Metal Warfare - Irish Metal Forum

Put up a poll ages ago out of boredom and same applies here. I know there could have been dozens of options I could have put up but just picked the bands I think people would be most likely to pick.

Metallica. After Guns N' Roses they were my first total obsession band and I love how every album up until The Black Album has its own unique character.  I was too young and clueless to understand the concept of subgenres so it seemed perfectly natural to me that every album would sound completely different to the one before it. I didn't realise they had so radically changed (sold out some will say) between Justice and The Black Album and I fell instantly in love with it. I remember seeing the video for Enter Sandman on Top of the Pops in my grandparents' house and literally running up and down the hall with excitement that they had a new album out  :laugh:

Listening to that stuff now with age and experience and a more analytical ear it is clear why they became the biggest metal band in the world. Such incredible talent.

Yeah I went for Metallica too, in the 80's they were just on another level musically to be honest.

I know some people have the Metallica vs Megadeth argument but even as a Megadeth fan, they were never as consistent, they always had the dodgy cover songs and questionable production on some of the 80's stuff too.

Maybe one for the Controversial Opinions thread but Bonded by Blood is the only notable album Exodus did.

Metallica, purely for the one-two of Ride The Lightning and Master Of Puppets. My favourite thrash albums are Nuclear Assault's Game over and Rust In Peace, but the first four Metallica albums are a run that no other thrash band did as well IMO.

Bonded By Blood is probably the only Exodus album I can't listen to, because of the terrible, terrible vocals.

Slayer for me every day of the week. There is no doubt that Metallica were more talented in a music sense but they only had 4 thrash albums and I'm not a fan of the second or fourth of those (sacrilege to some I know). While Slayer's recorded output dipped post Divine Intervention they still had a handful of good thrash songs on those subsequent albums, apart from Repentless which was pure shit. For what it's worth I would probably put Kreator as my second choice- Pleasure to Kill is just a fucking savage album .

As far as pure originality goes Voivod is up there for me too.

Metallica here too, mostly for the run from RTL to AJFA, which were so formative for me and they're all near flawless albums. Although these days I find if I want to listen to them I go with a mix of my favourites from Load/Reload

Testament have probably been most consistent, I don't think there's any real shitters in their catalogue like St Anger or Risk

Vektor would have to be up there too, even if they aren't strictly all out thrash

Out of the bands listed there I'd personally say that Sodom have the most consistently deadly back catalogue. When other bands were slowing or polishing their sound they were releasing savagery like Tapping The Vein.

Megadeth are probably my most listened to band of all time though. Rust In Peace still sounds fresh to this day despite the countless times I've listened to it. I feel sorry for younger folk who will probably only listen to the godawful remaster which completely castrates the original recording though.

Metallica up until the Black album are the just the greatest metal band ever no question. However as we are talking from a pure thrash point of view it has to be Slayer. Slayers first couple of outputs - arguably peaking at RIB - in terms of thrash metal are the greatest thrash metal albums of all time.

To these ears the output from Slayer's first five albums exceeds that of Metallica's first five. What happened Metallica thereafter dropped them down the pecking order somewhat. In a word Slayer. All day long.

Metallica have better individual songs, but to  me Slayer are the better  band overall. Also,  while i've enjoyed seeing Metallica live, Slayer have always been better to me. The first time I saw Hanneman and King playing together was a great experience. I never quite had the same feeling watching Metallica live.

Went with Slayer myself, much as I love all the.other bands ,Slayer had that innate darkness and spite to their stuff that just tips my nod towards  them over Metallica and Megadeth

Metallica for me.

Wouldn't really know what way to vote on this. Metallica only have one true thrash album and that's Kill 'Em All; Megadeth stayed more thrash a bit longer, with elements still dominant in Peace Sells and So Far, So Good. So, yeah, for pure thrash value maybe Slayer, maybe Kreator. I guess, all things considered, I love thrash as an influence more than as an unadulterated style, similar to punk for me in that way. All that said, Kill Em All would be my favourite thrash album, but still seems wrong to vote for Metallica in this poll   :-\ :abbath:

Testament - nearly their entire back catalogue from 80's through to the 90s/00s is top notch material - the auld line of "The Big 4 should be Metallica Megadeth Slayer and Testament" applies IMO. They have tapered off somewhat in later years, but they've still given out some of the best stuff with The Legacy, The New Order, Practice What You Preach, Low, The Gathering, Demonic etc. Great band.

We'll find strong points with every band on the list,but im judging this when bands were at their peak!,Metallica shading it ahead of Slayer.

Did Scott Ian just join the board?

 :laugh: There's so many options there I could go for depending on my mood, but with all the hate here for Anthrax it had to be done  :)

Could have gone for Kreator, could have gone for Seps, but sure feck it, no big deal either way, I don't think a popularity vote will change anyone's opinion.

Ah ye scamp

Went with Slayer, they're output up to Seasons was flawless.  Metallica were my favourite band growing up mostly due to Puppets and Ride.  But Hell Awaits and RIB are supreme thrash.

Slayer for me - they're far more consistent (everything from the debut to Divine Intervention is a classic - bar Hell Awaits, hate that record with a passion).

The only two Metallica records I return to these days are MoP and AJfA. The first two bore me to tears.

As for the other bands - Megadeth only have two albums worth a mention, Anthrax are (well, ye know), I only really like Kreator's post-2000 output (it's good, generic trash, almost the McDonald's of trash), I never thought of Seps as a trash band, Alex Scholnik is one of my favourite guitarists (the solo in First Strike is Deadly... fucking hell), but he's wedded to another generic band, Exodus are mostly a joke (Paul Baloff's "singing" can go fuck itself), and I've never listened to enough Sodom to really know (although Agent Orange is a frequent spin, so maybe I should check out more of their stuff).

Anyways, the best trash album is Dark Angel's Time Does Not Heal, followed by Voivod's Dimension Hatross :abbath:

If I was to turn things around and ask, of the bands listed, which is the worst, would the general consensus be Anthrax?

It would surely be one of the ones with no votes, no?

Quote from: Juggz on August 17, 2020, 02:25:14 PM
It would surely be one of the ones with no votes, no?

Not necessarily - sodom and exodus are the only 2 with no votes and to these ears they are both far superior to anthrax,who for me are the worst band on the list.

Anthrax are absolutely cuntish in terms of how bad they are. Exodus aren't too far behind, but the do have their own Stench of Redemption in the form of Tempo of the Damned.

Don't go all Trumpian like the Fox News lads in off topic. It's official - Sodom and Exodus are the shite here. The forum has spoken.

Sodom are desperately unremarkable, let's be honest.

