https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55889002
Of course, I'll never forget him supporting Maiden at the RDS and somebody hit him in the face with a shoe. Certainly woke him up a bit.
Quote from: Kunt 4 Life on February 01, 2021, 10:53:47 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55889002
Of course, I'll never forget him supporting Maiden at the RDS and somebody hit him in the face with a shoe. Certainly woke him up a bit.
Unsurprising really as he has been a mess for years.
Love portrait of an American family and Antichrist superstar. Everything he released afterwards is utter garbage.
Whoever got him to support Iron Maiden deserves a shoe in the face themselves and is probably the same promoter who booked linken park to support metallica. Know your fucking audience ffs.
Disposable Teens
Quote from: Blackout on February 01, 2021, 11:03:11 PM
Love portrait of an American family and Antichrist superstar. Everything he released afterwards is utter garbage.
I am in total agreement. Great albums.
Twiggy had similar accusations or charges leveled at him as well. What a pair of cunts.
I usually have no overt investment or personal reaction to these kind of stories - and famed prick/Johnny Depp's drinking buddy Marilyn Manson being ousted in this fashion is hardly surprise of the century - but both me and my better half remained huge fans of his work and definitely ignored the writing that's always been on that particular wall because of the frequent charm and wit of his public persona, so it definitely stung a bit this morning.
Just serves as another reminder not to invest too much in these sorts of individuals. Not that I've done that for awhile anyway, but in my youth I was definitely someone who latched on to both art and artist. Posters on the walls, dad asking questions etc. I used to internalise it as such a huge tragedy and failing of youth and culture that we don't really have proper rock stars anymore. Who needs 'em, though?
My favourite stuff is actually right out of the gates. That creepy, Scooby Doo punk shit they had in the Spooky Kids days before he got notions about himself. I'd love to have seen the original band before they were signed.
Horrible cunt, though. The way you've billed him in the thread title has me in stitches, by the way.
I had to take down a Manson poster for a while around Columbine. Haha. Even at 13 I was slightly embarrassed by him anyway but the tunes made up for it.
I think we all knew he was a bit of a cunt now to be fair.
Mechanical Animals is the album I'd go back to the odd time I'd take it into the head to listen to him now.
Christ above. I often do wonder what the fuck is wrong with these types of men who have to control. Whats wrong with a simple ould wank. If he is indeed a rapist fuck hopefully enough women come forward and he goes to jail.
Quote from: open face surgery on February 01, 2021, 11:18:04 PM
I had to take down a Manson poster for a while around Columbine. Haha. Even at 13 I was slightly embarrassed by him anyway but the tunes made up for it.
Heh, yeah it's strange thinking back on it - I guess prior generations had their own version of it - but I remember his press was big enough at the time that my first Manson record I bought clandestine and both thought I was a badass for doing so and also hid it from my parents because I was fucking mortified. They couldn't have cared less of course.
Not sure how true it is but I heard a story that when his entourage rocked up to a local bar after him and Dita Von got married in Waterford, they requested it be cleared of the locals only to be told to fuck off.
Was in the castle they got mareied in actually.
Scumbag behaviour. I wonder on some level what these women expected, though. There is clearly an attraction to this dangerous kind of character for certain women, and I can't help but wonder if they actually wanted to get a taste of a bit of S&M and then when they got it they realised they didn't like it? Who knows. It's very possible that he is incredibly charming in the first place, but just a piece of shit in reality.
That crossed my mind too but she was only 19 when they got together and he was twice her age. It couldn't really be said that she should know better.
Yeah that's fair enough. Still can't help but wonder...
Rolling on from the previous couple of posts, that might explain why fellow sexually extreme partner Dita Von Teese never had any "trouble" with him even though, perhaps, he was essentially the same person back then, but with a willing companion. Perhaps he just can't handle being told no, that he saw Woods as a project and lost it whenever she resisted being moulded in the way he wished. Things of this kind happen all the time, and people find it very difficult to extract themselves from these situations, such that it's no surprise that a long standing abusive relationship may have an engagement just before it finally breaks apart at the seams, despite his lawyers pointing to this as some kind of evidence that everything was going fine.
One problem for Manson now, given the kind of character he is, is that, to be honest, I think you'll have no shortage of individuals who will have fantasies they may now decide to express as realities, and it will be next to impossible to tell fact from fiction (saying that, I don't doubt what Woods specifically is saying at all - Dolores wouldn't lie about such a thing!).
With S&M there is a contract between the participants- safe words- so it is supposed to be a controlled and equal environment. With that in mind it out looks like the bowild Mardilyn was not playing by the rules in any way.
I wonder how Kevin from The Wonder Years is taking the news :(
Safe words are tricky with a ball gag in your mouth.
