The Donald vs Big Tech

[hellfire]

Using the depressed analogy (a subject I know far too well). I can have the best GP and consultant on the planet. If I don't follow their instructions I'm going to feel like shit.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

If there is an anti-education sentiment in parts of the black community in the US, then that is something that needs to change. Maybe these communities need their Jordan Peterson to remind them that they have a certain amount of power to improve their circumstances. Choosing not to engage in criminal activity and to get a job is a great first step- this of course applies equally to any sub-set of society regardless of gender,  race,  religion etc. Role models who will instil self-worth rather than perpetuating a sense of victimhood, without being dismissed as Uncle Toms will be the real heroes for those communities- not hysterical,  looting maniacs with an axe to grind.

In short, this is "the American dream" solution. But "the American dream" is a huge part of the problem. You talk about personas of victimhood, but you're listening to personas of "I'm black and I made it, so anyone can!" The American dream. The American truth? Only a small proportion of people can make it, that's how the system is rigged. The dream is to be in that proportion and leave the others behind, all the while telling them it's their fault...because you only deserve praise for succeeding if everyone else can be blamed for failing.

[Eoin McLove]

I love how you manage to write off successful black people so easily.  It's in no way condescending. These people have a vested interest in the well being of the black communities.  They come from them,  perhaps not the ghettos, which they themselves openly admit- even going so far as to explicitly acknowledge that they might not be the right voices to talk to young black people,  maybe role models directly from deprived areas who have the right accent,  the right vernacular need to be the leading lights- but they are highlighting that AS WELL AS the inarguable flaws in the system,  there needs to be a sense of responsibility and self-worth instilled into these communities from within AS WELL AS from without.  McWhorter admits that he got his job as a linguist as a direct result of positive discrimination. He says there were far more qualified candidates but he got the job because he was black.  It took him 5 years to realise he wasn't doing the job as conscientiously as he should be- he was half-baked and he decided to get fully cooked,  in his own words. So these men aren't just standing aloof from the situation,  sneering at those who haven't "made it". They are actually trying to contend with the complex issues of both the remnants of systemic racism,  which they see as actually being on the wane overall,  and the sense of broken identity that plagues poor black communities.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Choosing not to engage in criminal activity and to get a job is a great first step

This was one of your arguments. In reality, in the worst areas, the kids are in crime before they're of legal age to work.

I'm not writing off successful black people at all; they had to work very hard to get where they are. But when I listen to a lot of them ("them", meaning the kind of guys you've been linking to), they seem totally disconnected from the day to day reality of ghetto life as described by guys who worked even harder just to break free of crime and now work directly to improve communities from within. Those with the direct, hands on and personal experience of that life generally seem to tell a different story to the Ivy League educated ones. Maybe there are some good discussions across these divides that would be interesting to listen to, I'll have a look.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

And apologies for the sarky "Why didn't I think of that!?" Simpsons reference, but it's a poor sell of the position of certain upper middle-class black men you've been advocating we listen to if you come back from listening to them with; black people from the projects should get jobs instead of becoming criminals.

Maybe you have a point about the role models, but maybe it's a fact that people who grow up in that environment and manage to rise above it understand the situation better and are of the opinion that deep change does have to come from without. In certain conditions, setting a community up to have self-belief is setting the majority of them up for failure that is out of their hands.

[astfgyl]

We should at least make it to 50 pages? astfgyl and mugz can yoke it out, let us appease the untouchable, billionaire demigods.

I take umbrage with two things here and I wish to clear them up.

First, I am being lumped in with another user with whom I have no affiliation as if we are in some sort of club together here. I will admit to enjoying a lot of his posts, but then that goes for many other users here. Any opinions expressed on here by me are entirely my own, and I tried on several occasions to steer this thread back on course before it morphed into all that it currently encompasses.

Second, the yokes comment may have appeared to be taking the piss but it was actually designed to make a point that people on all sides need to just forgive and move on, otherwise the world will never be free of prejudice and bigotry. The yoke is proverbial. Maybe that was misunderstood along the way but I thought I was making a fair point all the same, while trying to use humour to somewhat defuse the generally confrontational nature of posting in online forums.

Also if you look at where the thread has gone since you made this comment, it wasn't myself who dragged it out to its' current length and if you are looking to make a pariah of somebody, I would rather you didn't involve me in it.

Thanks.

[hellfire]

I thought the yokes thing added some much needed lightening of the tone.

[astfgyl]

Thanks Hellfire, I appreciate that.

....and are of the opinion that deep change does have to come from without.

I'll bring a little bit of Gandhi to this one

"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

I think this quote quite nicely encapsulates what is wrong with looting and burning and destroying statues and throwing rocks and petrol bombs at cops and generally acting the complete cunt in protest at somebody else doing something which you perceive as wrong. That something being the George Floyd incident in this instance. These communities, which undeniably have suffered on racial grounds over the years really do need to take the bull by the horns and change themselves now instead of smashing everything up and generally behaving like absolute pricks in the hope that everybody else will change to suit them.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

"Change themselves" in what way? I would have preferred "You suffer, but why?" if we were going to do pithy quotes.