In The Sign Of Evil, Persecution Mania, Code Red, Epitome Of Torture - all 5/5 releases.

I enjoy Spreading the Disease and Among the Living, Anthrax weren't on the level of the other three of the Big 4 but they at least had their own style/personality which is more than a lot of thrash bands that came out.

I'm a fan of Thrash but I've never been a listener that needs an encyclopedic knowledge on every obscure album that came out, especially in a genre that can sometimes be very derivative, so I'd stick to the Big 4, Voivod, Sepultura etc, the more unique bands imo.

The likes of Testament, Overkill, Exodus were good but would be too samey for me to stick on nowadays.

The Anthrax hate is way overblown let's be real.

Testament, and even though they aren't there, Death Angel are two of the most overrated bands in thrash though. Aggressive mediocrity is even too generous

More interesting would be 'who are the best after Metallica'. I think Metallica will always win otherwise

Quote from: TheFlyingGiraffe on August 17, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
The Anthrax hate is way overblown let's be real.

Testament, and even though they aren't there, Death Angel are two of the most overrated bands in thrash though. Aggressive mediocrity is even too generous

Death Angel got interesting once they stopped playing thrash. Act III is one of the finest albums to ever come out of the Bay Area.

Quote from: Pedrito on August 17, 2020, 04:04:19 PM
More interesting would be 'who are the best after Metallica'. I think Metallica will always win otherwise

Evidently not on the votes so far though?

Megadeth by a distance. Testament the most consistent and currently their latest releases are the closest thing to trash compared to others.

Exodus live > any other band on that poll.

Quote from: Giggles on August 17, 2020, 05:22:32 PM
Exodus live > any other band on that poll.

I really like Exodus and have seen them live 4 times but the best band as a spectacle on the Bay Area package tour that was on in the National Stadium was Death Angel.

Never got Sodom,had a few albums years back but never grabbed me.

Im a huge fan of the mid/late 90s Testament stuff,chunky and heavy.

Quote from: TheFlyingGiraffe on August 17, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
The Anthrax hate is way overblown let's be real

How's it overblown? I utterly detest them (bar a handful of songs). I'd honestly prefer to listen to some shite K-Pop than the scutter that Anthrax have produced.

More importantly, at this stage, I'd prefer to listen to Anthrax than read another post about how bad they are #meta

Destruction a contender for anyone? Certainly dyed in the wool thrash through and through!

Hashtag I did allude to that in my original post about how I felt about them :laugh:

Destruction? Just another b-tier (it we're being generous) generic AF thrash band.

Quote from: Ducky on August 17, 2020, 08:19:00 PM
Destruction? Just another b-tier (it we're being generous) generic AF thrash band.

I don't think you can be called "generic" if you're the first  ;)

Anthrax had some good stuff. Testament would interest me more than any of the rest and have for a while. 

Havent heard the latest Testament,but Anthrax recent output is far more interesting compared to a lot of the others imo.

Worship Music is a fantastic album (For All Kings wasn't), the best thing any of the 'big 4' have put out for a long time, though they're not really a thrash band anymore.

The last thrash album that really impressed me was Overkill's White Devil Armoury, and that was a few albums ago from them.

Slayer got my vote, at their peak they had an attitude and atmosphere that keeps me listening.

Regarding Sodom, I'm only really familiar with their M-16 album which has 4 amazing songs back to back:

M-16
Lead Injection
Cannon Fodder
Marines

Followed by the album finale of a Surfing Bird cover  :laugh: :abbath:

Other great songs on the album too, but that run from track 7 to track 10 is absolute banger territory. Especially the drums on Lead Injection.

Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on August 17, 2020, 08:32:15 PM

Quote from: Ducky on August 17, 2020, 08:19:00 PM
Destruction? Just another b-tier (it we're being generous) generic AF thrash band.

I don't think you can be called "generic" if you're the first  ;)

Infernal Overkill is a beast. No interest after that.

Slayer are the obvious choice for me.

I think this pole could be very much in 2 halves, 80's and modern. Like many I started off with Metallica, and heard Sepultura before the rest of the Big 4.
I haven't enjoyed main 4 in years and bands who haven't been part of it have proved to be have better consistency and put out better Thrash Metal albums,
Metallica and Anthrax have been shite for decades, Megadeth hit and miss and Slayer's last few didn't do much for me. I think Testament, Sodom and Kreator had fared better.


80's - Metallica
Post 00's - Kreator

There hasn't been a thrash album worth a pint of cold piss since the very early 90's. By 1990, all the good thrash bands of the 80's had moved on to something else, not playing the thrash beat anymore. What has come since, especially those trying to be thrash after a long break playing hard rock and collecting money, has been utterly lamentable.

AJFA, for example, is not a thrash album. They're not thrash songs. RIP, not thrash. Great albums, but not thrash albums. Thrash was a spent force by the early 90's and should have stayed dead. It was glorious at the time and said everything it had to say and disappeared. What Testament are doing these days isn't thrash at all. Slayer and Kreator, arguably yes but no-one will miss anything they put out in the last 25 years. Vektor have a big thrash influence but I wouldn't call them a thrash band at all, they're operating through a much wider scope.

Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on August 17, 2020, 08:32:15 PM

Quote from: Ducky on August 17, 2020, 08:19:00 PM
Destruction? Just another b-tier (it we're being generous) generic AF thrash band.

I don't think you can be called "generic" if you're the first  ;)

Were they the first? This I did not know...

They're still remarkably pants, not a patch on a lot of other bands... although better than Anthrax at least  ;)

Destruction - Sentence of Death was '84.

Quote from: Juggz on August 18, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
There hasn't been a thrash album worth a pint of cold piss since the very early 90's. By 1990, all the good thrash bands of the 80's had moved on to something else, not playing the thrash beat anymore. What has come since, especially those trying to be thrash after a long break playing hard rock and collecting money, has been utterly lamentable.

AJFA, for example, is not a thrash album. They're not thrash songs. RIP, not thrash. Great albums, but not thrash albums. Thrash was a spent force by the early 90's and should have stayed dead. It was glorious at the time and said everything it had to say and disappeared. What Testament are doing these days isn't thrash at all. Slayer and Kreator, arguably yes but no-one will miss anything they put out in the last 25 years. Vektor have a big thrash influence but I wouldn't call them a thrash band at all, they're operating through a much wider scope.

This sums it up very well. Forbidden and Holy Terror should be in the list too. Dark Angel also.

Can't believe that Uncle Slam didn't make it on the poll option list. Shameful altogether...  :abbath:

https://youtu.be/LYXvnCJQUB4

Quote from: Juggz on August 18, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
There hasn't been a thrash album worth a pint of cold piss since the very early 90's. By 1990, all the good thrash bands of the 80's had moved on to something else, not playing the thrash beat anymore. What has come since, especially those trying to be thrash after a long break playing hard rock and collecting money, has been utterly lamentable.

