Boating With Jesus

[stearl]

What the fuck is 'entartete kunst'

Degenerate art.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art

[Yung Led Zeppelin]

Saw a statement from the organisers clarifying further. Very reasonable and pretty such exactly what I understood from their initial post. But let the speculation and thought experiments continue sure.

"Since there have been some questions regarding this post of ours, I wanted to take the time to clarify a few things.
We are talking explicitly NSBM bands here, and yes I know Burzum falls outside that genre but to this day, the man has been an unapologetic Nazi and that's why he is included.
It's not the case that we will directly proceed to toss people out; I want to start dialogues and give people the chance to put on an appropriate (non-NSBM) garment.
Obviously we're aware that people aren't always fully up-to-date on what their favourite bands have been getting up to, and the last thing we want to do is demonise people for their merch choices or make them feel as if they're Nazis unjustifiably. So no, we won't be barring the door to people or tossing them out because they're wearing a shirt of some obscure band that secretly keeps some questionable connections.
We just wanted to grasp this opportunity to raise awareness about these themes, while at the same time ensuring that the festival offers a safe and fantastic experience to everyone.
What -will- immediately get you thrown out? Blatant Nazi stuff: Totenkopf, swastikas, sunwheels, 88, Sieg Heil, and we might just call the police in such instances too, but that is only right and proper."

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

As much as I think it would've been reasonable to remind ticket holders that there are laws around displaying Nazi symbolism in the Netherlands, and potentially expanding that for people to say "So please also don't wear band shirts with any such symbolism on them" if they believed that was going to be a risk, I personally don't see it as a reasonable benefit/harm assessment to publish a list of bands who are banned, especially if that's going to stretch to material that's not offensive in itself but is made by someone with distasteful views. Probably a decent sized risk someone will be wearing something HP Lovecraft inspired, and his personal views, similarly absent from his art, were just as distasteful. So ultimately it feels to me that this is going to have very little tangible benefit but may well add yet another drop to the ocean of polarization to the point of dialogue being impossible. That's the sense I get off it anyway.

[astfgyl]

I suppose it's fair enough about Nazi symbolism but banning it won't change anyone's mind, will it?

[John Kimble]

Saw a statement from the organisers clarifying further. Very reasonable and pretty such exactly what I understood from their initial post. But let the speculation and thought experiments continue sure.

"Since there have been some questions regarding this post of ours, I wanted to take the time to clarify a few things.
We are talking explicitly NSBM bands here, and yes I know Burzum falls outside that genre but to this day, the man has been an unapologetic Nazi and that's why he is included.
It's not the case that we will directly proceed to toss people out; I want to start dialogues and give people the chance to put on an appropriate (non-NSBM) garment.
Obviously we're aware that people aren't always fully up-to-date on what their favourite bands have been getting up to, and the last thing we want to do is demonise people for their merch choices or make them feel as if they're Nazis unjustifiably. So no, we won't be barring the door to people or tossing them out because they're wearing a shirt of some obscure band that secretly keeps some questionable connections.
We just wanted to grasp this opportunity to raise awareness about these themes, while at the same time ensuring that the festival offers a safe and fantastic experience to everyone.
What -will- immediately get you thrown out? Blatant Nazi stuff: Totenkopf, swastikas, sunwheels, 88, Sieg Heil, and we might just call the police in such instances too, but that is only right and proper."

The fact that they had to explain further seems to suggest that the original statement was not exactly self evident. As I said, no issue with a festival wanting an outright ban on Nazi symbolism. I can't imagine any festival/event would want the bad publicity or an outright boycott, especially in this climate. But the shirts thing is bollocks. I have no time for Varg's politics, the lad is a loon, but I'll gladly listen to his music. Am I being a hypocrite? Maybe. And that patronizing line about people not being "fully up-to-date on what their favourite bands have been getting up to"...fuck off would ya. I know full well. Reminds me of the other day when I caught my kids watching Space Jam. I fucked a mug at the telly, smashing the screen, and proceeded to lecture my 10 year old about the past crimes of R Kelly.

