In terms of controversial content, lyrically or in terms of artwork etc have things gone a little stale?
When what's the last time you were genuinely shocked by something? I think the last time I thought something was on the edge was the cover of the last Nimenorean record.
99% of the time a "controversial" or shocking cover/lyrical content is just a gimmick to get people talking about a band that would garner no interest otherwise and comes across very forced and insincere.
These days maybe. But Once Upon The Cross for example was controversial, the music was there to back it up, the release date even caused a stir back then.
Of course, the album even got pulled from being played on the sound cellar top ten on the John Kenny show on Sunday's back when it came out because of the cover and lyrics. In the internet age when the most extreme images, videos and other content are a click away people are far more desensitised to things that would have been outrageous in the mid to late 90's.
I think there is a fair amount of self censorship in metal these days. It's easier than having your gigs protested or cancelled. It's pretty safe now to insult the Christian god the new orthodoxy encourages it.
I would've thought because things have gone mental in terms of being politically correct more acts would be looking to push buttons.
It's disappointing that they didn't. Unfortunately for bands it's easier to play it safe. Nobody wants 100 whiny vegans hell bent on shutting down their gig.
Quote from: M Void on November 24, 2018, 02:41:19 PM
In the internet age when the most extreme images, videos and other content are a click away people are far more desensitised to things that would have been outrageous in the mid to late 90's.
Would have been my first thought as well. Just that much harder to shock these days.
Been listening to a bit of new Peste Noire and M8l8th recently, two bands on the extreme right who are definitely pushing buttons. PN are incredibly catchy sing writers and mix bm and French folk through a hip hop filter. It's an interesting combination as they seem to be very much anti- immigration, yet openly take massive influence from the French rap scene. M8l8th are alright but less interesting (even though there appears to be a fair bit of cross over with both bands). In their videos their fans are sieg heiling on stage which says it all. So there are bands out there still pushing buttons and even if I'm not into their political views I think it's good that there are still antagonistic black metal bands operating as good bm should always have an unsettling element. The post- WITTR bm landscape has become a bit too nice and cuddly for me.
Quote from: hellfire on November 24, 2018, 03:41:56 PM
Nobody wants 100 whiny vegans hell bent on shutting down their gig.
Think this has happened to Tyr a lot because the singer is involved in the grind whale hunt
I've been a bit Peste Noire fan for years and it's been interesting to see the road Famine has gone down. That political ground is about the last bastion of metal and he's been very clever the way he's done things in making the band more popular than ever, which helps when you put out your stuff on your own label. I thought the last album was ok in parts but not great overall. The first track they put up off this upcoming album I thought was absolutely excellent and got me excited for it. The subsequent rap-ish track has put a bit of cold water on my hopes for a great album. With M8l8th I first heard them years ago on YouTube and it was this epic black metal with clean Slavic vocals that sounded great. I then picked up the album ant the rest just sounded like metalcore with bm vocals.
"You should have seen the cover they wanted to go with. It wasn't a glove, I can tell you that!"
What would be controversial today? Behemoth, for example, still bang away at the same kind of "controversy" that Deicide had going on Once Upon The Cross, but who gives a flying fuck these days? The mainstream orthodoxy is no longer christian in the majority of the western world. If a metal band wanted to be truly controversial today, they'd have to identify the new sacred lambs of most of society and start poking at them. And if the only thing you can come up with is the various "snowflake" issues, then you're only really left with the option of being racist, homophobic, misogynistic, etc. And that's all been done to death too, it was called the 80s. I'm sure the populist wave in politics may well bring a populist wave in culture too, I just wouldn't expect much of it to be of the same calibre and dark self-irony as Peste Noire. Ultimately, since no form of morality has replaced, on the same scale, the background ethical code of judeo-christianity in the west, it has now become impossible to appear as controversial to as many people in one fell swoop as it used to be.
Jesus is a soft touch. Controversy is now Allah in compromising situations but no band has really had the grapes to take it on.
Quote from: Juggz on November 26, 2018, 07:06:29 PM
Jesus is a soft touch. Controversy is now Allah in compromising situations but no band has really had the grapes to take it on.
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Seeds_of_Iblis/3540334240
I liked that Seeds of Iblis album. They were supposedly bullshitting about being located in the Middle East though.
Quote from: M Void on November 24, 2018, 02:41:19 PM
Of course, the album even got pulled from being played on the sound cellar top ten on the John Kenny show on Sunday's back when it came out because of the cover and lyrics. In the internet age when the most extreme images, videos and other content are a click away people are far more desensitised to things that would have been outrageous in the mid to late 90's.
HA!I wrote John Kenny a sweaty complaint letter about this and got an equally sweaty letter back on headed RTE paper!
Haha, I would kill to have seen that. Was there ever a record kept of the Sound Cellar top 10's kept anywhere? Emailed about it a few years ago and never got a reply.
