Brexit

[Trev]

It wasn't a case of voting for the "right" answer though, in both those cases the treaties were renegotiated and amended after the first no vote and then put back out

[hellfire]

As you suggested earlier, it might be a good idea to put a full plan to the people before calling a referendum. Should we vote on abortion again now that the detail has been sorted? All other votes are accepted as final. Seems the EU runs on a best out of three system.

[Eoin McLove]

I think that's a false equivalence. People know what abortion is; nobody knows what Brexit is going to be.

[Juggz]

Precisely. Brexit is not what was advertised on the brochure. Had the people voted for the situation as it is now and as it appears to be going, it would probably be a quite different outcome. If you bought Brexit in a shop 18 months ago and it turned out like it is now, you would bring it back an ask for a refund. That is is determining the course of people's lives and livelihoods, it is unforgivable that people are tied to what amounts to a scam.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Wow, all this back and forth about the potential positives and negatives of Brexit and not yet a single mention of the ham-fisted toffs who are (or have been) the biggest driving forces behind it: Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Someone asked where the intelligent pro-Brexit voices were? I'd imagine there might be a couple alright, but it would be hard to be heard above that pack of pompous buffoons.

When thinking about Brexit today, especially if you have anti-EU sentiments (which I, for example, do, since I'm ideologically opposed to neo-liberal socio-economic policies), you have to distinguish between the idea of Britain leaving the EU, which is what the people voted for, and the reality of what is actually taking place towards making that happen. It would seem to be clear that the people who wanted it to happen (independent of their reasons) didn't have a good enough idea of what would be required to bring it successfully into effect. And whatever about Varadkar licking up to the EU top cats (which he certainly does), as Irish citizens we should be in no way surprised that the same group of retrogrades named above, gave little to no consideration to the land border they still hold with our state, and even got into bed with the worst enemies of our state currently inhabiting the island of Ireland (meaning the DUP, of course).

In short, leaving the EU being an arguably good thing does nothing to change the fact that the current leadership of the UK are, in my honest opinion, just as horrid (and what better insult for a group of toffs!) as those they wish to break away from.

[hellfire]

I think that's a false equivalence. People know what abortion is; nobody knows what Brexit is going to be.

It means Britain leaving the EU. Easier to understand than a medical procedure.

Precisely. Brexit is not what was advertised on the brochure. Had the people voted for the situation as it is now and as it appears to be going, it would probably be a quite different outcome. If you bought Brexit in a shop 18 months ago and it turned out like it is now, you would bring it back an ask for a refund. That is is determining the course of people's lives and livelihoods, it is unforgivable that people are tied to what amounts to a scam.

The only thing that has changed is that rather than act upon the peoples vote a hard core of British and European politicians are going out of their way to make a pants of it. Sore losers. A scam? how? Remaining in the EU ties them into  an increasingly authoritarian, corrupt and unelected superstate. Having less and less say over their own lives because their elected officials are bound to rules decided by people who were not voted for. If you bought the EEC and it became the EU it was like buying a Gremlin only to add water later.

[Eoin McLove]

Wow, all this back and forth about the potential positives and negatives of Brexit and not yet a single mention of the ham-fisted toffs who are (or have been) the biggest driving forces behind it: Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Theresa May, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Someone asked where the intelligent pro-Brexit voices were? I'd imagine there might be a couple alright, but it would be hard to be heard above that pack of pompous buffoons.

When thinking about Brexit today, especially if you have anti-EU sentiments (which I, for example, do, since I'm ideologically opposed to neo-liberal socio-economic policies), you have to distinguish between the idea of Britain leaving the EU, which is what the people voted for, and the reality of what is actually taking place towards making that happen. It would seem to be clear that the people who wanted it to happen (independent of their reasons) didn't have a good enough idea of what would be required to bring it successfully into effect. And whatever about Varadkar licking up to the EU top cats (which he certainly does), as Irish citizens we should be in no way surprised that the same group of retrogrades named above, gave little to no consideration to the land border they still hold with our state, and even got into bed with the worst enemies of our state currently inhabiting the island of Ireland (meaning the DUP, of course).