[astfgyl]

I generally don't know anything about any bands politics, and on purpose so it doesn't put me off so I'd imagine myself and many like me could be wearing something offensive unawares.

And like fuck ya as well if my shirt upsets you. Their clarifying statement doesn't make me feel it's less retarded at all tbh

[Mithrandir]

Saw a statement from the organisers clarifying further. Very reasonable and pretty such exactly what I understood from their initial post. But let the speculation and thought experiments continue sure.

"Since there have been some questions regarding this post of ours, I wanted to take the time to clarify a few things.
We are talking explicitly NSBM bands here, and yes I know Burzum falls outside that genre but to this day, the man has been an unapologetic Nazi and that's why he is included.
It's not the case that we will directly proceed to toss people out; I want to start dialogues and give people the chance to put on an appropriate (non-NSBM) garment.
Obviously we're aware that people aren't always fully up-to-date on what their favourite bands have been getting up to, and the last thing we want to do is demonise people for their merch choices or make them feel as if they're Nazis unjustifiably. So no, we won't be barring the door to people or tossing them out because they're wearing a shirt of some obscure band that secretly keeps some questionable connections.
We just wanted to grasp this opportunity to raise awareness about these themes, while at the same time ensuring that the festival offers a safe and fantastic experience to everyone.
What -will- immediately get you thrown out? Blatant Nazi stuff: Totenkopf, swastikas, sunwheels, 88, Sieg Heil, and we might just call the police in such instances too, but that is only right and proper."

I don't think it was all that clear when the organiser was making comments like this initially:



I feel like they're going back on their original stance a little as they've received more backlash than expected. I understand they think they're doing a good thing and there's good intentions behind it but as Astfgyl said, the whole thing is still retarded.

[Eoin McLove]

Complete and utter bullshit.

[John Kimble]

Putting a sticker over a Burzum patch...how utterly retarded is that. That lad can get fucked.

[Mooncat]

Looks a pretty clear case of them meaning to deny entry to people initially, seeing the backlash over it, and backtracking saying they never meant it that way all along. Total nonsense.

[spiritcrusher]

Ah lads. For fuck sake. Do ye truly believe this is bullshit?
Just because someone makes an initially ham-fisted attempt at trying to steer people away from advertising for the utter dross of society like Varg and his ilk, doesn't really mean they shouldn't try.
The guy is awful. A truly fucking awful person.
Listen to his music. Enjoy it. Send him some holiday pics. I enjoy Arghoslent, but I'll never give those cunts a cent or advertise for them on a shirt.

If you decide to wear and advertise stuff by someone with an ideology, then others may not like. And some may even decide they don't want you at their party.

So you may cry bullshit and you may feel slighted against. So go and do what we all did when someone did something we didn't like.
Go and cry into your pillow. And then do nothing.

[John Kimble]

Yes, I do believe it's bullshit.

How exactly do you enjoy Arghoslent? Have you purchased some of their music? If not, have you listened to them on YouTube? Then, directly or indirectly, you've endorsed them to some extent.
I rarely wear band merch these days but on the odd occasion that I do, it's not with the intent of 'advertising' anyone. It's just a band and a T-shirt that I happen to like. If you want to get all woke and airy-fairy about it, then surely a metal festival should be a "safe space" (ugh, that phrase) to do so without being judged.
I wouldn't be a huge fan of Cannibal Corpse these days, in fact I'd consider them to be a bit of a harmless novelty act. Show their lyrics to someone who's been the victim of a sexual assault and I wonder would they consider them harmless? Probably not. As I mentioned previously, if you were to do a deep dive into the backgrounds of any of your favourite bands, you probably wouldn't have to go too far to unearth something dodgy.
It's also about expectations. I probably wouldn't go to Primavera or even Roadburn wearing a Burzum tee as I'd imagine it'd get some kind of adverse reaction. I wouldn't expect the same reaction at a festival with 1349 and Rotting Christ on the bill.
 