A few hoave made the point that it's fish in a barrell when it comes to Anti Christian Sentiment, and correct Behemoth would've generated more heat a couple of decades earlier. But surely there's other buttons to push. With some genres it's part and parcel of the package, the sense of rebellion is important and part of the attraction for getting into some of this stuff. Part of the reason for picking up a copy of Butchered at Birth as a 14 year old was I knew it would piss my parents off!
Which buttons though? People saying that anti-Muslim metal would generate as much controversy today as (explicitly or implicitly) anti-Christian metal did back in the 80s and 90s, but that couldn't be any less true. It would only make sense for those of Muslim heritage, otherwise - almost by definition - it's not rebellion, it's antagonism of an either remote or minority group. Having a pop at Jesus and company back in the day was David versus Goliath. Goliath has fallen and - as far as I can see - not been replaced, though perhaps some much smaller giants have tried.
Well you say that but in the current climate a proper anti Muslim in most countries in Western Europe could lead to possible police investigation and conviction which is more than any anti Christian band would have had to deal with in the same territories.
Quote from: M Void on November 27, 2018, 02:13:06 PM
Well you say that but in the current climate a proper anti Muslim in most countries in Western Europe could lead to possible police investigation and conviction which is more than any anti Christian band would have had to deal with in the same territories.
But it wouldn't resonate with as many people or to the same visceral extent. The average western teenager can't identify with lyrics of rebellion against Mohammed. The whole satanic scare thing resonated long and hard because it was a threat from within, taking tropes and imagery that had been passed down to scare people into submission and worshipping them instead. Sure, there'd be a clamour if a band started cursing Islam in their lyrics, but their sympathetic fan base would be quite a particular bunch.
I'm far past the point of knowing what any teenager can identify with unfortunately but if a metal band appeared now in Western Europe genuinely attacking Islam in the same way black metal bands in the past and currently (I'm talking in lyrics and imagery, not actual physical acts like church burning) they would be treated as pariahs, be listed as a "hate" group and risk serious legal action which is something anti Christian bands in the same regions never had to deal with so I would consider it far more of a controversial thing.
But they would remain totally fringe with respect to mainstream morality. Metal, back in the day, was a strike, from within, right at the very foundational principles of mainstream morality. This hypothetical band would get their 15 minutes. The satanic scare lasted that many years.
Mainstream morality is the reason releasing an album of that type would be met with more than just moral outrage but actual legal ramifications.
Quote from: M Void on November 27, 2018, 02:38:41 PM
Mainstream morality is the reason releasing an album of that type would be met with more than just moral outrage but actual legal ramifications.
Or they will get nominated for a Spellemann award.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3OP-dgNspo
Quote from: M Void on November 27, 2018, 02:38:41 PM
Mainstream morality is the reason releasing an album of that type would be met with more than just moral outrage but actual legal ramifications.
What I'm trying to get across is that measuring controversy should also include a measure of how many people it resonates with in a positive way, how many people it subverts to its cause. Madonna was controversial in a time when hardcore porn was already available on VHS. Why? Because she was a subversive threat to millions. It was the same with metal. Sure, if a band tortured someone and recorded the screams as their vocals, that would be controversial. But who'd be behind them? Who would they get resonating on the same wave as them? They'd be thrown in jail and forgotten about. So, from that point of view, anti-Muslim metal could never be as "controversial" as anti-Christian metal was. Legislation against certain speech against Islam doesn't make Islam the establishment.
I understand what you're saying, just my opinion that it's a much more controversial thing than being anti Christian was in the 90's when I started listening to extreme metal around '94. No issue with you disagreeing with that.
As for that award nomination, I googled and see it was in 2012. Making those statements then and now are two completely different things. Already a different age. No way it would happen now.
Quote from: M Void on November 27, 2018, 02:53:41 PM
As for that award nomination, I googled and see it was in 2012. Making those statements then and now are two completely different things. Already a different age. No way it would happen now.
How far do you want to move the goalposts on this? :D
Turkish black metal band Sarinvomit talking about anti-islamic messages in their lyrics in 2015 ->
"Because it is our originality I mean, if we used inverted crosses and... churches being burned in our covers, it would mean nothing in this country. And since we are from here, since we are against... we are provocative against the traditions of this country and this society. So it is very normal, actually, to me, to use traditional symbols of this country and the religion of this country."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3utTufV5ehs
Don't tell me 3 years ago is a different age as well, the point is - it is happening now and in countries less tolerant. Which touches on BSC point of this usually happening within countries of that tradition (which is what that Turkish band states).
There's no moving goal posts, I just said a band making anti Islamic statements would not be nominated for a Grammy in Norway in 2018.
The Meads of Asphodel always deal with fairly controversial topics. Fantastic band but they never seem to get the attention they deserve.