In short, leaving the EU being an arguably good thing does nothing to change the fact that the current leadership of the UK are, in my honest opinion, just as horrid (and what better insult for a group of toffs!) as those they wish to break away from.

Do you think that Brexit is,  in itself,  a good move,  it just needed better leadership? Is there any way Europe would have let them leave on more positive terms or would they have made it messy regardless of who was negotiating as a warning to other countries thinking of jumping ship?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I think, in itself, it's neither a good nor a bad move. Up to this point, however, its reality has been marked by a long series of, in themselves, bad moves.

[Pedrito]

Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting. People vote for different reasons but I believe the many do their homework before they put pen to paper.

The abortion vote is actually a very good example. There were definite closed minds on both sides, but I know lots of people who did the research and struggled with the whole question for a lot of time prior to the vote. They took their vote seriously. Some listened to testimonies from doctors on what can only be described as horrific procedures on an unborn child and they balanced that out with stories from people who had gone through rapes and unwanted pregnancies etc. It wasn't just a quick tick and drop of the pen.

The problem with the negotiations is that May is a fucking disaster. She didn't vote for Brexit and she's trying to appease all sides. They need a far better negotiator in there fighting their corner.

That said, the EU has no other choice than to be tough as fuck on this, otherwise the whole show could come down around their ears. I don't want to see that happen, but it needs a lot of reform. I think the UK are right to want to have more say in what goes on in and with their country because at the moment they are on the fringes when it comes to decision making.

[Trev]

It'll be interesting to see how it goes in terms of the union. I could easily see another independence referendum in Scotland within a few years. Northern Ireland is a bit harder to say since the DUP can seem to do whatever they want and they'll still have people that will vote for them

[Ollkiller]

Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting. People vote for different reasons but I believe the many do their homework before they put pen to paper.

A lot of people would have researched the issue but, and this is just my opinion, i in no way think the majority of people who voted to leave researched anything.  Not a fucking chance.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Whatever about who led the campaign, the reality is that a majority of people voted for it. We are being fed this line that they didn't know what they were voting for. If I had voted, I would find that highly insulting.

It's not necessarily insulting. It's reality: They didn't know that the current reality was what they were voting for. They didn't know that the people claiming to have a plan actually had no plan at all. They didn't know that major elements of a separation (the border is just one example) hadn't even been floated as considerations. They knew they wanted out of the EU, for a wide variety of reasons from demographic to demographic, but did they know what life in transit and post-Brexit would be like? How could they have? And now with the Brexiteers turning on each other like never before, what really is the plan now? There seems to be less cohesion than ever, which of course bodes awfully for the future, be that in or out of the EU.

If they wanted to do things democratically, then a series of referendums would have been needed, not about the same remain versus leave question, but to give the people a chance to guide things. You could say the general election was a chance to do just that, but again, would Labour have secured enough votes to win had the people been able to foresee the Tories getting into bed with the DUP (planted-by-God-to-test-us) dinosaurs? It's too easy to point at the big question and say, "We have to respect the people's choice!" But, quite simply, what the politicians cobble together after the fact doesn't always fit what the people thought their choice was going to materialize into. The "democratic" system itself is largely to blame, both for the shite they wanted out of the EU for and for the shite they're facing from their own Brexiteering government.

[hellfire]

During the run up to the vote all options were covered. The Irish government in particular were very vocal on the border issue.  The SNP were threatening another referendum. Trade deals were discussed at length by every economist from here to kingdom come. The rights of EU workers was addressed. The very real possibility of the EU acting like a pack of disgruntled babies was mentioned several times. For their part the EU swore to act like disgruntled babies.  There wasn't a one sided campaign to get Brexit to happen. Merkel and co said a trade deal wouldn't be done until after the UK left and there was all sorts of doomsday scenarios went through.  People knew nothing had been drawn up before the referendum and would require extensive negotiations.  The only thing they didn't know beforehand was that the remain side would throw all of their toys out of the pram and  do anything they could to stuff up negotiations. 

[Eoin McLove]

The leavers seem to be doing no better!

[Trev]

The border might have been discussed prior to the vote, but no workable solution was ever proposed