So I've heard.
I am extremely hesitant to participate in any S&M activities with women as it could be used negatively against you if she decides she didn't like it. Probably being over cautious but I've heard enough horror stories to stop me from participating.
He has been dropped by his label
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/marilyn-manson-loma-vista-record-label-drop-abuse-allegations-1122075/
Before this turns into a conversation about the presumptions of consensual S&M or sexual fetishes in a relationship, maybe read the article once again lads.
5 woman all with an array of horrible accounts and most of them claiming they have PTSD and mental health issues afterwards...Throwing plates at the wall, threats to "bash" faces in "with a baseball bat", locked in rooms and being verbally berated for hours, being forced to take drugs, the list goes on. Then one of his own crew backing up claims he was a horrible piece of shit to Wood in the presence of others and then this about another girlfriend: "He would threaten to kill her, cut her up, bury her, embarrass her to the world. Making her cry and fear him made him feel good. He would remind her that she'd be homeless without him and make fun of her learning disabled family member."
There's little to be questioning or wondering about here.
The sad thing there is that an employee of his apparently witnessed all of this and had the power to say or do something but seemingly didn't.
The Pale Emperor is a great album. Most of his performances live were sloppy.
Quote from: Nazgûl on February 02, 2021, 10:35:20 AM
Before this turns into a conversation about the presumptions of consensual S&M or sexual fetishes in a relationship, maybe read the article once again lads.
5 woman all with an array of horrible accounts and most of them claiming they have PTSD and mental health issues afterwards...Throwing plates at the wall, threats to "bash" faces in "with a baseball bat", locked in rooms and being verbally berated for hours, being forced to take drugs, the list goes on. Then one of his own crew backing up claims he was a horrible piece of shit to Wood in the presence of others and then this about another girlfriend: "He would threaten to kill her, cut her up, bury her, embarrass her to the world. Making her cry and fear him made him feel good. He would remind her that she'd be homeless without him and make fun of her learning disabled family member."
There's little to be questioning or wondering about here.
The sad thing there is that an employee of his apparently witnessed all of this and had the power to say or do something but seemingly didn't.
The point I was making is that he puts out that image of being beyond the pale, of being a degenerate and a drug user so that must have been attractive to the women in the first place. It just turns out it was more than theatre. Violence and dominance are a big part of his real life personality.
The question is, why are these cunts able to get away with this shot for so long? Joe soap would be picked up by the police and charged immediately before going to court. This idiot was able to abuse multiple women over a long period of time and suffer no repercussions.
Money and power, baby. Git some!
Interesting that Rose MacGowan has said that he wasn't like that when they were together, considering how outspoken she's been about Weinstein and his ilk. She did add the caveat that that doesn't mean he didn't behave like that to the women in question, and she'a suporting their decisions to come forward. It must be a relatively recent development (I think they were together ~20 years ago?).
I always thought he came across as a fairly down to earth, intelligent person in interviews -- such as the Columbine documentary and other things. A piece of shit though at the end of the day, as it turns out.
What falls directly in line with McLove's response to me above, is that his legal team defended a comment he made about Wood years prior where he said he fantasized about bashing her skull in every day, putting it down to "obviously a theatrical rock star interview promoting a new record, and not a factual account". Obviously not!
I don't know much about Marilyn Manson beyond that I saw him perform "The Dope Show" on TV back in the 90s and bought "Mechanical Animals" off the back of it.
I heard him on Marc Maron's podcast a few years ago and he was loopy from the gatt.
The news report there is fairly grim but, surely given his 20+ year career of Terror Of Middle America guff, we can't say we're too surprised about this.
As McLove mentioned - you have to wonder what some of these women expected when they were getting into a relationship with him.
Women think that they'll be the one to change a man - normally though, the man in question is a fella who lazes about all Saturday in his lounge pants plying FIFA until it's time to shower go to the pub. Rarely is it an absinthe-swilling, cruelty obsessed, self-styled Antichrist.
An absynth-swilling, cruelty obsessed, self-styled Antichrist with a little heart of gold?
Quote from: Carnage on February 02, 2021, 10:57:41 AM
Interesting that Rose MacGowan has said that he wasn't like that when they were together, considering how outspoken she's been about Weinstein and his ilk. She did add the caveat that that doesn't mean he didn't behave like that to the women in question, and she'a suporting their decisions to come forward. It must be a relatively recent development (I think they were together ~20 years ago?).
He went off the rails after his divorce from Dita Von Teese in 2007.
Granted, his rails were always fucking demented anyway, but that's when he proper turned into a gibbering, vodka soaked pus in interviews rather than the clever clogs prick he was before. It was also the period where his albums abandoned all semblance of commentary and cohesive concept and just became murder fetish for awhile.