They had their Jihad album back in 2002 which dealt with a load of stuff in the middle east. - https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/The_Meads_of_Asphodel/Jihad_-_Freezing_Moon/32773
(https://ring.cdandlp.com/forestbird/photo_grande/114661409.jpg)
More recently they've hard their "The Murder of Jesus the Jew" album, dealing with the Jewish roots of Christianity
(https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a2905995207_16.jpg)
And Sonderkommando which is about the holocaust
(https://forum.metalwarfare.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-2FXFsdsnqVE%2FUXOmt2olQtI%2FAAAAAAAABj8%2F4RZKWQcia4c%2Fs1600%2F351953.jpg&hash=f92853a32cbc9ad43363ba1aeeaf00b4e50e05b0)
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on November 27, 2018, 02:25:35 PM
Quote from: M Void on November 27, 2018, 02:13:06 PM
Well you say that but in the current climate a proper anti Muslim in most countries in Western Europe could lead to possible police investigation and conviction which is more than any anti Christian band would have had to deal with in the same territories.
But it wouldn't resonate with as many people or to the same visceral extent. The average western teenager can't identify with lyrics of rebellion against Mohammed. The whole satanic scare thing resonated long and hard because it was a threat from within, taking tropes and imagery that had been passed down to scare people into submission and worshipping them instead. Sure, there'd be a clamour if a band started cursing Islam in their lyrics, but their sympathetic fan base would be quite a particular bunch.
I can't see a metal band poking that hornets nest any day soon. You can get shot for drawing a picture of Mohammed so I dread to think what a whole album would warrant. Allowing such a band to work unimpeded would very much upset the status quo. Protest groups and journalists would start masturbating furiously at the thought of such a band. With regard to tropes and imagery designed to scare people into submission, Islam has Christianity beaten on that front by a country mile.
There are plenty of black metal bands attacking Islam.
Could you name a few for me? Not being smart, just curious.
Off the top of my head, Peste Noire, M8l8th, Circle of Dawn (Their album is incredible) and there's a band whose name are eluding me now and who were overt in their use of imagery. They had a Jihadi on the cover... it'll come to me later, but they sounded decent. Melodic, Greek style stuff... aghhh...
Svolder!
I knew it would come to me after posting haha.
Quote from: hellfire on November 28, 2018, 02:30:43 AM
I can't see a metal band poking that hornets nest any day soon.
You can't see a
popular metal band poking that hornets nest, you should say. And this is the point I'm trying to make: the majority of people don't care about that hornets nest in the way they used to care (for or against) about Christianity in the west. We're all caught up between tolerance of beliefs (good) and condemnation of human rights abuses (bad). With Christianity it was simple: you believe what society wants you to believe or you don't.
And that's precisely why you've never heard of the bands who attack Islam.
In general, I can't help but think the need for metal to be controversial or "shocking" in some way is kind of unnecessary, and fairly childish. What does it actually do to enhance the music? I mean sure, when I was 15 the oul' church burning was exciting to my then easily impressionable teenage self but at this point? I'm a grown fucking adult. But a bunch of lads in costumes (or remaining anonymous) ranting about hating religion/races/life to a niche audience seems kinda screaming into the void. Like, how do people take Profanatica seriously in 2018 for example?
The "controversy" in metal really nowadays seems to be the stuff people come out with on messages boards. Which is utterly superflous.
Yeah but that's coming from the point of view of a jaded rocker who has seen every 'shocking' development come and go, be exciting/ unnerving and then become passé. I imagine any non- metaller who was introduced to NSBM or brutal death metal or satanic black metal would still find it shocking. Especially these days actually, where everything in mainstream entertainment has become so fucking bland and safe.
Also, I find the more black metal becomes wimpified by tree huggers and anarchists, the more I find myself attracted to the harsher, less PC themes. Not exclusively, of course, but l want bands that have some bite about them. And yeah, the masked anonymous trick is done to death. Give me spikes and bad corpse paint, haha.
I'd imagine at this point in culture the Satanic/Occult thing is shocking no-one really, and it seems silly or theatrical to outsiders. It's been part of rock music for as long as rock music has been a thing. As for the "jaded rocker"..yeah, I guess you have a point maybe, I do find metal imagery overwhelmingly stale and clicheed particularly in terms of black/death/doom metal. Do love an oul' wander round a graveyard at the same time though, hah! I'd say the most "controversial" thing a metal band in the underground could do, realistically, is to move away from traditional imagery/aesthetics but then that comes with a whole heap of whining from the meat n'potatoes crowd (look at Deafheaven for example. whatever about their aesthetic their big problem is that their music fucking sucks)
An aside rather than an attack on you here Andy - I'm continuously amused by people who complain about lefty anarcho types hijacking Black metal, when that's totally a reaction to NSBM anyway. You can thank the NSBM bands for the influx of them funnily enough. I've made my "both sides can fuck off" argument enough though so I won't continue it here. Don't think it's any great secret that I'm not an enormous fan of black metal in general though.
Aye, can't really argue with that but something that popped into my mind was that growing up in the 90s all we had was magazines to read the interviews with these people and being young lads we took it all on face value. It was easier to be shocked. We were mostly all dragged to mass every Sunday but listening to Deicide and reading satanic interviews. It gave us the willies. The internet (as good as it is) has robbed us of our innocence in many ways. I don't mind the theatrical side of metal at all- I love it in many instances and think it can really add to a live show or photo shoot. Ultimately good music wins but man, give me some hate!
