Pet Peeves

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Not really sure what your point is there though. It's not "the lefties" fault that these lads exist today, and the state of Dublin in the 80s certainly wasn't "the lefties" fault! The only difference between how a "leftie" and a non-leftie reacts to this kind of heinous act, is that the former will generally try to think about how to solve the problem of crime and thuggery on a long-term and global basis, beyond merely punishing the lads themselves. Because we do know from countless historical examples that even if over-the-top punishments are doled out, that by itself solves nothing. So, off with their heads if ye like, whatever, but it won't change anything.

It's just funny how kind of mad the anti-left discourse gets sometimes. At times blamed for exaggerating violence against women, then when there's a flagrant example of just that, accused of wanting to excuse the perpetrators. Whatever about them having nothing to do or nowhere to go, it's pretty clear those lads have absolutely no fucking guidance in life worth speaking of, and just thank christ they're white Irish lads, otherwise we would never hear the fucking end of the "dere all fuckin' animals from dere!" 

[Doctor Crippen]

Not really sure what your point is there though. It's not "the lefties" fault that these lads exist today, and the state of Dublin in the 80s certainly wasn't "the lefties" fault! The only difference between how a "leftie" and a non-leftie reacts to this kind of heinous act, is that the former will generally try to think about how to solve the problem of crime and thuggery on a long-term and global basis, beyond merely punishing the lads themselves. Because we do know from countless historical examples that even if over-the-top punishments are doled out, that by itself solves nothing. So, off with their heads if ye like, whatever, but it won't change anything.

It's just funny how kind of mad the anti-left discourse gets sometimes. At times blamed for exaggerating violence against women, then when there's a flagrant example of just that, accused of wanting to excuse the perpetrators. Whatever about them having nothing to do or nowhere to go, it's pretty clear those lads have absolutely no fucking guidance in life worth speaking of, and just thank christ they're white Irish lads, otherwise we would never hear the fucking end of the "dere all fuckin' animals from dere!"

My point is as rough as the area that I am from and the headbangers that came from there didn't try pushing people under trains, spit at people on the street or just abuse random people they passed by. They didn't cycle by women on the docks and stab them or break into old peoples home and beat them to death. Occassionly you might get someone who behaved like that but from underlying psychological or pre existing issues from horrific upbringing, but it was rare.

The kids doing this stuff today are doing it because they know no one can lay a hand on them, they also know when they go to court they will get off lightly and probably won't have a lasting record once they turn 18.

The reason, I believe they get away with this is that our legal system has been too generous and I believe it should be harsher in its sentencing and punishment. This is my opinion and in fairness I am entitled to it with respect, if you are upset by the use of the word 'lefties' then apologies. Where I am from the use of the word in the past would represent a more lenient leaning but I am from the tradition that the punishment should fit the crime. As I say I believe a lot of young people are well aware of what they can and cannot get away with at the moment.

[Eoin McLove]

How do you combat this? I'm all for opening more schools and having amenities and whatnot but if you have areas that are rife with drug abuse and parents who barely register the existence of their children, and who provide precisely zero guidance, then all of that infrastructure is redundant. Legalising drugs might solve some of the issues, but you will still end up with zombies who can't deal with their kids. Harsher punishments? Sounds good but it doesn't seem to work. I think that,  possibly, there is no solution to this problem. Perhaps it can be slightly reduced at times and in places, but my suspicion is that you never eradicate it,  you simply move it along. There is a tough guy culture that exists among a certain portion of young men and they have no way of expressing it. Maybe these lads should be directed into the army. I think that having a firm hand like the army would provide could work wonders for at least some of these lads. Mature them, give them structure and focus and even give them an education. Just a brain fart, but it could be at least a partial solution. I certainly believe that a good hard kicking should be the least those fucks get for their behaviour, and I'm not sure if that makes me a Commie or a Nazi in this instance.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

You're looking at Dublin of the 80s through very rose tinted glasses. On a metal relevant level even, what about ticket bashing? There was no shortage of lads like this in the 80s and 90s, from my recollections. I remember my aul wan and uncle discussing, in the early, early 90s, how bad Summerhill had become compared to when they grew up there in the 50s and 60s.

[Caomhaoin]

The army idea might make things worse, if the IDF maniacs on holidays after discharge are anything to go by.

I think the key is a viable deterrent. Doesn't have to be what the anabaptists got in Münster (although yes, sounds nice), on the spot fines for the little pricks. At my school we used to get fined for a whole host of things, stung a couple of times and you'd rethink whatever it was that you were doing.

[Doctor Crippen]

Far from it am i looking at Dublin of the 80's through rose tinted glasses in fact if you knew more about the inner city in the 80's and 90's through first hand experience you might understand that is quite an annoying and off hand retort. I lost family and friends I grew up with to the heroin epidemic and its various facets in Dublin, others emigrated to get away from the place at that time and in the 90's but that not what I am talking about.

As I outlined there were social problems and a huge drug problem but I am talking about the behaviour of Juveniles today pushing people under trains, attacking Gardai, punching a lad in the back of the head at the weekend and knocking him out, not even robbing him, just doing it because they can. Attacking delivery guys etc etc etc.

By the way its also not just the inner city where most of these things are happening it is in outlying suburbs as well.