I'd say that's when this systemic stuff kicked in. Although, again, he was always off his game. His 1997 biography explicitly details groupies being tied up backstage and made to confess to their perversions, prior abuses etc on camera as a sort of ritualistic healing. He's also obviously had an awfully dismissive relationship of the people that have wrote his music over the years, which is why the band lineups used to change so much.
Funny how things come full circle, though. I mean the bible belt weren't completely on the ball about him back in the day but they had a point after all!
Bet they're feeling smug that they were right about him as lots of his fans are now against him too.
I blame it on his grandpa's dried Vaseline encrusted dildos.
Surely this is only tip of the iceberg stuff. I remember reading Hammer of the Gods years ago and wondering why there wasn't more of an uproar over some of the stuff that was going on. Jimmy Page seems to have gotten a bit of a pass over the years, despite having been in a relationship with a 14 year old girl.
Quote from: John Kimble on February 02, 2021, 11:46:27 AM
Surely this is only tip of the iceberg stuff. I remember reading Hammer of the Gods years ago and wondering why there wasn't more of an uproar over some of the stuff that was going on. Jimmy Page seems to have gotten a bit of a pass over the years, despite having been in a relationship with a 14 year old girl.
Exactly....I mean if you went through the 80's alone and the shenanigans...didn't Nikki Sixx have to retract what he said in The Dirt about practically raping someone? Said it was bluster etc etc..
Yup, and very similar to what McLovin was saying, a lot of the time the women had to have known what they were getting themselves into.
Quote from: John Kimble on February 02, 2021, 11:46:27 AM
Surely this is only tip of the iceberg stuff. I remember reading Hammer of the Gods years ago and wondering why there wasn't more of an uproar over some of the stuff that was going on. Jimmy Page seems to have gotten a bit of a pass over the years, despite having been in a relationship with a 14 year old girl.
All of that old brigade were filth. Bowie, Page, Iggy, Elvis the list is endless. There is an argument that the girls knew what they were getting into, even to the extent of Lorrie Maddox releasing at least one book glorifying the time, but they were still children.
I think that the comment about a normal Joe Soap not getting away with this is unfounded. I would say they are more likely to. This woman is in a position that she will be heard and maybe even empowered to a degree by this whereas Jane Doe will grin and bare it.
Quote from: open face surgery on February 02, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Quote from: John Kimble on February 02, 2021, 11:46:27 AM
Surely this is only tip of the iceberg stuff. I remember reading Hammer of the Gods years ago and wondering why there wasn't more of an uproar over some of the stuff that was going on. Jimmy Page seems to have gotten a bit of a pass over the years, despite having been in a relationship with a 14 year old girl.
All of that old brigade were filth. Bowie, Page, Iggy, Elvis the list is endless.
Indeed. Page's 14 year old love interest in question (Lorrie Maddox in fact) was already, at that stage, one of Bowie's exes!
Its fucking sick that these grown men where sleeping with 14year old girls.
Quote from: Blackout on February 02, 2021, 01:17:00 PM
Its fucking sick that these grown men where sleeping with 14year old girls.
Just read there Iggy slept with a 13 year old. For the love of Christ. Scum.
Talk about parents being asleep at the wheel.
Quote from: open face surgery on February 02, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Quote from: John Kimble on February 02, 2021, 11:46:27 AM
Surely this is only tip of the iceberg stuff. I remember reading Hammer of the Gods years ago and wondering why there wasn't more of an uproar over some of the stuff that was going on. Jimmy Page seems to have gotten a bit of a pass over the years, despite having been in a relationship with a 14 year old girl.
I think that the comment about a normal Joe Soap not getting away with this is unfounded. I would say they are more likely to. This woman is in a position that she will be heard and maybe even empowered to a degree by this whereas Jane Doe will grin and bare it.
I think the difference is that so many of them have straight up admitted it, and there was no repercussions, whereas if most Billy Bollocks did there'd be a better chance of at least being dragged to court
Remember reading Anthony Kiedis' autobiography and there was one section where he said he slept with some groupie, then the next day she told him she was fourteen and her dad was a cop, so they'd sex one more time and he got back on the road out for the next gig. You'd imagine coming out with something like that now though would be career suicide
Don't forget, legally speaking, the age for marriage in, say Britain, was only increased to 16 in 1929. Up to that point, it was set as "the legal age for puberty", which was 12 in girls (albeit with mandatory parental consent). The acceleration in evolution of social mores over the last century is something we really don't appreciate enough, in both senses of that word.
Should an artist be dropped by his label because of his personal actions? I'm by no means defending his behaviour now.
It affects the overall brand of the musician and therefore their investment/product.