Haven't seen much feedback on the US having the world's largest prison population, much of it privatized. Even leaving race out of it, what kind of conditions do you think have led to that? A fair system in which anyone can make it if they just apply themselves? Or some kind of weird semi-police state where prisoners = profit for certain private interests. I would have thought the evidence for the US being a totally warped and broken system were blatant, but when it comes to deciding how African-Americans should act within it, all of a sudden they must be the problem, despite having the least power and for the least amount of time.

[astfgyl]

Yeah the quote simplifies the matter of course but he makes a fair point.

Would it be a fairer system if the private prisons had an equal population of whites in them? I don't think so. In fact I think the existence of the private prisons at all is the problem there. I am completely against every bit of the idea of that. I fully agree that the US system is categorically fucked up but I still don't agree that the people who grow up in the low income areas simply have to choose a life of crime because of that. I can understand that it is easier for them than slogging it out in a dead end job for minimum wage (If they can manage to get one), but just because it is easier doesn't make it right.
I do think that these guys need to change themselves inasmuch as the local police need to change themselves in terms of how they view policing in these communities. With cooperation from the communities, the job of the police and other authorities could change from simply beating down on criminals to actually helping the communities to police themselves in terms of dealing with issues such as drug abuse in low income areas and the people themselves could do other things such as volunteer for urban regeneration projects in conjunction with city authorities and even perhaps federal funding. They could start business co operatives in these areas and attempt to provide some degree of employment in their own areas, possibly even through a combination of all of these things improving the image of these places and attracting more diversity to them rather than them being simply projects for minorities. They could set up volunteers to teach in their own communities to try give a chance to the kids there who do want to learn something. I'm sure a lot of these ideas have already been implemented but I don't have the research done to back up whether they have or not.

Or they could simply go out and smash and burn things and treat the police as their enemy which in turn can't be doing much for the attitude of the police towards them. They need to cooperate with each other, the authorities and the disadvantaged communities and it may be a slow process with quite a few hiccups along the way, but they might build a fairer society together.

Or they could stay rioting and looting...

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The country with the world's largest prison population is a country that does not invest in poor communities. And from all indications and analysis, it would very much appear to be a conscious decision.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Justice? Too expensive for the accused, too costly for the state.

Sure, do a couple of years, yeah? it'll make you look cooler to the rest of the gang, and you'll learn how to be a real criminal even if you're not one already, you'll be all set to go when you get out!

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1034201

[astfgyl]

I'm probably taking the egalitarian view on it a bit, to be fair. It will be a long road out of hell for the US, and I'm in no way surprised that things have turned sour but I can't agree with things like tearing down statues and destroying cities and attacking the police in the name of fairness. Surely there are enough whites there who aren't cunts, who will stand in peaceful protest alongside the blacks to bring about changes to education and opportunities in these disadvantaged areas. Bring cities to a standstill by all means, just leave a city there so they can all live in relative peace and harmony after the fact. Tearing down the statues and getting the whites to admit to some sort of collective responsibility over the actions of the past generations seems to me to be a bit like my wife keeping on about something I did years ago whenever she is annoyed over something I did lately. Stick to the problem at hand and work together to find a solution.

Surely somewhere in the US there are disadvantaged white areas which also suffer from a lack of education and employment opportunities? Maybe not to the extent of the black areas, but still shouldn't they be working towards fixing the problem of the disparity between rich and poor of all colours rather than keeping it as a race issue? I believe that's an issue which applies to all parts of the world and needs to be fixed everywhere. Everyone is focusing on race while the rich keep getting richer and perpetuating the root cause of the current problem there. Imagine giving UBI to all in the US, paid for by fair taxation of massive corporations and imagine how quickly that would sort out a lot of the feeling of oppression among the black communities. I agree wholeheartedly that something must be done but kowtowing to the black folks is as racist as oppressing them, because it only serves to highlight the fact that they are a separate community, rather than fostering integration and achieving the supposed goal of true equality.

In fact, I'm not surprised all of the large corporations are fanning the flames of the race issue, when it takes the eye off them and their massive, competition-smashing profits. Maskirovka.

We in Ireland for example, instead of virtue signalling for BLM could be out in protest at the rich/poor divide in our own country. It would be a more positive application of our time, and who knows, real changes to the concept of equality in a country the size of Ireland might have more influence on other countries than meaningless protest in a country the size of Ireland.

[mugz]

Using the depressed analogy (a subject I know far too well). I can have the best GP and consultant on the planet. If I don't follow their instructions I'm going to feel like shit.

what if I told you you're not suffering from depression, but you're depressed because life at its best barely scrapes mediocrity?

[astfgyl]

Justice? Too expensive for the accused, too costly for the state.

Sure, do a couple of years, yeah? it'll make you look cooler to the rest of the gang, and you'll learn how to be a real criminal even if you're not one already, you'll be all set to go when you get out!

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1034201

That is a fucked up system to be allowed happen. Those figures are crazy, regarding how many go to trial.