Also, anyone who doesn't enjoy visiting graveyards is clearly an enemy of heavy metal and should be kept at arm's length.
I think overfamiliarity with the musicians definitely dilutes any power they have to genuinely shock. When all you knew of a band was a grainy photo and what you read in an interview, you were more likely to believe there was a proper maniac at work. When you now know that, Monday to Friday, Stefan and Jens spend their days asking Subway customers what bread they want, it diminishes the magic when they put on the makeup and bullet belts. So much of it now is just tired old cliches and poses being repeated ad nauseum. I remember the first time I saw the pic of Stephen Priestly on the back of Morbid Tales in the 80's, where he's wielding a hatchet and you can't see his face, it really made an impression. It looked fucking crazy. When you see some young lad copy that pose now, it's hard to associate any menace to it. It has been done already so many times. A little creativity would go a long way in generating controvery.
Good thread. Yeah the internet age has sucked a lot of the 'danger' out of everything. When you can see every kind of fucked up shit online - murders, suicides, accidents, war, diasasters, weird porn etc etc there's really nothing left to shock younger people.
As touched on though , the only thing sacred now to society is humanity itself. Equality and all that garbage. But black metal has been doing a decent turn at misanthropy for decades now. The NS fringe is probably the last bastion of genuine hatred and intolerance.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on November 28, 2018, 02:54:43 AM
Off the top of my head, Peste Noire, M8l8th, Circle of Dawn (Their album is incredible) and there's a band whose name are eluding me now and who were overt in their use of imagery. They had a Jihadi on the cover... it'll come to me later, but they sounded decent. Melodic, Greek style stuff... aghhh...
I listen to a bit of Peste Noire and M8lth, but the lyrics escape me for obvious reasons. M8lth are from Russia where that shit is practically encouraged. Circle of Dawn seems to have been a fairly minor release (300 copies). That Svolder band seem to release most of their stuff digitally. As compared to the rampaging hordes of anti Christian bands they are a footnote.
Shepard was right I should have said a popular band. I think Taake were the only big name act to stick their neck out. Between that and the swastica incident some years back made their recent touring efforts chaotic in terms of protests and cancellations.
It's not just Islam. There are several societal red lines now which would all cause a genuine stir if challenged. As Jamie said, there is no real need for bands to be controversial anymore. However, if you are trying to portray your band as edgy don't bother with Jesus, it's been done and nobody cares about him now.
Quote from: Juggz on November 28, 2018, 01:20:09 PM
I remember the first time I saw the pic of Stephen Priestly on the back of Morbid Tales in the 80's, where he's wielding a hatchet and you can't see his face, it really made an impression. It looked fucking crazy. When you see some young lad copy that pose now, it's hard to associate any menace to it. It has been done already so many times.
Abso-fuckin'-loutley. I'm dangerously close to wandering off topic here but youth and time has a lot to do with the impact metal has on us all - I'm guessing you and I are of a similar vintage Juggz, and I think the controversy/shock with many of these bands lay with the power of the new. Who looked or sounded like Celtic Frost really back then? They were groundbreaking, and genuinely frightening as a result to a bunch of us who really were essentially just children at the time.
Nowadays if I see a bunch of dudes dressed like that I just think of the same way you think of a plumber putting on overalls - it's a uniform and nowt else. Same could be said when things got a bit more extreme in the 90s, not just in Norway but with the likes of David Vincent or Pete Helmkamp getting philosophical to varying degrees, as a teen I thought they were espousing some amazing ideal, now I just think they're self important, pretentious goons.
Sketchy lyrics aside the real reason I think metal has lost the power to shock - particularly underground metal - is because there's little really new about it, little in the way of radical (I don't mean in the political sense). I really like metal but I don't engage with or relate to it at this point in any way beyond as a bunch of sounds I like, so wether it's "controversial" or not I'm not sure is relevant to me personally as I don't really take it particularly seriously. BUT, I do think here's very little challenging about it if we're honest. NSBM isn't challenging really in anyway, bar to maybe music websites or the Antifa (note I'm not saying punk here, a quick view on some punk forums would reveal quite a lot of the punks actually like sketchy BM/power electronics/whatever, ironically or not) - it's dull music by and for retards. A band like Watain, though I'm not a fan, are probably more likely to offend or shock the mainstream than M8l8th precisely because they get coverage in more mainstream press where younger, more impressionable kids have access to them.
Popularity puts you in a position to offend and provoke the masses. Releasing a record on some Finnish Black Metal tape label limited to 88 copies doesn't.
Also Peste Noire are fucking hilarious.
Some great points raised lads for sure but I can't agree with
Quoteand fairly childish
Sometimes I like to feel unsettled or have my own values challenged when I listen to something. Fully agree that with what's out there on the net that perhaps there is some desensitisation but I still think it's possible. Movies are still being made that have the power to achieve this so why not in music?