The lad should be thrown off a tall building if it's all true. I wonder about some o these things and definitely the victim does not in any way deserve to be blamed. However, there seems to be a type of naivety or misplaced trust displayed by young ladies, often of the American variety, in people like this. Is it a result of overpermissive parenting or the opposite? It has certainly been a 'thing' ever since the sixties with the Manson family etc but I can't help.but feel if oul Marilyn came to my door as a 36 year old to take my daughter out, I'd chase him down the road with a hurley and lock her under the stairs until she copped on to herself. Horrible story all the same. If you look at Rose McGowan's history of abuse, he probably seemed like an angel compared to some of what she experienced. I wouldn't put too much faith in it. Completely broken humans.
No wonder all the young ones are gasping for a sex change :laugh:
I thought he was dodgy, even in the Wonder Years.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on February 02, 2021, 02:12:51 PM
No wonder all the young ones are gasping for a sex change :laugh:
Well it is being talked about as one of the possible reasons for the spike in transgernderism etc. This porn riddled approach to relationships must be an absolute nightmare for young women who don't display an 'aggressive/macho' reaction to sex.
They need to man up!
Have any of you got a loan of a couple of Marilyn Manson albums so I can feel properly morally outraged and burn them?
Think him and Jon from Iced Earth could form a band in the slammer?
Quote from: Kunt 4 Life on February 02, 2021, 05:32:26 PM
Think him and Jon from Iced Earth could form a band in the slammer?
Iced Manson or maybe Iced Marilyn has a nice ring to it.
Quote from: Kunt 4 Life on February 02, 2021, 05:32:26 PM
Think him and Jon from Iced Earth could form a band in the slammer?
I would say Jon would knock 7 shades of shite outta that type of cunt.
Or are trump supporters now all woman beaters too?
Haven't read this, but it covers his response:
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2021-02-02/marilyn-manson-evan-rachel-wood-abuse-allegations-instagram
I wonder how did Manson attract all these women in the first place? By his great looks?
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 11:39:33 AM
I wonder how did multi millionaire Manson attract all these women in the first place? By his great looks?
Fixed....
They were fooled by his cleverly cultivate squeaky clean persona.
Quote from: Kurt Cocaine on February 05, 2021, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 11:39:33 AM
I wonder how did multi millionaire Manson attract all these women in the first place? By his great looks?
Fixed....
That is a part of the reason, for sure. But there has to be more to it. I am not following the story with full attention(guess I should have been informed on all the details before opening my mouth, but eh), but think he was doing gross things since early stages in his career, before he became a multimillionaire. What I am aiming at is, I could bet a big part of his women were interested not in just his money, but wanted a rock star experience.
I was reading what Dita Von Teese wrote, how they were in a relationship for like 7 years all together, and were married for a year. Then she divorced him for infidelity and drug abuse. Wha? Does it mean he was faithful and not abusing drugs until they got married :)
The guy is scum, but it's a fucked up world we're living in, and seems like women are drove to scum in big numbers.
Justifying the guy would be the last of my intentions, am just having some free time on my hands and thinking out loud.
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 12:01:16 PM
Quote from: Kurt Cocaine on February 05, 2021, 11:40:18 AM
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 11:39:33 AM
I wonder how did multi millionaire Manson attract all these women in the first place? By his great looks?
Fixed....
That is a part of the reason, for sure. But there has to be more to it. I am not following the story with full attention(guess I should have been informed on all the details before opening my mouth, but eh), but think he was doing gross things since early stages in his career, before he became a multimillionaire. What I am aiming at is, I could bet a big part of his women were interested not in just his money, but wanted a rock star experience.
I was reading what Dita Von Teese wrote, how they were in a relationship for like 7 years all together, and were married for a year. Then she divorced him for infidelity and drug abuse. Wha? Does it mean he was faithful and not abusing drugs until they got married :)
The guy is scum, but it's a fucked up world we're living in, and seems like women are drove to scum in big numbers.
Justifying the guy would be the last of my intentions, am just having some free time on my hands and thinking out loud.
You're exactly right - girls with looks like that could have plenty of multi millionaires (and ones a lot wealthier than MM) so the money can't be the main reason.
Abuse me! abuse me!
RAPE!!!
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 12:01:16 PM
seems like women are drove to scum in big numbers
Totally agree. What we need to do is stop giving women lifts.
Why are people so touchy when it comes to rape?
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 05, 2021, 12:51:45 PM
Quote from: warhead on February 05, 2021, 12:01:16 PM
seems like women are drove to scum in big numbers
Totally agree. What we need to do is stop giving women lifts.
Nobody rides for free.
I notice this group of women (is it OK to say "women"?, I hope I haven't offended any woke cunts) chose not to go to the relevant law enforcement agencies with their complaint re. Mansons' alleged actions, but instead went the social media route, ensuring plenty of publicity and support for themselves without having to answer any pesky questions or produce any evidence to substantiate their allegations.
