Controversy In Metal?

[hellfire]

Well you say that but in the current climate a proper anti Muslim in most countries in Western Europe could lead to possible police investigation and conviction which is more than any anti Christian band would have had to deal with in the same territories.

But it wouldn't resonate with as many people or to the same visceral extent. The average western teenager can't identify with lyrics of rebellion against Mohammed. The whole satanic scare thing resonated long and hard because it was a threat from within, taking tropes and imagery that had been passed down to scare people into submission and worshipping them instead. Sure, there'd be a clamour if a band started cursing Islam in their lyrics, but their sympathetic fan base would be quite a particular bunch.

I can't see a metal  band poking that hornets nest any day soon. You can get shot for drawing a picture of  Mohammed so I dread to think what a whole album would warrant. Allowing such a band to work unimpeded would very much upset the status quo.  Protest groups  and journalists would start masturbating furiously at the thought of such a band.  With regard to tropes and imagery designed to scare people into submission,  Islam has Christianity beaten on that front by a country mile.

[Eoin McLove]

There are plenty of black metal bands attacking Islam.

[hellfire]

Could you name a few for me? Not being smart, just curious.

[Eoin McLove]

Off the top of my head,  Peste Noire, M8l8th, Circle of Dawn (Their album is incredible) and there's a band whose name are eluding me now and who were overt in their use of imagery.  They had a Jihadi on the cover... it'll come to me later,  but they sounded decent.  Melodic,  Greek style stuff... aghhh...

[Eoin McLove]

Svolder!

I knew it would come to me after posting haha.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I can't see a metal  band poking that hornets nest any day soon.

You can't see a popular metal band poking that hornets nest, you should say. And this is the point I'm trying to make: the majority of people don't care about that hornets nest in the way they used to care (for or against) about Christianity in the west. We're all caught up between tolerance of beliefs (good) and condemnation of human rights abuses (bad). With Christianity it was simple: you believe what society wants you to believe or you don't.

And that's precisely why you've never heard of the bands who attack Islam.

[Pentagrimes]

In general, I can't help but think the need for metal to be controversial or "shocking"  in some way is kind of unnecessary, and fairly childish. What does it actually do to enhance the music? I mean sure, when I was 15 the oul' church burning was exciting to my then easily impressionable teenage self but at this point? I'm a grown fucking adult. But a bunch of lads in costumes (or remaining anonymous) ranting about hating religion/races/life to a niche audience seems kinda screaming into the void. Like, how do people take Profanatica seriously in 2018 for example?

The "controversy" in metal really nowadays seems to be the stuff people come out with on messages boards. Which is utterly superflous.

[Eoin McLove]

Yeah but that's coming from the point of view of a jaded rocker who has seen every 'shocking' development come and go,  be exciting/ unnerving and then become passé. I imagine any non- metaller who was introduced to NSBM or brutal death metal or satanic black metal would still find it shocking.  Especially these days actually,  where everything in mainstream entertainment has become so fucking bland and safe.

Also,  I find the more black metal becomes wimpified by tree huggers and anarchists,  the more I find myself attracted to the harsher,  less PC themes.  Not exclusively,  of course,  but l want bands that have some bite about them.  And yeah,  the masked anonymous trick is done to death.  Give me spikes and bad corpse paint,  haha.

[Pentagrimes]

I'd imagine at this point in culture the Satanic/Occult thing is shocking no-one really, and it seems silly or theatrical to outsiders. It's been part of rock music for as long as rock music has been a thing. As for the "jaded rocker"..yeah, I guess you have a point maybe, I do find metal imagery overwhelmingly stale and clicheed particularly in terms of black/death/doom metal. Do love an oul' wander round a graveyard at the same time though, hah! I'd say the most "controversial" thing a metal band in the underground could do, realistically, is to move away from traditional  imagery/aesthetics but then that comes with a whole heap of whining from the meat n'potatoes crowd (look at Deafheaven for example. whatever about their aesthetic their big problem is that their music fucking sucks)

An aside rather than an attack on you here Andy - I'm continuously amused by people who complain about lefty anarcho types hijacking Black metal, when that's totally a reaction to NSBM anyway. You can thank the NSBM bands for the influx of them funnily enough. I've made my "both sides can fuck off" argument enough though so I won't continue it here. Don't think it's any great secret that I'm not an enormous fan of black metal in general though.

[Eoin McLove]

Aye, can't really argue with that but something that popped into my mind was that growing up in the 90s all we had was magazines to read the interviews with these people and being young lads we took it all on face value.  It was easier to be shocked.  We were mostly all dragged to mass every Sunday but listening to Deicide and reading satanic interviews. It gave us the willies.  The internet (as good as it is) has robbed us of our innocence in many ways.  I don't mind the theatrical side of metal at all- I love it in many instances and think it can really add to a live show or photo shoot.  Ultimately good music wins but man, give me some hate!