Can't agree with that to be honest - plenty of good thrash albums post early 1990s- the first haunted album, divine intervention, Violent Revolution , shovel headed kill machine just off the top of my head. Granted they all had a different slant on pure 1980s thrash but they are thrash albums all the same.

Pessimist (the German band) are putting out consistently good thrash albums, and even some of the established/older band put out quality thrash sporadically, so there's plenty to be heard.

Also: AJFA and Rust In Peace not thrash? How does that work? Certainly thrash, even if the last thrash album either band released.

Seems thrash is viewed a lot more rigidly than some other genres like black or death metal, and isn't given as much leeway to expand the core sound

Like I would absolutely call Vektor a thrash band, even if they have elements of other stuff. Death changed pretty much every album but they were always a death metal band

Quote from: Juggz on August 18, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
There hasn't been a thrash album worth a pint of cold piss since the very early 90's. By 1990, all the good thrash bands of the 80's had moved on to something else, not playing the thrash beat anymore. What has come since, especially those trying to be thrash after a long break playing hard rock and collecting money, has been utterly lamentable.

Hard fuckin disagree on that one man.

Even Sodom had some class output in the late 90s early 00s with Code Red, MI-6, Sodom.

Bands out here like Deathhammer, Antichrist, Nekromantheon, Condor, Division Speed, Vulture, the new Butcher album kicking shit. All these are definitely carrying the torch of the 80s classics. Fuck even Power Trip aren't the worst shit in the world.

If you're talking about the big four and all that yeah, could probably get behind it but other than that, nah fuck that.

Quote

AJFA, for example, is not a thrash album. They're not thrash songs. RIP, not thrash. Great albums, but not thrash albums. Thrash was a spent force by the early 90's and should have stayed dead. It was glorious at the time and said everything it had to say and disappeared. What Testament are doing these days isn't thrash at all. Slayer and Kreator, arguably yes but no-one will miss anything they put out in the last 25 years. Vektor have a big thrash influence but I wouldn't call them a thrash band at all, they're operating through a much wider scope.

Sure Vektor are just playing Voivod 20 years later. Neither were never my cuppa but sure one of them is just lifting shit from the other. They're progressive as fuck but sure so were Voivod after the first 2...

Evile have released some derivative but amazing thrash. Five Serpent's Teeth could've been released between MoP and ...AJfA and it'd be hailed as a classic thrash record.

For me, proper thrash needs a bit of heaviness behind it. Early Destruction and Sodom is some of the best metal ever written, but it's but not 'heavy' I'm the traditional sense. I look at that style of metal more like early black metal really.

If you're talking straightforward meathead thrash metal with very little death metal or heavy metal  influences -

Beneath The Remains
Arise
Pleasure To Kill
Darkness Descends
Reign In Blood
Bonded By Blood

Cannot be topped.

5 greatest thrash albums for me in no order are -
Pleasure to Kill
Rust in Peace
Beneath the Remains
Reign in Blood
Speak English or Die.

As mentioned elsewhere on the forum, if Speak English or Die had been an Anthrax album they probably wouldn't be as despised by people as they are. For what it's worth I do think Anthrax have some very good songs but they are miles behind the the other big 3 in terms of quality.

Found Acid Reign 'The Fear' in the collection and put it on for 'ole times sakes. Stands up, good riffs. Haven't heard the new one.

Looking back on Metallica, I was one of those kids who hated the black album when it was released. Still don't like it much, but now I can appreciate the need to expand your sound as an artist etc.

Quote from: Juggz on August 18, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
There hasn't been a thrash album worth a pint of cold piss since the very early 90's...

...AJFA, for example, is not a thrash album. They're not thrash songs. RIP, not thrash. Great albums, but not thrash albums.

What is your definition of  "thrash album", or a "thrash song"?

Thrash is high tempo metal notable for the fast-paced snare and a drum pattern derived from hardcore punk.

Examples...

https://youtu.be/9MsiHRPiXCI?t=107
https://youtu.be/TnRZhLRv6eM?t=30
https://youtu.be/xeK1E1HaMdY?t=52
https://youtu.be/iSHsNbhQkw0?t=15
https://youtu.be/2GNt4UGa4tg?t=7
https://youtu.be/c0VkXJjH-uA?t=18
https://youtu.be/AeififDPVCw?t=3
https://youtu.be/YmWEP6pPzgg?t=30
https://youtu.be/LtaH2yllusU?t=12
https://youtu.be/Hf__tRy0g10?t=74
https://youtu.be/T5SKqEE2U-g?t=4
https://youtu.be/1v6LC6ZsRjo?t=74
https://youtu.be/ASFfYKqJWHA?t=27

Or, at least, that's what it was the first time around. Like I said, by the end of the 80's most of the original thrash bands had moved on to something else (AJFA and RIP being prime examples) but lazy journalists, struggling to categorise the music being played by bands who used to play thrash, continued to call it thrash when, really, it had morphed into something else.

Edit -> keep an eye on this thread because the next couple of years coming up were fucking thrash central out my way  :laugh:

https://forum.metalwarfare.com/index.php?topic=1308.150

Quote from: Trev on August 18, 2020, 05:45:10 PM
Seems thrash is viewed a lot more rigidly than some other genres like black or death metal, and isn't given as much leeway to expand the core sound

Like I would absolutely call Vektor a thrash band, even if they have elements of other stuff. Death changed pretty much every album but they were always a death metal band

Its definitely not, there was an interview with a guy out of gama bomb saying any retro trash tends to get a lot of hate.

I do get the thing where it feels like the genre was mastered and new trash bands are just trying to recreate the 80s as opposed to do anything current

A lot of people said Death weren't a proper death metal band though. I remember Symbolic getting some flack for not being "heavy enough". Same thing with Atheist. And Pestilence when they brought out Spheres. And Carcass with Heartwork. Plenty of auld lads still whinge about At The Gates going "Jugga" on Slaughter Of The Soul. There's always purists/ elitists complaining when bands break the genre rules. It's certainly not something that's exclusive to thrash.

The Black Album, grunge and Burn My Eys those three things are what caused thrash to have an identity crisis that it never recovered from.

Quote from: Juggz on August 19, 2020, 05:55:41 PM
Thrash is high tempo metal notable for the fast-paced snare and a drum pattern derived from hardcore punk.