Now as I've said earlier here, I always thought Manson is a bit of a cunt, but that doesn't mean the man hasn't a right to defend himself against these allegations.
Is a man guilty until proven innocent now if some young one puts up on fucking Twitter or Instagram that he is an abuser of women?
By Christ, tis dangerous times we live in if that's the case.
Von teese has come forward saying nothing ever happened regarding abuse apart from MM abusing drugs.
Quote from: son of the Morrigan on February 05, 2021, 08:43:11 PM
without having to answer any pesky questions
Well, quite. Imagine choosing the easy rather than the known to be traumatic way out of an already traumatic situation! And as I said earlier, I do think Manson is a particularly likely candidate for fantastical accusations (among which I don't count specifically anyone who has made any thus far), but I also understand why women don't jump to go down the "proper" channels. Apart from mediatized cases from the US and elsewhere, I know people who have gone the proper route and deeply regretted it, due to getting no justice at the price of a whole lot of repeatedly revisited trauma. Sound.
A valid point well made.
I am in no way belittling the traumatic effects of abuse on women and I have nothing but contempt for men who mistreat or disrespect women in any way.
I, like yourself, am only too aware of the woeful shortcomings of the legal system in dealing with matters of this nature.
To suggest however, that the solution to these shortcomings is to ignore and circumvent the justice system all-together, in favor of using social media as an unregulated tool of public pillory is shortsighted in the extreme.
Quote from: son of the Morrigan on February 05, 2021, 08:43:11 PM
I notice this group of women (is it OK to say "women"?, I hope I haven't offended any woke cunts) chose not to go to the relevant law enforcement agencies with their complaint re. Mansons' alleged actions, but instead went the social media route, ensuring plenty of publicity and support for themselves without having to answer any pesky questions or produce any evidence to substantiate their allegations.
Perhaps because rape and sexual violence is the single most underreported crime out there, the likelihood a person is suffering from PTSD and only being able to come forward years after the fact (or never), not receiving any justice at the cost of revisited trauma as BSC mentioned, a lack of evidence (given the nature of the crime), fear of the accused...a mix of these and many other factors?
The news around this also states Wood had stated being abused by a partner a few times in the years after, once before a Judiciary Committee but never named anybody, until now.
But hey, sure it's dangerous times we're living in when multiple women can't just put all that aside and go down the proper route with their "complaint". I'm sure a multi million dollar actress could do with the publicity of being raped.
EDIT: my last comment was posted before your last more clearly stated, clarified one.
Never had any interest or opinion in the man or his music. But yer one from Westworld accusing him doesn't come across as the type that would put up with or take any kind of shit from anyone.
The coverage this story is getting is quite amusing too, in that some websites covering it are basically tearing into him after years of fawning over everything he ever did.
Quote from: son of the Morrigan on February 05, 2021, 10:42:31 PM
To suggest however, that the solution to these shortcomings is to ignore and circumvent the justice system all-together, in favor of using social media as an unregulated tool of public pillory is shortsighted in the extreme.
I didn't suggest anything, I just understand why it would be seen as an easier way to try to offload the psychological burden. Quite simply because it actually is. Having never been raped, I'm not going to tell anyone who has what the appropriate response they should have is. And as murky and complex as things may get with dishonesty and even more complicated psychological goings on, the worn out doubt-stirrer of "Well, why didn't they go to the police, hmm?" just doesn't hold water, besides being not in the slightest bit insightful at this stage.
Didn't read much into this outside of this thread but I have little doubt that he was up to plenty of severely dicey shit over the years. Having read his book as a young fella I can't see how anyone is truly surprised but at the same time the trial by social media disturbs me a bit. I accept that's the world we live in though, and not raping people is generally a good way of avoiding being accused of it.
Quote from: astfgyl on February 06, 2021, 11:21:42 AM
not raping people is generally a good way of avoiding being accused of it.
Not really though. A simple Google will tell you there are more than enough women out there happy to destroy a young fellas reputation with a false accusation.
Oh I'm well aware of that, it's why I said generally. Also why the trial by social media bothers me. Similar happened a couple of years ago with trent reznor and maynard keenan but it didn't really take off and they appear to have come out of it ok. The difference here I guess is the high profile of the accuser so it's a lot harder to shake off. From Warner's perspective he should be suing for defamation if he is innocent and keep his head down in the meantime and let his innocence or lack thereof be subject to the scrutiny of the court
Why exactly should Warner spend his money proving his innocence? It should be up to the criminal justice system to prove his guilt.
