It still doesn't mean that Britain should stay in the EU as a result. India, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Palestine/Israel...they had to negotiate their way through all these issues in the past and they'll do the same again.

[Juggz]

True, however, you'd have to acknowledge they're either maliciously misleading or incredibly ignorant.

[livingabortion]

If Britain fucks themselves that's one thing, they choose this bullshit. I just hope their shit doesn't taint things for us, (well, much, it's seemingly inevitable that it will somewhat).

[Juggz]

The vote on the exit deal is imminent and seemingly doomed to defeat. Tomorrow will prove fascinating as it appears to be swinging back towards leave in chaos or vote again whether to leave at all. Shambolic governance in a parliament full of vipers.

[Eoin McLove]

Such a cluster fuck. 

[Juggz]

Defeated by 432 votes to 202.

Destination: Brick wall.

[Eoin McLove]

Brussels rule out reopening the withdrawal agreement.  So... crashy crashy or another referendum?