Examples...

https://youtu.be/9MsiHRPiXCI?t=107
https://youtu.be/TnRZhLRv6eM?t=30
https://youtu.be/xeK1E1HaMdY?t=52
https://youtu.be/iSHsNbhQkw0?t=15
https://youtu.be/2GNt4UGa4tg?t=7
https://youtu.be/c0VkXJjH-uA?t=18
https://youtu.be/AeififDPVCw?t=3
https://youtu.be/YmWEP6pPzgg?t=30
https://youtu.be/LtaH2yllusU?t=12
https://youtu.be/Hf__tRy0g10?t=74
https://youtu.be/T5SKqEE2U-g?t=4
https://youtu.be/1v6LC6ZsRjo?t=74
https://youtu.be/ASFfYKqJWHA?t=27

Or, at least, that's what it was the first time around. Like I said, by the end of the 80's most of the original thrash bands had moved on to something else (AJFA and RIP being prime examples) but lazy journalists, struggling to categorise the music being played by bands who used to play thrash, continued to call it thrash when, really, it had morphed into something else.

Edit -> keep an eye on this thread because the next couple of years coming up were fucking thrash central out my way  :laugh:

https://forum.metalwarfare.com/index.php?topic=1308.150

That's a very narrow box to put in though. By that standard about 80% of what's called thrash isn't thrash, including other songs on those albums.

Is Peace Sells thrash? Or The New Order? Or South of Heaven?

Peace Sells, of course not, just listen to it  :) Megadeth always called themselves Speed Metal (anyone remember Speed Metal?  :laugh: ), they didn't consider themselves a Thrash band because they didn't play Thrash. I actually listened to their first four albums over the weekend with this very thing at the back of my mind. Maybe Rattlehead is close but... just listen to their music and tell me what does it have in common with, let's say, the music on Reign in Blood for example. I think Gar was a lot of the reason they sounded so different, an immensely skilled and accomplished player but they also had a lot more mid-tempo material than those they have been lumped in with. A more Metal-grounded drummer might have thrashed it up but Gar was from different stock and pure fucking class. They were quite clear about it, though, they used to have a line they put on t-shirts and posters, "The world's state of the art speed metal band". I used to have an A0 poster of theirs on my bedroom wall as a kid which even had that line. Of course, in hindsight it's easier to lump the successful bands together but just listen to the music and it's fucking obvious. Thrash is a style of music, it's not all the music played by a nominated cluster of bands. The word itself describes the frenzied nature of the music, that's where it came from. Say it loud and proud... Thrash!

I understand that it doesn't fit the narrative you have grown up with and you're upset but, trust me, I've told you what Thrash Metal actually is. Listen to the links... that is Thrash. When the term was coined in the early-mid 80's, that's what it meant. If someone was called Thrash, you knew what you were going to get, fucking wild aggression and high tempos. Yes, it was a narrow categorisation and that's why it fucking died a rapid death. It doesn't mean bands who were called Thrash played Thrash every second of every song of every album (maybe some of the shit ones  ;) ) but it meant the Thrash sound would feature heavily in their work. By the end of the 80's, most of them had slowed down and distanced themselves from Thrash, both musically and verbally in the press. Those albums are now lumped together as Thrash by lazy journalists, but they're not Thrash. Thrash is a style of music, it is not all the outputs of a loose collection of bands, after all.

It was a spent force long before the black album, long before grunge and you're really, massively, hugely overstating the importance of Burn My Eyes  :laugh: 

It's interesting you bring up South of Heaven, it's a great example of a band evolving and moving on with class. Silent Scream, Ghosts of War and Cleanse the Soul are the only ones you could call Thrash, the ones which, you'd argue, could fit seamlessly onto RIB or Hell Awaits, for example. Thrash is high tempo, most of SOH is not. Again, it's a word which describes a style of music and, when you have two songs which are very different from each other, if one is then the other cannot be, if the term is to have any meaning at all, no?

Finally, have a listen and read the lyrics to Thrash Under Pressure by Exodus, the last track on 1990's Impact is Imminent album. They sum up the situation of the time quite nicely, the dying spasms of real Thrash in as meat-and-potatoes a Thrash song as it's possible to do  :laugh:

At the end of it all, it's up to you to decide what you think Thrash is. Thrash either describes a style of music (that's where the term came from) or it's a retrospectively-applied term for all musically disparate bands from the mid-80's who were heavier than Judas Priest before Death Metal came along, with thanks to the tight-trousered, heavily-tattooed, baseball cap wearing kids at Metal Hammer 

Ya to me personally bands like megadeth, annihilator, nuclear assault and overkill were speed metal because the drums weren't 180 bpm(not that I've heard much of the latter two so I'm open to correction) . Proper thrash to me is slayer, sepultura and in particular bands like Sadus. Not saying I'm right but that's the way I looked at it.

The main takeaway for me here is that I know fuck all about Thrash. So many bands mentioned here that I don't know a note of.

Edit: going through a few of the examples Juggz has up there and wondering how important is the vocal style in defining what is Thrash or not?

Quote from: Juggz on August 25, 2020, 08:53:37 AM
Peace Sells, of course not, just listen to it  :) Megadeth always called themselves Speed Metal (anyone remember Speed Metal?  :laugh: ), they didn't consider themselves a Thrash band because they didn't play Thrash. I actually listened to their first four albums over the weekend with this very thing at the back of my mind. Maybe Rattlehead is close but... just listen to their music and tell me what does it have in common with, let's say, the music on Reign in Blood for example. I think Gar was a lot of the reason they sounded so different, an immensely skilled and accomplished player but they also had a lot more mid-tempo material than those they have been lumped in with. A more Metal-grounded drummer might have thrashed it up but Gar was from different stock and pure fucking class. They were quite clear about it, though, they used to have a line they put on t-shirts and posters, "The world's state of the art speed metal band". I used to have an A0 poster of theirs on my bedroom wall as a kid which even had that line. Of course, in hindsight it's easier to lump the successful bands together but just listen to the music and it's fucking obvious. Thrash is a style of music, it's not all the music played by a nominated cluster of bands. The word itself describes the frenzied nature of the music, that's where it came from. Say it loud and proud... Thrash!

I understand that it doesn't fit the narrative you have grown up with and you're upset but, trust me, I've told you what Thrash Metal actually is. Listen to the links... that is Thrash. When the term was coined in the early-mid 80's, that's what it meant. If someone was called Thrash, you knew what you were going to get, fucking wild aggression and high tempos. Yes, it was a narrow categorisation and that's why it fucking died a rapid death. It doesn't mean bands who were called Thrash played Thrash every second of every song of every album (maybe some of the shit ones  ;) ) but it meant the Thrash sound would feature heavily in their work. By the end of the 80's, most of them had slowed down and distanced themselves from Thrash, both musically and verbally in the press. Those albums are now lumped together as Thrash by lazy journalists, but they're not Thrash. Thrash is a style of music, it is not all the outputs of a loose collection of bands, after all.