In an ideal world yes, but the trial by social media is what it is and for right or wrong it has gained enough traction here that if he just lets it off he will be forever stuck with the rapist label. I believe the burden of proof should lie with the accuser but the world is all the wrong way around these days so I think he would have to have his day in court to shake it off, as unfair as that is.
Yeah! Why the fuck do we have a defense in the court system?? There should just be a prosecution!
Jesus and the Antichrist wept...
I'm not sure I'm getting you. If I was him and was being publicly accused but not arrested or charged, I would be looking to clear my name. If I simply claimed innocence no one would believe me, so I would have to go and show that there was no evidence against me. She says he raped her. That seems to be all so far but it's enough to be dropped by the label and career in tatters (could be said it already was, fair enough).
from his perspective the damage is done, so what can he do? Unless he's guilty but no one knows if he is
My post wasn't really directed at you.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 06, 2021, 04:32:52 PM
Yeah! Why the fuck do we have a defense in the court system?? There should just be a prosecution!
Jesus and the Antichrist wept...
See this is the problem today and why I do not engage with certain types of people online. They are unable to get their point across without Sarcasm and snide remarks.
Genuinely, going back through, I'm finding it very difficult to make sense of your position in the thread; you've gone from "no surprise!" to "how do they get away with it for so long?" to "why should he have to prove his innocence?"
Your answers are in your own questions!
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 06, 2021, 06:04:41 PM
Genuinely, going back through, I'm finding it very difficult to make sense of your position in the thread; you've gone from "no surprise!" to "how do they get away with it for so long?" to "why should he have to prove his innocence?"
Your answers are in your own questions!
Nice twisting of my words there mate.
1. Unsurprising that there have been accusations given the guys notoriety.
2. If he is guilty how has he gotten away with it for all of these years.
3. Guilty until proven innocent is not a justice system I wish to endorse no matter how much I like or dislike a person.
You can get fucked trying to paint me as some sort of victim blamer. You and your ilk are the reason lives get destroyed even when accusations get proven false.
My very point was that I wasn't able to "paint you" as anything at all! I still don't really get your overall take.
And don't worry, there's thankfully fierce few of my quite particular ilk! :laugh:
He should be tried in a court of law. Jailed if convicted. Although nearly every legal system on the planet is painfully ineffective when it comes to dealing with sex crimes it's still the best system we currently have. Trial by social media is a million times worse.
It seems like the fairest way to do it. Once the story is out surely court is the only way. The thing is, if it's going back and they were together at the time, it must be extremely difficult to prove guilt or innocence. A really messy situation and I don't know what would be the best solution around allegations being made on social media.
Antichrist Superstar is a good album while we're here. Funny how varg can do time for murder and still have a record label, even in jail but if this sticks, Warner is finished.
Trial by social media is worse in some ways, yet in other ways better; if you're found guilty by social media you don't get sent to prison for years, which makes it considerably better for the accused if they do happen to be guilty. Plus, it's nothing new; previously (well, not that these have gone away) we had trial by tabloid, trial by gossip and rumour, etc. Sexual assault of any kind is a highly emotionally charged subject, where the views and interpretations of those who have been victims of it and those who haven't seem in practice to be incommensurable, which also explains much of the difficulty in dealing with them.
Innocent until proven guilty is a principle that only the judicial system works upon, as it should. But proving someone guilty, especially in this kind of sexual assault case, can often be next to impossible; victims know this, and lawyers they may turn to also know this. Outside of the judicial system, no one is beholden to that principle, and we work as humans always work by default; we have faith, or not, in the veracity of a given individual's statements. To give the obvious extreme example, if your partner came to you one day and told you about an assault she had been the victim of at some point in her life, you wouldn't hold off on believing her attacker was guilty until she could "prove" it, and hopefully you wouldn't doubt the truth of it simply because she was only plucking up the courage to tell you about it now rather than years earlier. So knowing that the judicial path may be next to impossible to pursue with any success, what is the "appropriate" way for a genuine (for argument's sake at least) victim to let it out? To do something about it? I don't have an answer to that question; I'm saying that I don't think any of us do.
I have the answer.
I agree with all that up there and especially the part about no one having the answer (except McLove). It's a fraught subject for sure and the only thing is to watch it play out and see what comes of it. It's not as cut and dried as something like Gary Glitter for example. I wonder how many Glitter tattoos have been covered up or are still on people? How many are looking at their MM tattoos now and regretting them hard
...and how many others flaccid?