I would've never gone near any NSBM in the past but have opened up to listening to early Graveland recently, safe to say the lyrical content would be as far away from my own beliefs and morals as possible but found the music worked and I was left with that unsettling feeling. So I can't say that in itself is childish. I'd agree that controversy for controversy's sake is, like any of the shit gore bands on sevared for example - cringe inducing.
id be of the same mindset of pentagrimes. i couldnt care less about anything else bands do, just the music. if a bands theatrical live its great buts thats about as much as i buy into the imagery.
Trying to think what the last metal band that made me feel unsettled was. The only thing that comes to mind in the last decade or so are Khanate and the last Reverorum ib Malacht.
Maybe it's just me but I can't comprehend how any adult, who hasn't led a completely sheltered life, could possibly be shocked by anything in music these days. I'm old enough to remember John Kenny refusing to play Once Upon the Cross on the metal show, but I think I was about 14 at the time, and still getting dragged reluctantly to Mass every Sunday by my parents. So yeah, in that context, Decide were certainly controversial at the time. I can even remember the TD Jim Kemmy calling for Symphonies of Sickness to be banned because of the artwork. So my perception at the time was that Carcass were a controversial band, rather than taking the artwork in the context of them being vegetarians etc. Again, to go back to more innocent times...im sure many here can recall a time when Guns N Roses were labelled (probably self-professed, but whatever) as the most Dangerous Band in the World. These days, I keep seeing pics on my facebook feed of adults bringing their kids to G'N'R gigs, various bits of merchandise like Appetite for Destruction babygrows, etc. All about as dangerous as your average Ikea advertisement.
I suppose we've seen it all at this stage. As I said earlier, unless you've led a completely sheltered existence, how could anything shock you in music. I've worked nearly ten years in the emergency services so I would think I'm fairly immune to most stuff these days, but even the average person who doesn't encounter that kind of thing in their day to day life, has at one stage or another, been involved in or witness to some kind of tragic accident, assault or illness.
I'm probably losing my train of thought at this stage, so I suppose what I'm saying is there is now very little scope to shock through the medium of music, or art in general. Even stuff like goregrind, which is so deliberately over the top, can only strive to offend rather than shock, and even at that, I'm not so sure that it even manages that.
Only tangentially metal really (you'll see once you get to the latter half where Nastrond, Thy Sinister Flame and MMP come into it), but definitely related to Ireland given some of the people included, and definitely related to the occult/ns angle and we've been discussing here I guess, interesting article from The Quietus:
http://thequietus.com/articles/25716-ona-fascism-nazis-folk-horror-underground-occult
Also saw some kind of statement from your man Antichrist Kramer online there trying to clarify that he and Nyaeogtheblisz/Hellvetron aren't racist there over the last few days, can't find the link right now. the general gist of it is "I have friends who are Mexican so I'm grand"
I was reading a thread about it on NWN. The statement is by nyogthaeblisz who are also Hellvetron and are Mexican. Silly and funny statement though.
Ah, apologies, wherever I read it attributed it to AK.
It reads a lot like it is as they spend the majority of it talking about him so I'm sure he had some input.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on November 25, 2018, 06:53:48 AM
Been listening to a bit of new M8l8th recently,
Do we have a "shit band names" thread here yet? Fucking hell.
Some of the letters were originally Cyrillic characters. I don't know whether that makes it better or worse.
M8l8th is up there in the crappy band names department.
Quote from: hellfire on March 30, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
M8l8th is up there in the crappy band names department.
And crappy music department. Even Famine doing guest vocals couldn't save them.
Saw KPN mentioned earlier as an anti Islamic band they never mention Islam in their lyrics?
He's pretty much anti everything, so yeah. Have no clue what their lyrics mean so I couldn't say if it's in there.
Great singer that he was, Dio didn't write a single cohesive lyric in his life. He might as well have been scatting (not that kind) he made that little sense.
Quote from: hellfire on March 31, 2019, 12:30:34 AM
He's pretty much anti everything, so yeah. Have no clue what their lyrics mean so I couldn't say if it's in there.
:laugh: He's a mad man. I don't doubt that he hates Islam just as much as he hates Christianity plenty of bands feel the same way but won't talk about it because it's acceptable even encouraged to hate one and at the same time you can't say anything negative about the other. He doesn't specifically mention Islam in any of his lyrics. He is in my opinion the most original person currently making this kind of music.
Original or daft? I guess the two don't have to be mutually exclusive :abbath:. Love his music, not arsed learning French to find out what he is talking about.
There's plenty of allusions to Arab and Maghreb culture in France in the lyrics, from what I remember. He's a savage lyricist and vocalist, gotta be said.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on November 28, 2018, 02:54:43 AM
Off the top of my head, Peste Noire, M8l8th, Circle of Dawn (Their album is incredible) and there's a band whose name are eluding me now and who were overt in their use of imagery. They had a Jihadi on the cover... it'll come to me later, but they sounded decent. Melodic, Greek style stuff... aghhh...
You likely know more about them than me, but I'm fairly sure Circle of Dawn's lyrics are more yobbish racial slurs about brown-skinned people rather than anything coherently attack Islam.