My Aunties and Uncles lived in Summerhill, Ballybough and Dolphins barn in the 70's, 80' 90's and up to their deaths and I still have family in some of those areas and as I say I grew up in the inner city myself before we moved out ourselves but most if not all my peers and family members new the consequences of their actions and many when they misbehaved or broke the law were punished accordingly and they acknowledged that. By the way those areas are as bad today if not worse than they were in the 90's, take a walk up there some night and have a look for yourself.

Again, as I restate, this is my opinion, that the justice system needs to have greater consequences for the behaviour of juveniles today who are repeatedly offending and particularly in a violent manner. Whether that is educationally, or through programmes where they give back to society but there have to be consequences and the consequences have to fit the crime. The girl they pushed under that train could have been killed, they didn't mug someone for a concert ticket, not that I am taking away from mugging but lets have some context here.

Thats my final post on the matter and you can post away all you want it won't change my opinion at this stage in my life

[Eoin McLove]

The army wouldn't work for everyone, no. But it seems that there is no single cure. Broken homes combined with drug, alcohol and gambling addictions will always serve to hobble poorer communities. Dragging deprived areas out of poverty, creating jobs and futures for communities combined with policing, education, drug and alcohol awareness and so on is the only possible answer. But then, that's a long term investment and long term thinking is seldom any given government's strong point.

In a way, though, it might simply be a case of the genie being out of the bottle. There will always be a portion of society who reject the benefits it has to offer and will be drawn to crime, drugs, violence etc.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I get ya Crippen, and I'm not going to pretend I spent as much time in the city as someone who lived there, but I saw a lot since it's where my cousins lived, and still live. Lads like these are actually the kids of our generation, the generation that grew up in the 80s and 90s, so do you think that plays some part or is it all just no fear of judicial penal consequences?

[Kunt 4 Life]

Isn't one of the guys at least 20 and plays in a football club? You'd think that would help provide structure or give them something to do and focus on?

[Eoin McLove]

Young lads in groups. That's a part of it too, I'm sure. We were all young and immature and smart arsed when we were young- not violent or scumbaggy in most cases-  so there is that to factor in.

[Blackout]

Young lads in groups. That's a part of it too, I'm sure. We were all young and immature and smart arsed when we were young- not violent or scumbaggy in most cases-  so there is that to factor in.

Because - rightly or wrongly - we would've gotten a hammering either from parents or the adults we were giving abuse to.

[Ollkiller]

Things went downhill fast in this country when you couldn't beat up other people's children.

[astfgyl]

Things went downhill fast in this country when you couldn't beat up other people's children.

As much as that seems in jest there is something to it. Perhaps there's an alternative to the beatings but something that could be considered a consequence would do no harm. As was mentioned, a lot of us were typical knob teenagers but simply weren't as scummy as that. I know my own pals wouldn't have stuck me doing anything like what went on in that video, so maybe there's something in that but it's a different world entirely down here in the sticks for some reason.

[Doctor Crippen]

I get ya Crippen, and I'm not going to pretend I spent as much time in the city as someone who lived there, but I saw a lot since it's where my cousins lived, and still live. Lads like these are actually the kids of our generation, the generation that grew up in the 80s and 90s, so do you think that plays some part or is it all just no fear of judicial penal consequences?

Its about upbringing in part I really believe, my parents were strict as fuck with us, my relations the same and even the families in our blocks. If we stepped out of line we knew the consequence once we got home. So I wonder does there need to be a sanction for the parents of these children too? Especially In the case of repeat offender juveniles.

Where we grew up if a kid in a family was running amok the community in the area got together and discussed it and then the family were approached not in any threatening way, but a conversation took place to see what could be done and how the community could address it. When that didn't work then the Guards usually stepped in and in all honesty that could culminate in a hiding of some sort . Not the ideal solution or the ultimate solution but for many lads in my area it was certainly a deterrent if you knew a big guard was looking for you.

Also the Gardai need more power over this issue, I am not talking about giving kids a hiding but at least grabbing them and putting them into a car and either taking them home or to the station for a night or two. A zero tolerance approach is probably needed for this to stamp it out. If a kid is continually offending, being violent or causing havoc in a community then I think the government should also look at sanctioning the domestic environment. This could be adjustment of parent benefits, relocation or for parents and children to attend educational classes together on behavioural issues. Many families were asked nicely to leave our area and that they were not welcome and they knew to move on because to stay meant ostracisation from the community.

One thing that I have been thinking about is, and you mightn't believe this but the Guards in our area were actually very good to families. You had community police always on the beat, always talking to people, helping families, giving advice and what I witnessed very often was them helping young people to get jobs by being references and in one case driving a girl to an interview in North Dublin. The beat police seem to have reduced in number and I think the lack of their very presence has had an impact on communities. But again this is from my experience in the inner city much of the current behaviour is taking place outside of the inner city and a lot of it in the inner city is by children from outer areas like Cabra, Driminagh, Crumlin etc so I dont think it is specific to juveniles 'from the flats'

Children as well as adults need to know that in the end there are ultimately consequences for your actions, if you don't you have a situation we are currently in were people behave in any way that they want. 

[Blackout]

Things went downhill fast in this country when you couldn't beat up other people's children.

Oh ffs. Nobody advocated beating children you idiot. What I was saying is that TEENS (not children in case your reading comprehension is that of a childs) in earlier years feared repercussions that come from physically assaulting people.