Very good! Most of them
Quote from: astfgyl on February 07, 2021, 12:54:37 PM
I agree with all that up there and especially the part about no one having the answer (except McLove). It's a fraught subject for sure and the only thing is to watch it play out and see what comes of it. It's not as cut and dried as something like Gary Glitter for example. I wonder how many Glitter tattoos have been covered up or are still on people? How many are looking at their MM tattoos now and regretting them hard
I'm hoping this will lead to a price drop on vinyl of his first 4 albums 😂
Quote from: lifeeternal on February 07, 2021, 04:25:22 PM
I'm hoping this will lead to a price drop on vinyl of his first 4 albums 😂
Silver lining :abbath: :abbath: :abbath: :abbath:
Here is a particularly egregious example of just how thankless the judicial channel can be. True enough, in France, the laws around age and consent are properly ludicrous, but it's more about the difficulty of applying whatever laws are there which is common to most western societies, precisely because of the issue of "proof" of guilt. Remember the recent rugby case in NI, the initial treatment of the "manada" case in Spain...all so many understandably highly mediatized cases that are stark reminders to any victim of sexual assault that the "proper" avenues are most likely to be treadmills of repeating trauma with absolutely no guarantee of justice, not to mention your own reputation likely to be dragged through the mud just as much as your attacker(s). Tis a fucked up world, in which I'm glad to be a man tbh. Unpleasant reading:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/07/outrage-over-french-girls-case-sparks-demand-for-law-to-protect-minors
Jesus that is grim.
Maybe a special criminal court for sexual assault could be an avenue lawmakers could take? Guaranteed anonymity to all parties until the final verdict is made along with any appeals. The bottom line is we cannot have a law system whereby an accuser cannot be cross-examined by a qualified solicitor/barrister so a complete media blackout on these cases is warranted. In relation to the rugby case it took the Jury no time at all to reach their verdict despite the huge pressure from a social media mob, even high ranking politicians. The men from the case have had their careers and reputations permanently damaged despite a not-guilty verdict. Have you any solution for that?
With regards to the age of consent well I 100 percent agree it needs to be raised considerably in France.
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 11:35:57 AM
The men from the case have had their careers and reputations permanently damaged despite a not-guilty verdict. Have you any solution for that?
A not-guilty verdict for a specific crime, but the damage to their careers and reputations - in that particular case - was them literally being condemned by their own words. I know you're just using it as an example, and for sure there are men out there who have had their reputations tarnished without justification...but everything we know about sexual assault still tells us that, regardless of how many anecdotes to be found via a Google search, statistically they are vanishingly few compared to the number of unreported attacks and, hence, unpunished attackers.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 08, 2021, 11:46:55 AM
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 11:35:57 AM
The men from the case have had their careers and reputations permanently damaged despite a not-guilty verdict. Have you any solution for that?
A not-guilty verdict for a specific crime, but the damage to their careers and reputations - in that particular case - was them literally being condemned by their own words. I know you're just using it as an example, and for sure there are men out there who have had their reputations tarnished without justification...but everything we know about sexual assault still tells us that, regardless of how many anecdotes to be found via a Google search, statistically they are vanishingly few compared to the number of unreported attacks and, hence, unpunished attackers.
Anecdotes, really? I assume you have plenty of statistical evidence and factual information to back up your posts then?
That's some read, holy shit.
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 11:56:53 AM
Anecdotes, really? I assume you have plenty of statistical evidence and factual information to back up your posts then?
Anecdote as in an individual personal account, an individual case, as opposed to analyses of all available cases, which estimate that only around a quarter of all sexual crimes are reported and that rape is the single most underreported crime across the globe. No shortage of sources for that information via a quick google search.
Dear God. You can't just decide that some Google searches throw up anecdotal evidence for one persons assertion and factual information for yours.
Nothing above makes me think that the justice system in place needs changing other than total anonymity for all parties involved.
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 12:16:12 PM
Dear God. You can't just decide that some Google searches throw up anecdotal evidence for one persons assertion and factual information for yours.
Quote from: Blackout on February 06, 2021, 12:42:38 PM
A simple Google will tell you there are more than enough women out there happy to destroy a young fellas reputation with a false accusation.
When you said this, were you basing that on individual cases reported on Google or on some analysis and factual information? If you compare stats on unreported rape and stats on false accusations, results from the former absolutely dwarf the latter. That's what I was trying to get across.
This is getting tiring. Without the constant bluster, do you propose that we should have a justice system that allows for people to be prosecuted for sexual assault without cross examination? If so what is the alternative?
I dont want yo know about anymore horrific cases, unreported sexual assaults etc etc etc. Just answer the above and we can put the matter to bed.
However you put it to bed, please do it consensually, for Gawd's sake!
That guardian story is terrible stuff altogether. 20 dirty bastards.
Didn't know there was effectively no age of consent there.
As regards solving the issue of guilt in historical cases, I'd be inclined to think that it will never be solved. Lack of evidence doesn't equate to a lack of a crime, but circumstantial evidence alone doesn't equate to a crime.