They have a song called Not Muslim which seems fairly self explanatory. I haven't read their lyrics. I have the album on CD and there are some lyrics printed on the inlay but they are too small for the human eye. I love the music and aggressive, yobbish nature of the delivery so I'm probably better off not reading the lyrics :laugh:
https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/are-we-really-touring-destroyer-666-australia/
Destroyer 666 Australian tour cancelled due to hurt feelings seemingly. The whole article reeks of hysteria that should be funny but instead is actually quite scary. Full retard stuff.
Mad craic indeed. How many hundreds of gigs have D666 played all over the world over the past two and a half decades? How many have turned into some sort of Neo Nazi rally? It's a band playing music in a room full of people who like music. That's what it boils down to. I wonder when venues are going to start showing a bit of backbone, hiring a couple of extra security staff and simply alerting the cops to any online threats from this ridiculous organisation (Antifa). Or do we just accept that a few extremists on the far left are now responsible for shaping art and culture into the future? No thanks.
Trying to draw a comparison between the Christchurch killings and music...wow
Something similar happened a while back with Tyr, a load of their concerts got cancelled because some people kicked up a stink about Faroese whaling
https://freemuse.org/news/germanynetherlands-faroese-metal-band-shows-cancelled-over-whaling/
Quote from: Trev on April 25, 2019, 09:06:46 AM
Something similar happened a while back with Tyr, a load of their concerts got cancelled because some people kicked up a stink about Faroese whaling
https://freemuse.org/news/germanynetherlands-faroese-metal-band-shows-cancelled-over-whaling/
Well... one big difference is the tone with which Heri Joensen responded:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1206544669410045
K.K. has courted this kind of controversy explicitly and repeatedly through his public persona (from many accounts, he's not quite the same in private). So while not agreeing with "censoring" bands, doesn't he also just have to suck it up and roll with it when someone decides to dig up one of the countless comments he's come out with, any one of which would have had Milo no-platformed, Alex Jones banned from social media, etc., etc. Another way to look at it is that he's certainly obliging the band to be truly underground, which is supposedly what everyone wants!
QuoteI wonder when venues are going to start showing a bit of backbone
You haven't considered the possibility that management at the venues might themselves be in disagreement, y'know. Antifa are presumably involved, but in the current climate you don't need to go as extreme as antifa to find people who have their backs up against anti-muslim, anti-immigrant rhetoric. So if there's a video online of K.K. expressing just this, then unless he feels like rolling back on it publicly, well...whaddya gonna do? Would you be so surprised if in the same video he was talking about "fucking Jews", and it being time for "anti-Jewish" metal? In the world we live in, that's the way of things, like it or not, you have to align your actions to it or face the consequences, but there's nothing surprising about it.
That's certainly something I've considered too. KK is playing into the hands of Antifa (That is essentially who we are talking about as they are the ones protesting metal gigs). His public rhetoric is, on one hand fighting against that "anti-free speech" culture, but on the other hand he is engaging them on the terms they are setting. A cleverer tactic, if you truly want to be a touring band who have the freedom to go anywhere, would be to not give them the ammo they need. But that doesn't seem to be in the nature of his character. I think he thrives on the adversity, so fair enough. I do still believe that venues need to stand up to threats from bullshit organisations as it only serves to validate such tactics.
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that with the nature of the publicly available "ammo", threats aren't even necessarily needed. With that particular video of KK, for many people including management of venues, simply having it pointed out to them would be enough for them to say, based purely on their own convictions; we don't want that guy here, certainly not now.
I would imagine the ethics of a businessman would generally come second to making money. Imagine, for example, Bodycount were to have a gig in Voodoo and some small far right group decided that their lyrics to Cop Killler are dangerous and an incitement to hatred and violence. Would any action be taken? Or would the moral ground shift and perspective would magically be brought into the discussion because the far right are popularly conceived to be bad but the far left, despite appearing to be a mirror of the far right in their tactics, are at least in theory on the right side of the debate? Essentially it's down to optics and outside pressure, not the ethics of venue owners, although they'll happily play that card to remain in the good books.
Edit. And further to that, if they decided to engage their critical faculties, they might consider the numerous metal gigs that they have previously hosted, consider that this gig will likely attract the same small devout metal crowd as ever and it will most likely be business as usual; the only viable threat to anyone's safety coming instead from the supposed moral arbiters. Extra security will cover all eventualities.
It's not about killing cops though. It's about telling Muslim immigrants to fuck off. Sure it's about optics, but part of those optics is, "Do we want our venue to be associated with this video or not?" That goes far beyond, "Will there be trouble at the gig or not?", which you are trying to reduce it to by saying extra security would cover it. You'd need extra security and a damn good PR firm.