[Eoin McLove]

Also,  anyone who doesn't enjoy visiting graveyards is clearly an enemy of heavy metal and should be kept at arm's length.

[Juggz]

I think overfamiliarity with the musicians definitely dilutes any power they have to genuinely shock. When all you knew of a band was a grainy photo and what you read in an interview, you were more likely to believe there was a proper maniac at work. When you now know that, Monday to Friday, Stefan and Jens spend their days asking Subway customers what bread they want, it diminishes the magic when they put on the makeup and bullet belts. So much of it now is just tired old cliches and poses being repeated ad nauseum. I remember the first time I saw the pic of Stephen Priestly on the back of Morbid Tales in the 80's, where he's wielding a hatchet and you can't see his face, it really made an impression. It looked fucking crazy. When you see some young lad copy that pose now, it's hard to associate any menace to it. It has been done already so many times. A little creativity would go a long way in generating controvery.

[Grim Reality]

Good thread. Yeah the internet age has sucked a lot of the 'danger' out of everything. When you can see every kind of fucked up shit online - murders, suicides, accidents, war, diasasters, weird porn etc etc there's really nothing left to shock younger people.

As touched on though , the only thing sacred now to society is humanity itself. Equality and all that garbage. But black metal has been doing a decent turn at misanthropy for decades now. The NS fringe is probably the last bastion of genuine hatred and intolerance.

[hellfire]

Off the top of my head,  Peste Noire, M8l8th, Circle of Dawn (Their album is incredible) and there's a band whose name are eluding me now and who were overt in their use of imagery.  They had a Jihadi on the cover... it'll come to me later,  but they sounded decent.  Melodic,  Greek style stuff... aghhh...

I listen to a bit of Peste Noire and M8lth, but the lyrics escape me for obvious reasons.  M8lth are from Russia where that shit is practically encouraged. Circle of Dawn seems to have been a fairly minor release (300 copies).   That Svolder band seem to release most of their stuff digitally.  As compared to the rampaging hordes of  anti Christian bands they are a footnote.

Shepard was right I should have said a popular band. I think Taake were the only big name act to stick their neck out. Between that and the swastica incident some years back made their recent touring efforts chaotic in terms of protests and cancellations.

It's not just Islam. There are several societal red lines now which would all cause a genuine stir if challenged. As Jamie said, there is no real need for bands to be controversial anymore. However, if you are trying to portray your band as edgy don't bother with Jesus, it's been done and nobody cares about him now.

[Pentagrimes]

I remember the first time I saw the pic of Stephen Priestly on the back of Morbid Tales in the 80's, where he's wielding a hatchet and you can't see his face, it really made an impression. It looked fucking crazy. When you see some young lad copy that pose now, it's hard to associate any menace to it. It has been done already so many times.

Abso-fuckin'-loutley. I'm dangerously close to wandering off topic here but youth and time has a lot to do with the impact metal has on us all - I'm guessing you and I are of a similar vintage Juggz, and I think the controversy/shock with many of these bands lay with the power of the new. Who looked or sounded like Celtic Frost really back then? They were groundbreaking, and genuinely frightening as a result to a bunch of us who really were essentially just children at the time.

Nowadays if I see a bunch of dudes dressed like that I just think of the same way you think of a plumber putting on overalls - it's a uniform and nowt else. Same could be said when things got a bit more extreme in the 90s, not just in Norway but with the likes of David Vincent or Pete Helmkamp getting philosophical to varying degrees, as a teen I thought they were espousing some amazing ideal, now I just think they're self important, pretentious goons.

Sketchy lyrics aside the real reason I think metal has lost the power to shock - particularly underground metal - is because there's little really new about it, little in the way of radical (I don't mean in the political sense). I really like metal but I don't engage with or relate to it at this point in any way beyond as a bunch of sounds I like, so wether it's "controversial" or not I'm not sure is relevant to me personally as I don't really take it particularly seriously. BUT, I do think here's very little challenging about it if we're honest. NSBM isn't challenging really in anyway, bar to maybe music websites or the Antifa (note I'm not saying punk here, a quick view on some punk forums would reveal quite a lot of the punks actually like sketchy BM/power electronics/whatever, ironically or not) - it's dull music by and for retards. A band like Watain, though I'm not a fan, are probably more likely to offend or shock the mainstream than M8l8th precisely because they get coverage in more mainstream press where younger, more impressionable kids have access to them.


Popularity puts you in a position to offend and provoke the masses. Releasing a record on some Finnish Black Metal tape label limited to 88 copies doesn't.

Also Peste Noire are fucking hilarious.