So yeah, vetting of band t-shirts at a metal festival sets a ropey precedent.

[Eoin McLove]

Wearing a Satanic Warmaster t-shirt isn't an act of violence. It's just part of being a fan of the band. Who fucking cares about anyone else's political opinion when you're at a festival? That's not what anyone goes there for, but promoting this kind of nonsense is merely a way of the promoters advertising their own political stance. But who fucking cares??? Stick to your job which is putting on bands and stop policing people for nothing. If someone decides to throw out Roman salutes and gets aggressive with people that's an entirely different story, but isn't that where security come in to play? Making people put tape over their patches and t-shirts is a form of intimidation and bullying- the exact problem they are claiming to be fighting against. Muppets.

[spiritcrusher]

Yes, I do believe it's bullshit.

How exactly do you enjoy Arghoslent? Have you purchased some of their music? If not, have you listened to them on YouTube? Then, directly or indirectly, you've endorsed them to some extent.

I pirate their albums. But yeah,  I would accept that point otherwise.

I rarely wear band merch these days but on the odd occasion that I do, it's not with the intent of 'advertising' anyone. It's just a band and a T-shirt that I happen to like. If you want to get all woke and airy-fairy about it, then surely a metal festival should be a "safe space" (ugh, that phrase) to do so without being judged.
I wouldn't be a huge fan of Cannibal Corpse these days, in fact I'd consider them to be a bit of a harmless novelty act. Show their lyrics to someone who's been the victim of a sexual assault and I wonder would they consider them harmless? Probably not.

I assume most of us are sufficiently capable of telling the difference between Cannibal Corpse's cartoon violence apart from a band with genuine belief. I'm sure some people may find an issue with them, which is fine, but I'm happy enough they're not actually out there jizzing blood and knifing clunges until proven otherwise.
Promoting race theories and nazi ideologies though is something that has been an issue with a few of those bands and I don't believe most of it was done with tongues in cheeks.

As I mentioned previously, if you were to do a deep dive into the backgrounds of any of your favourite bands, you probably wouldn't have to go too far to unearth something dodgy.

I absolutely agree. And if I wear something that has dodgy connections then that's my problem and I'm fair game to be challenged on it by someone who may have more knowledge on it than I do.

Now, I want to point out that I'm not trying to say these bands or shirts should be banned or burned or whatever. But people can decide whether or not they want them at their private event which you can choose to attend or not.

It's just part of being a fan of the band. Who fucking cares about anyone else's political opinion when you're at a festival? That's not what anyone goes there for, but promoting this kind of nonsense is merely a way of the promoters advertising their own political stance. But who fucking cares??? Stick to your job which is putting on bands and stop policing people for nothing.

Yeah but it's not really their actual job is it? They're not delivering a public service funded with public money. The event can be as political or non-political as the organiser sees fit. But it absolutely should have been clearer from the start that they don't want certain bands advertised by people.
And I would argue that depending on the content of lyrics, the imagery a band uses or topics discussed in interviews, a lot bands are very much open to political and social discussions. And by extent the gigs and events they play are open to criticism.

[Eoin McLove]

Fair enough. I am completely against this carry on, though. I listen to all kinds of bands and I'll decide for myself which t-shirts are ok for me to wear. I'm 42 years old, I don't need some virtue signaling 18 year old to wag its finger at me or to re-educate me. I struggle to think of anything more detestable. And putting myself in their shoes makes it even harder to understand- imagine being so much of a self-satisfied, sanctimonious cunt that you would be happy to make a stranger cover up their t-shirt. It's beyond laughable. It's disgusting. Pretending that wearing an Absurd t-shirt is an act of violence makes such arguments even more pathetic. I hate it.