Random metal related thoughts

[Anvil]

Not sure why this just jumped into my head. 

[ochoill]

Celtic Frost sounds like some kind of Aldi knockoff of Smirnoff Ice

[Eoin McLove]

Sometimes the only thing that'll do is a hefty dose of Scott Reagers squawking in your ear 

[Carnage]

Reports coming in that Ian Watkins has been stabbed to death in prison. Only seeing it from The Scum and The Mirror so hardly reliable sources, but no harm if true.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

BBC too. Ding-dong.

[Eoin McLove]

Anyone have any idea what the thing is in the cover of Pretty Hate Machine? I could never figure it out. It looks like a clip of some sort... clothing? Hair clip? Machinery?

[Carnage]

I always thought it was a wheel or cog or something like that, but according to Wikipedia:

The cover art was designed by Gary Talpas, which is a photo of the blades of a turbine stretched vertically to create the illusion of a rib cage. For the 2010 reissue, visual artist Rob Sheridan was assigned to update the cover art by Reznor to tone down the heavy late-Eighties neon aesthetic. Unfortunately, Sheridan was unable to locate the original artwork as it was deemed lost forever. To remedy this, he had to reverse engineer the cover art by scanning the existing cover art and digitally painted the image in very high resolution.

[Eoin McLove]

I always thought it was a wheel or cog or something like that, but according to Wikipedia:

The cover art was designed by Gary Talpas, which is a photo of the blades of a turbine stretched vertically to create the illusion of a rib cage. For the 2010 reissue, visual artist Rob Sheridan was assigned to update the cover art by Reznor to tone down the heavy late-Eighties neon aesthetic. Unfortunately, Sheridan was unable to locate the original artwork as it was deemed lost forever. To remedy this, he had to reverse engineer the cover art by scanning the existing cover art and digitally painted the image in very high resolution.

Nice, thanks. So it's just really abstract nothing    I like the colour aesthetic, but I've been used to looking at it since the early 90s.

[Carnage]

It's of its time alright. I also thought it was a still from the Head Like A Hole video, which is fierce dated now as well. Cracker of a tune though.

[Ducky]

So yer man from Lostphrophets had it coming. Clearly an irredeemable sack of shit (to put it mildly). But would we have the same reaction if say convicted homophobic murderer Faust from Emperor or the boy Varg got shanked?

Watkins was clearly a deranged sicko, but if he's 100/100, then the other lads are in the 95/100 league. Their psychopathic behaviours have zero place in civilised society. 

Like I'm of the firm opinion that Jon Nödtveidt did the world a fucking favour when he offed his own homophobic, cuntish, sack-of-human-detritus self in praise of "muh dark lord", so where do the other aforementioned sacks of shit fall on that spectrum? Particularly with Faust - there's no rehabilitation or redemption from committing homophobic murder. He should be banged up up for life and deserved a similar fate to Watkins, but he's somehow a free man today.

You see a lot of (former) Lostphrophets fans online saying they can't listen to the music because of the repugnant, deranged shit Watkins did, so why do the lads who committed murders get a seemingly free pass from fans?

Just to stress - what Watkins did made him the fucking devil incarnate and I hope his last few moments on this earth consisted of nothing but sheer terror, but what those other lads did puts them at the bottom 1% of society and beyond comprehension to any reasonable, morally sound individual. So why is their art okay? Do they get a bit more leeway due to their art because black metal is trve and kewl?

Like the last (and first) time I heard Lostphrophets' music was when I went to get chips at Ozzfest 2002, so if I gave them a go on Spotify today is it really that much worse than listening to "I Am The Black Wizards" for the thousandth time?

TL;DR - separating the art from the artist, where do we draw the line, if at all?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I lost a developed reply there and am too lazy to write it all again properly.

- If you want to listen to Lostprophets, knock yourself out 
- A better example, with good music, is Inquisition. I find it hard to listen to them now because the pathetic nature of his crimes clashes with the entire cosmic force vibe their music aims at.
- Think of that scene where Wayne and Garth meet Handsome Dan 
- Heinous as Faust's or Nodtveidt's crimes were, they don't pose that particular problem of esthetic dissonance with their music (also, Faust was just the drummer    )
- Something pretentious about the Marquis de Sade.

[jpm4]

So yer man from Lostphrophets had it coming. Clearly an irredeemable sack of shit (to put it mildly). But would we have the same reaction if say convicted homophobic murderer Faust from Emperor or the boy Varg got shanked?

Watkins was clearly a deranged sicko, but if he's 100/100, then the other lads are in the 95/100 league. Their psychopathic behaviours have zero place in civilised society. 