It was a spent force long before the black album, long before grunge and you're really, massively, hugely overstating the importance of Burn My Eyes  :laugh: 


At the end of it all, it's up to you to decide what you think Thrash is. Thrash either describes a style of music (that's where the term came from) or it's a retrospectively-applied term for all musically disparate bands from the mid-80's who were heavier than Judas Priest before Death Metal came along, with thanks to the tight-trousered, heavily-tattooed, baseball cap wearing kids at Metal Hammer

You yourself referred to Megadeth as being an "original thrash band" and gave the example of them as being a band that moved on from thrash with RIP. That's why I asked specifically about Peace Sells. So now even they don't make the cut. That's what I mean about your definition being very rigid and specific.
I know about Mustaine referring to them as a speed metal band. When I was discovering metal in the early 90s, thrash and speed were interchangeable terms. Speed metal means something else now though: Mostly European lads playing Iron Maiden riffs at warp speed with falsetto vocals.

My point about Burn My Eyes is that because it was hugely successful while updating the thrash formula, bands like Forbidden, Testament, Slayer, Sacred Reich etc. suddenly started down tuning and getting groovy, seemingly just to stay relevant.

Look a lot of this arguably comes down to semantics, what you're calling thrash, I would argue leans more into crossover territory. There's just so much golden era "thrash" stuff  that doesn't fit into that bracket though.

I take your points about lazy journalism and retrospectively applying the term to anything with teeth in the 80s, Metal Church and Motorhead being two examples but I think you're just being a bit too heavy handed with the yardstick.

There is an element of the old school thrash production that hasn't been replicated by any modern thrash outputs. This is a huge factor. For example reaper by Bathory is definitely a thrash song. The production would be considered rubbish nowadays whereas to us old school thrash fans it adds an element of charm.

I always thought that the thrash movement was borne out of the tediousness of hair metal in a similar fashion to the punk movement in the 70s.

Isn't 'speed metal' just what the yanks called thrash? That's how I always took it anyway. Stupid, stupid, meaningless phrase regardless, along with 'hair metal' (which isn't a thing).

Thrash is as broad a genre term as death metal has become over the years, with plenty of variation under the umbrella. Writing off so many indisputable thrash classics because they don't fit one's personal definition is a bit silly and dismissive.

Quote from: Anton Arcane on August 25, 2020, 02:34:44 PM
You yourself referred to Megadeth as being an "original thrash band" and gave the example of them as being a band that moved on from thrash with RIP. That's why I asked specifically about Peace Sells. So now even they don't make the cut. That's what I mean about your definition being very rigid and specific.
I know about Mustaine referring to them as a speed metal band. When I was discovering metal in the early 90s, thrash and speed were interchangeable terms. Speed metal means something else now though: Mostly European lads playing Iron Maiden riffs at warp speed with falsetto vocals.

My point about Burn My Eyes is that because it was hugely successful while updating the thrash formula, bands like Forbidden, Testament, Slayer, Sacred Reich etc. suddenly started down tuning and getting groovy, seemingly just to stay relevant.

Look a lot of this arguably comes down to semantics, what you're calling thrash, I would argue leans more into crossover territory. There's just so much golden era "thrash" stuff  that doesn't fit into that bracket though.

I take your points about lazy journalism and retrospectively applying the term to anything with teeth in the 80s, Metal Church and Motorhead being two examples but I think you're just being a bit too heavy handed with the yardstick.

I'm just telling you what it was at the time when the term was coined and why it was coined. Thrash is a definite style of Metal and, when asked for a definition, I was able to give one which explains why those bands were put together at the time, highlighting the sonic characteristic which linked them before it became a marketing tag. I referred to RIP because people keep talking about it being a thrash classic, it was mentioned several times in this thread as such. Where is the thrash in it? Poison was the Cure? Polaris? It's so much more than thrash. Calling it a thrash album does it a massive disservice. So much stuff which wasn't thrash but was lazily called thrash over the years has diluted the term to have fuck all meaning, but I put Giggles' question to you - What is your definition of  "thrash album", or a "thrash song"?

Burn My Eyes came out in 94? Thrash was long gone by then. AJFA, 1988. Persistence of Time, Obnoxious, 1990. Mental Vortex, Dilute to Taste, 1991, Kin, Renewal, The Ritual, Force of Habit, Art of Rebellion, 1992. Chaos AD, Independent, Sound of White Noise, 1993. So many bands had moved on and experiemented with slower, heavier, more groove orientated Metal long, long before Burn My Eyes was ever released. There was nothing sudden about it. Several years of Death Metal and the likes of Cowboys from Hell and Vulgar Display would arguably have had an influence in that but Burn My Eyes just isn't a factor in any of those bands other than when Vio-Lence split up in 92/93.

QuoteSpeed metal means something else now though: Mostly European lads playing Iron Maiden riffs at warp speed with falsetto vocals.

Is that not power metal? That also used to be something else 30 years ago  :laugh:

Thrash.....  :abbath:


a short, fast, loud piece or passage of rock music.
"after all those twelve-bar thrashes, my fingers were blistered"

a style of fast, loud, harsh-sounding rock music, combining elements of punk and heavy metal.
noun: thrash metal
"a grungy thrash band"

Quote from: Carnage on August 25, 2020, 03:29:12 PM
Isn't 'speed metal' just what the yanks called thrash? That's how I always took it anyway. Stupid, stupid, meaningless phrase regardless, along with 'hair metal' (which isn't a thing).

Thrash is as broad a genre term as death metal has become over the years, with plenty of variation under the umbrella. Writing off so many indisputable thrash classics because they don't fit one's personal definition is a bit silly and dismissive.

Hair metal is a thing mate. They had the corresponding look to go with the name.

Quote from: Juggz on August 25, 2020, 03:32:14 PM

Quote from: Anton Arcane on August 25, 2020, 02:34:44 PM
You yourself referred to Megadeth as being an "original thrash band" and gave the example of them as being a band that moved on from thrash with RIP. That's why I asked specifically about Peace Sells. So now even they don't make the cut. That's what I mean about your definition being very rigid and specific.
I know about Mustaine referring to them as a speed metal band. When I was discovering metal in the early 90s, thrash and speed were interchangeable terms. Speed metal means something else now though: Mostly European lads playing Iron Maiden riffs at warp speed with falsetto vocals.

My point about Burn My Eyes is that because it was hugely successful while updating the thrash formula, bands like Forbidden, Testament, Slayer, Sacred Reich etc. suddenly started down tuning and getting groovy, seemingly just to stay relevant.