What's about telling Muslim migrants to fuck off?? A Destroyer gig? Go see them live sometime and record the bit where that happens! You're conflating some of KK's admittedly crude and un-PC onstage banter with the inner workings of the collective Antifa imagination, not realty.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on April 25, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
What's about telling Muslim migrants to fuck off?? A Destroyer gig? Go see them live sometime and record the bit where that happens! You're conflating some of KK's admittedly crude and un-PC onstage banter with the inner workings of the collective Antifa imagination, not realty.
Sorry, I thought we were working from the same material here. From the Tone Deaf article:
Quote"This one's for all the Muslim immigrants that are invading. They're invited to invade our fucking continents. Fuck you Allah! Yeah everyone's busy being anti-Christian... fuck being anti-Christian, let's be fucking anti-Muslim for once!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=97tXzR4n7HE
You can argue it's not what he meant, but it requires no antifa-style distortion to take that statement to mean "fuck off Muslim immigrants".
Actually, show that to anyone who isn't - for whatever reason - an apologist of such things, and that's precisely what the average person would tell you his message there was, no?
I've seen them live, it was great, they're a fucking great band. But KK is a fucking idiot.
You yourself have been a metal head for most of your existence and have been to many underground metal gigs. Have you experienced this so called right wing rallying of the troops at any of those events? I've been going to metal gigs for 27 years, I've yet to witness it. Have I heard some moronic stage banter? Very occasionally. Has it ever resulted in the crowd putting their pints down and lynching any person or any group? Not even once. A gig is a gig. Some musicians are wise, some are dense fucks. Either way, bar inciting a bit of headbanging I've yet to witness any sort of revolution. Sure I've been to many punk gigs that are far more evangelical in their message, and I've never witnessed them dropping their pints and going out to burn down McDonalds or whatever... a gig is a gig.
I get and agree with all that. And I know that antifa-style tactics were behind the publishing of the article and the spreading of the video. I'm just saying that, now that the video is out there, you can't be surprised at venues stepping away from an association with it in this day and age.
Anyway, I'm sure the man himself will have some well-considered words to share on the matter soon enough.
QuoteValhalla Touring's Ben Mulchin said he made the decision to cancel the band's New Zealand shows last week. His Australian counterpart, tour promoter Soundworks, confirmed their Australasian tour was cancelled on Wednesday.
Mulchin said when he saw the video of Warslut, he knew he had to cancel the tour. "It was not good timing."
But, he said he would host the band again. The video that ended the tour was filmed in 2012, and Valhalla Touring hosted the band in 2016.
When they were last here, Mulchin said he spent a few days with the band and thought Warslut was not racist but was "an egg".
"He's a bit of an egg when he's drunk. He's an egg most of the time, actually. I don't think he's a racist, but he has said racist things," the promoter said.
Asked if he would host the band again, Mulchin said he would consider bringing them back but not within the next few years.
"The frontman has done a series of interviews saying he doesn't have hate for anyone but he is labelled and has said some dumb things," he said.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/112257625/destroyer-666-cancel-tour-after-racist-past-unearthed?fbclid=IwAR25M3ZsDXjVEyFuYIGPSTVH42JhPAz_fmB4N5jX7KL4s49bXeWkYpnfaio
:laugh:
I'm standing up for him. A bit. But not really. But I am. Kind of.... Fuck sake. Spine up, Kunt!!!
So KK is an "egg", so what? If you take offense or disagree with his words thats cool, don't support the band. Why don't they discuss their issues like grown ups instead of throwing their toys out of the pram? De-platforming anyone whos opinions you disagree with is moronic and as immature as anything Warslut has uttered.
Quote from: Weltenfeind on April 25, 2019, 01:22:42 PM
De-platforming anyone whos opinions you disagree with is moronic and as immature as anything Warslut has uttered.
Absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately, that just places them at an immaturity stalemate though.
I was at that DeathKult gig and remember that bit of a rant really well. Precisely because it stood out, wasn't normal, wasn't a routine part of some imaginary right wing rally. Sure there were a few drunken roars from the crowd, same as any response to mid set shite talk but I remember thinking the band/Shrapnel looked a little bit uneasy during it. I've not watched the video since so could be wrong.
Ultimate point being the same as Mclove- that kind of thing is an anomaly and not part of a routine rightwingblackmetal rally. 😂
At what point will he be deemed to have paid for his crime? What is the appropriate sentence for his transgression? Is seven years not long enough?
Mgla gig in Munich the latest to be cancelled. Accusations against them seem to be based on their having releases on Northern Heritage, and M having put out a song called judenfrei on a leichenhalle release from nearly 20 years ago. Deus Mortem were meant to be support and it's their links to Infernal War, Thunderbolt and Honour that seem to be soiling some undies. Bah!
Bölzer are going to headline the D666 shows it seems. Hopefully nobody googles them. I know the tattoo controversy is well trodden ground at this point but it may be news to some of these gig cancelling types.
Quote from: Scáthach on April 28, 2019, 01:21:28 AM
Mgla gig in Munich the latest to be cancelled. Accusations against them seem to be based on their having releases on Northern Heritage, and M having put out a song called judenfrei on a leichenhalle release from nearly 20 years ago. Deus Mortem were meant to be support and it's their links to Infernal War, Thunderbolt and Honour that seem to be soiling some undies. Bah!