Like I'm of the firm opinion that Jon Nödtveidt did the world a fucking favour when he offed his own homophobic, cuntish, sack-of-human-detritus self in praise of "muh dark lord", so where do the other aforementioned sacks of shit fall on that spectrum? Particularly with Faust - there's no rehabilitation or redemption from committing homophobic murder. He should be banged up up for life and deserved a similar fate to Watkins, but he's somehow a free man today.

You see a lot of (former) Lostphrophets fans online saying they can't listen to the music because of the repugnant, deranged shit Watkins did, so why do the lads who committed murders get a seemingly free pass from fans?

Just to stress - what Watkins did made him the fucking devil incarnate and I hope his last few moments on this earth consisted of nothing but sheer terror, but what those other lads did puts them at the bottom 1% of society and beyond comprehension to any reasonable, morally sound individual. So why is their art okay? Do they get a bit more leeway due to their art because black metal is trve and kewl?

Like the last (and first) time I heard Lostphrophets' music was when I went to get chips at Ozzfest 2002, so if I gave them a go on Spotify today is it really that much worse than listening to "I Am The Black Wizards" for the thousandth time?

TL;DR - separating the art from the artist, where do we draw the line, if at all?

Plenty of people dont excuse Varg or Faust or your man from Dissection - head over to the RABM reddit if you want to see some hilarious pearl clutching around how much sketchiness is acceptable in black metal.

Also there was about 20 years between Watkins getting arrested and the other stuff happening. Attitudes change and younger people might have different opinions on what is acceptable or not compared to the 90s. 

[Eoin McLove]

I think part of the problem is that as unforgivable as Watkins's actions were, his music is even worse*

I find it easy to separate the crimes from the music when it comes to black metal. I would go so far as to say that the murders and arsons feed into the mythology around black metal, adding a level of authenticity to their claims of Satanism and misanthropy. At the same time I see them as the actions of dim young lads trying to outdo each other in an extreme case of peer pressure. Mostly I think the music is so interesting that I can enjoy it on its own terms. If Varg had turned out to be a child molester I think I would have a much harder time listening to his music. That's hypocritical, perhaps, but there you go. The blood curdling nature of his crimes is easier to contend with for whatever reason. Maybe a psychologist or a philosopher could make sense of it.

I'm not familiar with Lost Prophets's music despite my brilliant joke but I believe it's nu metal, or emo sort of stuff which doesn't quite hit the same levels of darkness thematically as black metal. It usually leans more towards overcoming personal struggles, but I'm relying on clichés here to build my picture. Maybe LP were incredibly dark and disturbing thematically and his paedoing adds loads of cred to their music. In that case being stabbed to death will no doubt elevate his status even higher in the eyes of the most true LP warriors**. Or not.





*that's the joke
**Lost Propheteers?

[Trev]

With all the division being stoked the last few years it seems that everyone is on the same page with Ian Watkins being killed

Maybe that's what the party's need to lead with to bring people back together, policies of more paedos getting shanked

[John Kimble]

Ah here Ducky, does context or nuance have any influence on your worldview?

Faust- yeah, he carried out a despicable crime. He was fairly young at the time (if memory serves correct, just about 18?? Which means a few months younger he would have been treated as a juvenile within the justice system). By all accounts, he was a bit dimwitted and easily led. His overall contribution to Emperor was fairly minimal so I don't think anyone would really view their legacy in terms of his actions and rightly so.

Varg - another asshole. Murdered another lad who was also a bit of a prick. Varg gets a pass, from me at least, because there's no comparison between anything Lost Prophets ever released and, say, Filosofem which is genius. Please don't bother with the subjective argument here, I've no doubt the average LP fan thinks Burzum is a load of noise. I think you know what the general consensus is here.

Your value system is a bit all over the shop. You're on another thread saying Charlie Kirk deserved what he got because he was intolerant and a bigot, you're slating the likes of Faust and Notveidt for being intolerant bigots...where's your tolerance here? Is it death sentences for all? Personally, I'd have no issue imposing a death sentence on your musical hero Jay Kay for his numerous crimes against good taste but thankfully I've no say on these matters...chances are some day he'll write himself off in some road traffic accident involving one of his many stupidly expensive sports cars which he's funded on the back of his quest to save the environment through self-righteous acid jazz performed by middle class white guys.

On a less flippant and simplistic note, I think when it comes to establishing a "hierarchy" of crimes against people, anything that involves kids is rightfully viewed as the lowest of the low. Like others here, I had the misfortune of reading some of Watkins court reports and there's nothing redeemable there. And the whole trve/kvlt nonsense doesn't hold any sway either. I'm pretty sure Thee Plague of Gentlemen can't be found on many Now Playing threads these days.