Look a lot of this arguably comes down to semantics, what you're calling thrash, I would argue leans more into crossover territory. There's just so much golden era "thrash" stuff  that doesn't fit into that bracket though.

I take your points about lazy journalism and retrospectively applying the term to anything with teeth in the 80s, Metal Church and Motorhead being two examples but I think you're just being a bit too heavy handed with the yardstick.

I'm just telling you what it was at the time when the term was coined and why it was coined. Thrash is a definite style of Metal and, when asked for a definition, I was able to give one which explains why those bands were put together at the time, highlighting the sonic characteristic which linked them before it became a marketing tag. I referred to RIP because people keep talking about it being a thrash classic, it was mentioned several times in this thread as such. Where is the thrash in it? Poison was the Cure? Polaris? It's so much more than thrash. Calling it a thrash album does it a massive disservice. So much stuff which wasn't thrash but was lazily called thrash over the years has diluted the term to have fuck all meaning, but I put Giggles' question to you - What is your definition of  "thrash album", or a "thrash song"?

Burn My Eyes came out in 94? Thrash was long gone by then. AJFA, 1988. Persistence of Time, Obnoxious, 1990. Mental Vortex, Dilute to Taste, 1991, Kin, Renewal, The Ritual, Force of Habit, Art of Rebellion, 1992. Chaos AD, Independent, Sound of White Noise, 1993. So many bands had moved on and experiemented with slower, heavier, more groove orientated Metal long, long before Burn My Eyes was ever released. There was nothing sudden about it. Several years of Death Metal and the likes of Cowboys from Hell and Vulgar Display would arguably have had an influence in that but Burn My Eyes just isn't a factor in any of those bands other than when Vio-Lence split up in 92/93.

QuoteSpeed metal means something else now though: Mostly European lads playing Iron Maiden riffs at warp speed with falsetto vocals.

Is that not power metal? That also used to be something else 30 years ago  :laugh:

Juggz is spot on with all of his definitions. RIP nor Justice nor South of Heaven are thrash. Always loved the term Speed Metal, and, yes, it's something very different indeed. Machine head never have been or never will be Thrash. They're some sort of post thrash jugga metal.

Quote from: Blackout on August 25, 2020, 05:18:07 PM

Quote from: Carnage on August 25, 2020, 03:29:12 PM
Isn't 'speed metal' just what the yanks called thrash? That's how I always took it anyway. Stupid, stupid, meaningless phrase regardless, along with 'hair metal' (which isn't a thing).

Thrash is as broad a genre term as death metal has become over the years, with plenty of variation under the umbrella. Writing off so many indisputable thrash classics because they don't fit one's personal definition is a bit silly and dismissive.

Hair metal is a thing mate. They had the corresponding look to go with the name.

Hair metal is a recent term. It used to be called glam rock or just heavy metal back then. It's probably because most of the lads don't have hair anymore, pouffy or otherwise  :D

It's not the 'hair' element I dispute, it's the 'metal' part. Rock'n'roll, glam rock, hard rock etc. are more accurate.

Quote from: Carnage on August 25, 2020, 08:27:40 PM
It's not the 'hair' element I dispute, it's the 'metal' part. Rock'n'roll, glam rock, hard rock etc. are more accurate.

Yep, I always knew it as Glam or Glam Rock.

I remember a few interviews with members of the big 4 et al and they refer to it as hair metal. Therefore I, a mere minion of metal, shall refer to it as such.  :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :laugh:

Quote from: Carnage on August 25, 2020, 08:27:40 PM
It's not the 'hair' element I dispute, it's the 'metal' part. Rock'n'roll, glam rock, hard rock etc. are more accurate.

I always refer to those bands as "shower of cunts", but sure look.

Justice is definitely thrash, Dyers Eve, Shortest Straw, Blackened come on!

Glam rock is Pedo Gary Glitter. Glam metal is Poison and Motley Crue

Quote from: Don Gately on August 25, 2020, 09:44:55 PM
Justice is definitely thrash, Dyers Eve, Shortest Straw, Blackened come on!

If we're ignoring Justice as a thrash record for its mid-paced songs then Ride and Puppets should be excluded too (Fade to Black is a ballad FFS).

Ride and Puppets have two or three thrash songs each with a couple other songs with thrash sections. Not to put too fine a point on it, but both have just as much if not more classical music sections. Are they albums of classical music? No. Are they albums of thrash metal? No.

Metallica were always more than thrash or anything else. They couldn't be put in a box, because they were always 5 steps ahead of every other band. There's a reason they're massive, and it's not all some cynical plot to attract audiences. They were simply incredible in their prime which, for me, goes all the way to the Black album. Not their fault every spa liked Enter Sandman, it's still a top tune.

Quote from: Pedrito on August 26, 2020, 08:30:03 PM
Metallica were always more than thrash or anything else. They couldn't be put in a box, because they were always 5 steps ahead of every other band. There's a reason they're massive, and it's not all some cynical plot to attract audiences. They were simply incredible in their prime which, for me, goes all the way to the Black album. Not their fault every spa liked Enter Sandman, it's still a top tune.

Yes but if you were to pick the most gifted musician of the big 4 you'd pick Mustaine. If Metallica had never used the songs he had written and they had became Megadeth songs instead would we look at things differently? A hypothetical situation of the highest order of course I know. Realistically Mustaines singing possibly prevented them from being even bigger.

Quote from: Bogmetaller on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
Yes but if you were to pick the most gifted musician of the big 4 you'd pick Mustaine.

Nah I'd probably say Benante, fantastic drummer and a great guitarist too

Quote from: Bogmetaller on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM

Quote from: Pedrito on August 26, 2020, 08:30:03 PM
Metallica were always more than thrash or anything else. They couldn't be put in a box, because they were always 5 steps ahead of every other band. There's a reason they're massive, and it's not all some cynical plot to attract audiences. They were simply incredible in their prime which, for me, goes all the way to the Black album. Not their fault every spa liked Enter Sandman, it's still a top tune.

Yes but if you were to pick the most gifted musician of the big 4 you'd pick Mustaine. If Metallica had never used the songs he had written and they had became Megadeth songs instead would we look at things differently? A hypothetical situation of the highest order of course I know. Realistically Mustaines singing possibly prevented them from being even bigger.

I'd def agree. I voted Megadeth  :laugh: it's very hard though to distinguish between Metallica, Megadeth or Slayer for me. They're all massive. I think Metallica, on a macro level, were just a lot more diverse in sounds and song types amongst a variety of other factors. Doesn't make them better, but it does make them far more popular. I think the variety of lyrical themes was important. The singing style is important. The 'technicality' is probably more accessible. The look, the myth they created aroubd themselves with a back story that was being pushed quite early. They seem to have known exactly how to market themselves from cery early on, whereas the others don't seem to have been son concerned. I wonder if Lars was the brains behind all of that or is there some shadowy figure in the background who was guiding them?