Berlin gig cancelled too. This shit is getting out of hand. Vague accusations from anonymous sources are costing bands. It's not like most underground metal bands make a fortune either. At least KK actually said something to upset whiny fuckers, not that I agree with the D666 cancellation either. The associations they try to make to Nazi or other activity are pretty farcical at best. If you showed these lunatics an ink blot they would see a swastika and wreck the doctors office. Sad that in this day and age everyone has to run at the pace of the slowest kid in the class. The most sensitive, warped or dim control the pace.
Yeah, Berlin was cancelled with 5 hours notice. Apparently bands and crews had already arrived at the venue. This guilt by association crap is a bit rich, especially in Germany. And yeah a bit of anonymous badly researched mud slinging seems to be all it takes, absolute nonsense. Can we just go back to punks and metallers tearing strips out of each other outside gigs. Much more civilised.
I'm all for that lol. Hell I'd probably go to more shows. It seems Mgla are going to set a solicitor on all the publications who disseminated this shit. Excellent response.
Quote from: hellfire on April 28, 2019, 08:45:19 PM
I'm all for that lol. Hell I'd probably go to more shows. It seems Mgla are going to set a solicitor on all the publications who disseminated this shit. Excellent response.
Yeah, saw that. Good on them.
Always a good time to remember how a true "left" intellectual would tackle such things;
https://youtu.be/zz6Vbl-TWgI
Quote from: hellfire on April 28, 2019, 08:45:19 PM
I'm all for that lol. Hell I'd probably go to more shows. It seems Mgla are going to set a solicitor on all the publications who disseminated this shit. Excellent response.
I know it's all they can do but it won't do any good these people have the politicians on their side. I was at Messe Des Mortes in Montreal 2 years ago when the Graveland incident happened Canadian politicians joined Antifa to protest and stood outside with them as they tried to rush the doors and threw smoke bombs into the venue. Antifa are funded by the very higher ups they claim so strongly to be against.
Funny enough Mgla played the night before with no issue so they must not have been on the communist radar at that time.
We need more fuck you approaches like Horna did for the recent US tour.
I've only been going to the more underground shows here for the last 5 years or so, but has there ever been any hassle from the outside communities about "controversial" type bands playing here? As far as I've seen, we don't get a lot of them here anyway, at least being promoted...
I wasn't at it but I remember Antifa had something to do with disrupting a Negura Bunget gig in Fibbers? And a Grand Belials Key gig in th Lower Deck got cancelled in the 2000s.
These Antifa groups are sticking the noses in too, getting things wrong and mistaking bands for things they're not.
Who do you think it was sticking their noses in that time? Antifa thicks.
Quote from: mickO))) on April 28, 2019, 11:15:40 PM
Antifa are funded by the very higher ups they claim so strongly to be against.
Largely uninterested in this debate but I'm curious, do you have proof of this?
I have absolutely no time for Antifa so I wouldn't normally be springing to their defence, but to echo the last post, I'd imagine that's a fairly watery claim. Antifa aren't really one cohesive entity I would have thought, more a loose affiliation of various left-wing groups of varying degrees of militancy, so the notion that they, as a single entity, are in receipt of any funding is a bit far fetched.
No idea about where they get their funding from but they seem to be more well organised than a scattered group of variously militant lefties. These are far left radicals who are all singing from the same hymn sheet and it appears that any dissent is met with the cry of NAZI (possibly the single most meaningless word in 2019), misogynist, transphobe etc. etc. nonsensical, hysterical accusation etc etc... They are the self appointed moral police, but I thought ACAB?!... Total fucking morons who in their quest to make everyone more 'open minded' have become the most obscene and ludicrous, closed minded tyrants themselves. Zero tolerance for the cunts.
Not sure that my observation above necessarily belongs in the 'controversial' thread though :laugh:
You know your group's a bit shit when the toughest ones in it are the lesbians.
:abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath:
Quote from: Pentagrimes on May 09, 2019, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: mickO))) on April 28, 2019, 11:15:40 PM
Antifa are funded by the very higher ups they claim so strongly to be against.
Largely uninterested in this debate but I'm curious, do you have proof of this?
What would you like original bank transfer statements?
Deathspell Omega are now the latest target of the righteous crusaders which is very funny because with them not playing live `I wonder what exactly they plan on doing.
Quote from: mickO))) on May 10, 2019, 02:53:57 AM
Quote from: Pentagrimes on May 09, 2019, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: mickO))) on April 28, 2019, 11:15:40 PM
Antifa are funded by the very higher ups they claim so strongly to be against.
Largely uninterested in this debate but I'm curious, do you have proof of this?
What would you like original bank transfer statements?
Deathspell Omega are now the latest target of the righteous crusaders which is very funny because with them not playing live `I wonder what exactly they plan on doing.
Probably stick their used Tampax to music shop windows who sell their records.
Although I dunno what shenanigans their female members might get up to.