Slayer were just too heavy and Megadeth never managed to take themselves 100% seriously for the length of an entire album; that's how Metallica managed initially to resonate with a much wider audience where the others of the big four failed. MoP is fully tuned into sounds and themes that strike a primal cord in almost anyone (with the minimum requisite open-mindedness) who sits down and spends time with it.

Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on August 27, 2020, 10:05:42 AM
Slayer were just too heavy and Megadeth never managed to take themselves 100% seriously for the length of an entire album; that's how Metallica managed initially to resonate with a much wider audience where the others of the big four failed. MoP is fully tuned into sounds and themes that strike a primal cord in almost anyone (with the minimum requisite open-mindedness) who sits down and spends time with it.

Perfectly put.

Agreed..very nice

Quote from: Pedrito on August 27, 2020, 09:34:32 AM

Quote from: Bogmetaller on August 27, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
[quote author=Pedrito link=topic=1341.msg31634#msg31634 date=
I'd def agree. I voted Megadeth  :laugh: it's very hard though to distinguish between Metallica, Megadeth or Slayer for me. They're all massive. I think Metallica, on a macro level, were just a lot more diverse in sounds and song types amongst a variety of other factors. Doesn't make them better, but it does make them far more popular. I think the variety of lyrical themes was important. The singing style is important. The 'technicality' is probably more accessible. The look, the myth they created aroubd themselves with a back story that was being pushed quite early. They seem to have known exactly how to market themselves from cery early on, whereas the others don't seem to have been son concerned. I wonder if Lars was the brains behind all of that or is there some shadowy figure in the background who was guiding them?

I would tend to agree with this - you'd wonder was Ulrich always intent on achieving world domination and that started by appeasing the underground before they released the black album. Slayers ambition was to be as extreme as they could - which they achieved in spades by the standards of the day. With  Megadeth its possible that music supplemented their desire to get wasted at every possible opportunity. Metallica then had the musical talent to become as big as they did. I'm not the biggest Metalifan but theres no denying the genius that is in the likes of Ktulu or Orion - OK they're instrumentals but their melody was harnessed on the black album with the difference being hetfield started into his yeaaaaaaa type of singing which the masses latched onto.

Bob Rock should not be underestimated in all of it aswell. The 'Year and a half' vids are an amazing insight into how a hugely popular band went from selling millions of records to becoming the biggest band in the world and in no way was it by pure chance. Used to watch them videos repeatedly..incredible documents really.

I don't think Bob brought them anywhere they weren't looking to go in the first place. He just made it sound amazing.

I think he applied finishing touches to them that they needed dragging out of them a bit, but it was definitely where they wanted to go as you say. The Hammet 'Nothing Else Matters' solo section(if it wasn't staged, certainly didn't look so) was a real eye opener for a young lad as to the power of a producer in the whole game. The amount of attention to detail is amazing, Hetfield recording mental amounts of guitar tracks for some songs. Such a great watch, must drag them out again.

Yeah great show.

Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on August 27, 2020, 10:05:42 AM
Slayer were just too heavy and Megadeth never managed to take themselves 100% seriously for the length of an entire album; that's how Metallica managed initially to resonate with a much wider audience where the others of the big four failed. MoP is fully tuned into sounds and themes that strike a primal cord in almost anyone (with the minimum requisite open-mindedness) who sits down and spends time with it.

Megadeth never took themselves seriously for a whole album? I disagree but get what you mean, I don't think it held them back though. I think a band that plays fast fast will never be that big, there is no really fast songs that are huge and crossed over. Metallica played song at the right bmp and James had the most accessible voice and the big riffs, easy for people to grasp

The first 3 Megadeth albums did have those shite cover songs.

And, despite enjoying them myself, RIP has both Dawn Patrol and the lyrics to Hangar 18...not exactly serious art. Countdown is full of risible moments, and then we're already past the peak of their creativity, so...

I love the lyrics to Hangar 18 tbf, 'Military intelligence, two words combined that don't make sense', brilliant 😂.

Dawn Patrol is beyond cringeworthy, the vocals anyway. Musically it's just pointless. Never minded the Hangar 18 lyrics, they're a bit '15 year old poetry' alright but most metal is anyway.

The covers really stick out on Peace Sells and SFSGSW (less so on KIMB, which is shite throughout), I think the only cover they've done that wasn't shite is No More Mr. Nice Guy, and thankfully that wasn't on any proper album.

Peace Sells, So Far So Good and Rust in Peace is  some trilogy though.
My kid after being  a Metallica fan for the past 18 months has started broadening his horizons recently and has got into Megadeth, he plays guitar and I can see he is blown away by Mustaine.

I think this might have been up on the old forum but sure look it.....
Best Thrash band ever Metallica, with, And Jason For All....

https://youtu.be/vumrar1k928

'...And Justice For All' sounds just fine to me. Never understood this whole "needs bass" criticism. It's a sharp, punchy and mean sounding production job. The guitars even have some low end to them (if you listen carefully) so I've never had an issue with it. I have an original vinyl copy and it sounds great.

These days I find myself listening to the early mixes (or whatever they're called) disc that came with the deluxe reissue, it sounds rough alright - no solos, some tracks are instrumental, and so on - but it's a bit chunkier and goes down well.

Quote from: leatherface on September 05, 2020, 06:53:00 PM
'...And Justice For All' sounds just fine to me. Never understood this whole "needs bass" criticism. It's a sharp, punchy and mean sounding production job. The guitars even have some low end to them (if you listen carefully) so I've never had an issue with it. I have an original vinyl copy and it sounds great.

Sounds perfect. People are just whiney.

Quote from: Pedrito on September 06, 2020, 01:22:31 AM

Quote from: leatherface on September 05, 2020, 06:53:00 PM
'...And Justice For All' sounds just fine to me. Never understood this whole "needs bass" criticism. It's a sharp, punchy and mean sounding production job. The guitars even have some low end to them (if you listen carefully) so I've never had an issue with it. I have an original vinyl copy and it sounds great.

Sounds perfect. People are just whiney.

I was one of those, always imagining what it would sound like with bass on it and at first I was amazed with the Justice For Jason version on youtube, but lately I've gone back around to the regular, no-bass version. There is something very cold and clinical sounding about it that I like. And the guitar sound is chunky enough that it doesn't sound tinny, just sort of sparse is all.

It definitely is Lars' shining moment (probably with the help of nose snow).

I always thought the sparse sound reflected perfectly the idea of a post nuclear wasteland, which is what Blackened was about. Then you have a title like Harvester of Sorrow...perfect lining up of sound, imagery, concept, the lot. Sparse, arid, colourless.

Indeed the 'theme' of the entire album is one of incompleteness. The Shortest Straw, Frayed Ends of Sanity, The obvious gaping hole left by Cliff Burton on To Live is to Die, that sense of vacuum that emantes from the song.

One is about a soldier who loses everything, the ability to communicate, the ability to move, trapped in a living hell of incompleteness; bleak, void, vacuum.

Title track is the raping of Justice, the blinding of justice, even the image on the front cover captures incompleteness, a 'taking away' of something.


Eye of the Beholder: Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend

Dyers Eve: 'clipped my wings before I learnt to fly'

Every aspect of the album screams 'stunted' 'hindered' 'retarded' 'lessened', from the circumstances surrounding the band, to the artwork, the lyrics, the 'concept'.

And for that reason, and taking all those factors into account it is quite possibly their greatest achievement. A masterwork of art reflecting life, as Grunge a metal album as you're ever likely to hear, and the reason they crossed so many boundaries and appealed to listeners in all camps at the time, and the sound of the album is integral to that. It's not meant to be warm. That would be to miss the point entirely.

When Grunge hit and other metal bands became almost obsolete and had to scramble to change image and become relevant, Metallica didn't need to, they'd already long since crossed that threshold.

It's also why I need to change my vote to Metallica

Quote from: Pedrito on September 06, 2020, 12:47:02 PM
I always thought the sparse sound reflected perfectly the idea of a post nuclear wasteland, which is what Blackened was about. Then you have a title like Harvester of Sorrow...perfect lining up of sound, imagery, concept, the lot. Sparse, arid, colourless.

Indeed the 'theme' of the entire album is one of incompleteness. The Shortest Straw, Frayed Ends of Sanity, The obvious gaping hole left by Cliff Burton on To Live is to Die, that sense of vacuum that emantes from the song.

One is about a soldier who loses everything, the ability to communicate, the ability to move, trapped in a living hell of incompleteness; bleak, void, vacuum.

Title track is the raping of Justice, the blinding of justice, even the image on the front cover captures incompleteness, a 'taking away' of something.


Eye of the Beholder: Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend

Dyers Eve: 'clipped my wings before I learnt to fly'

Every aspect of the album screams 'stunted' 'hindered' 'retarded' 'lessened', from the circumstances surrounding the band, to the artwork, the lyrics, the 'concept'.

And for that reason, and taking all those factors into account it is quite possibly their greatest achievement. A masterwork of art reflecting life, as Grunge a metal album as you're ever likely to hear, and the reason they crossed so many boundaries and appealed to listeners in all camps at the time, and the sound of the album is integral to that. It's not meant to be warm. That would be to miss the point entirely.

When Grunge hit and other metal bands became almost obsolete and had to scramble to change image and become relevant, Metallica didn't need to, they'd already long since crossed that threshold.

Great post! But I still agree with Juggz that it's not primarily a thrash album.

Agree completely

One of the most 'nailed it' posts I've read  in ages Pedrito.

Cheers man, ah it's an amazing album. Up there with the Zepellins and Elvises and all them lads.

SLAYAAAAAAAAAR

Quote from: Pedrito on September 06, 2020, 12:47:02 PM
I always thought the sparse sound reflected perfectly the idea of a post nuclear wasteland, which is what Blackened was about. Then you have a title like Harvester of Sorrow...perfect lining up of sound, imagery, concept, the lot. Sparse, arid, colourless.

Indeed the 'theme' of the entire album is one of incompleteness. The Shortest Straw, Frayed Ends of Sanity, The obvious gaping hole left by Cliff Burton on To Live is to Die, that sense of vacuum that emantes from the song.

One is about a soldier who loses everything, the ability to communicate, the ability to move, trapped in a living hell of incompleteness; bleak, void, vacuum.

Title track is the raping of Justice, the blinding of justice, even the image on the front cover captures incompleteness, a 'taking away' of something.


Eye of the Beholder: Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend

Dyers Eve: 'clipped my wings before I learnt to fly'

Every aspect of the album screams 'stunted' 'hindered' 'retarded' 'lessened', from the circumstances surrounding the band, to the artwork, the lyrics, the 'concept'.

And for that reason, and taking all those factors into account it is quite possibly their greatest achievement. A masterwork of art reflecting life, as Grunge a metal album as you're ever likely to hear, and the reason they crossed so many boundaries and appealed to listeners in all camps at the time, and the sound of the album is integral to that. It's not meant to be warm. That would be to miss the point entirely.

When Grunge hit and other metal bands became almost obsolete and had to scramble to change image and become relevant, Metallica didn't need to, they'd already long since crossed that threshold.

Pretty much encapsulates my reason for Justice being my favourite Metallica album. I always felt I never knew why it was my favourite album considering I love the heaviest darkest metal out there but you nailed it.

Released this day 32 years ago, by the by.

When AJFA first came out I though the production was just the way it was and took it at face value and didn't really see/hear anything wrong with it. Its all in the ear I guess and what you like/don't like to hear...

Megamarty......

https://www.loudersound.com/features/watch-history-being-made-as-marty-friedman-auditions-for-megadeth-in-1989

Quote from: Kurt Cocaine on September 25, 2020, 06:50:27 AM
Megamarty......

https://www.loudersound.com/features/watch-history-being-made-as-marty-friedman-auditions-for-megadeth-in-1989

:abbath: :abbath: :abbath:

Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on September 07, 2020, 10:12:43 AM
Released this day 32 years ago, by the by.

I'm going to throw it on right now actually. Been a while since I've spun it.

Whoever picked Anthrax is clearly taking the piss :D

Poor Sodom not getting any votes - have been watching the Lords of Depravity parts 1 and 2 there recently - 8 hours of content there. They did some woeful covers but some of their stuff is immense

Is it though? I just can't get into them at all. I remember when I was a young lad in the early 90s a friend of mine never shut up about them and every time I called over to his house he'd put on Sodom records. To me they always sounded so amateur and entry level compared to even the B grade American stuff, let alone the greats.

Quote from: Anton Arcane on September 26, 2020, 08:07:35 PM
Is it though? I just can't get into them at all. I remember when I was a young lad in the early 90s a friend of mine never shut up about them and every time I called over to his house he'd put on Sodom records. To me they always sounded so amateur and entry level compared to even the B grade American stuff, let alone the greats.

That's actually how I'd describe Destruction ironically enough - generic thrash by the numbers for the most part. A sodom greatest hits would have some great stuff on it.

Agree about Destruction - absolutely muck.

I think not all Sodom is created equally, but Agent Orange is a banger.