At least it can be ruled out that it's for money in the Warner case so it seems to add a bit of credence to the claim, but who knows what other motivations someone might have
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 12:38:50 PM
This is getting tiring. Without the constant bluster, do you propose that we should have a justice system that allows for people to be prosecuted for sexual assault without cross examination? If so what is the alternative?
I dont want yo know about anymore horrific cases, unreported sexual assaults etc etc etc. Just answer the above and we can put the matter to bed.
No, I'm not proposing that. I'm saying that the "false accusations" card doesn't carry nearly the same weight as the "understandable reasons for not having pursued the proper channels" card. As for workable alternatives to the current system, I'm pretty sure more knowledgeable people than either of us have given it plenty of thought.
On The BBC news site it mentioned Brian took pics up a girl's shirt at a festival. It also mentioned that Trent Reznor still denies that they both sexually someone together which was mentioned in Manson's biography.
This is the first I heard of this. What was it that was said in the book? If Reznor denies it couldn't he have also sued?
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 08, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 11:56:53 AM
Anecdotes, really? I assume you have plenty of statistical evidence and factual information to back up your posts then?
Anecdote as in an individual personal account, an individual case, as opposed to analyses of all available cases, which estimate that only around a quarter of all sexual crimes are reported and that rape is the single most underreported crime across the globe. No shortage of sources for that information via a quick google search.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
fucking brilliant, a group of experts analysed "all available cases" and their expert analyses of these cases led them to "estimate" that for every one they had analysed, there should be three more. Again, fucking brilliant.
this auld rubbish is being bandied about by interest groups, cranks, crackpots and cunts on a regular basis and it really boils my shite.
What method was employed to come by this estimation?, did they ask Mystic Meg or something?
How does one count crimes that are not reported?
Bullshit.
"Rape is the most unreported crime across the globe."
What a load of utter scutter, not petty theft, not common assault, not vandalism, no, "rape is the most unreported crime across the globe"
Bullshit.
Would you mind pointing me in the general direction of these sources you get your information from so that I can have a right fucking laugh?, you say there is no shortage of them.
Quote"Rape is the most unreported crime across the globe."
What a load of utter scutter, not petty theft, not common assault, not vandalism, no, "rape is the most unreported crime across the globe"
Bullshit.
Would you mind pointing me in the general direction of these sources you get your information from so that I can have a right fucking laugh?, you say there is no shortage of them.
The National Crime Victimisation survey, the British Crime Survey, and all of the others of the same type relevant to their particular country. There's also Crisis centers, etc. As BSC said, this stuff is easily found from a Google search and isn't some mystical, hard to source information.
Ya, I think the general direction he's looking for is just away from his own arse.
Quote from: son of the Morrigan on February 08, 2021, 07:23:05 PM
"Rape is the most unreported crime across the globe."
What a load of utter scutter, not petty theft, not common assault, not vandalism, no, "rape is the most unreported crime across the globe"
Bullshit.
Rape is vastly under reported. Around 75% or 3 in 4 rape cases will not be reported to police. The mostly women (but a small percentage of men) will not report it due to the shocking treatment of victims in the criminal justice system. Of those reported cases only 5 to 10 percent will lead to a conviction.
Where I learned this was through my cousin who was the head of the Irish rape crisis centre for many years.
Quote from: Kunt 4 Life on February 08, 2021, 07:16:01 PM
On The BBC news site it mentioned Brian took pics up a girl's shirt at a festival. It also mentioned that Trent Reznor still denies that they both sexually someone together which was mentioned in Manson's biography.
This is the first I heard of this. What was it that was said in the book? If Reznor denies it couldn't he have also sued?
Back in the day when the book came out, Reznor said it was bullshit and fell out with Warner. Made up with him later though and now says he was finished with him for nearly 30 years which is a bit mad when Warner appears in the Starfuckers, Inc video in 2000, after the book and reported falling out and reconciliation.
Has anyone come out sticking up for MM yet?
Quote from: son of the Morrigan on February 08, 2021, 07:23:05 PM
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 08, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Blackout on February 08, 2021, 11:56:53 AM
Anecdotes, really? I assume you have plenty of statistical evidence and factual information to back up your posts then?
Anecdote as in an individual personal account, an individual case, as opposed to analyses of all available cases, which estimate that only around a quarter of all sexual crimes are reported and that rape is the single most underreported crime across the globe. No shortage of sources for that information via a quick google search.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
fucking brilliant, a group of experts analysed "all available cases" and their expert analyses of these cases led them to "estimate" that for every one they had analysed, there should be three more. Again, fucking brilliant.
this auld rubbish is being bandied about by interest groups, cranks, crackpots and cunts on a regular basis and it really boils my shite.
What method was employed to come by this estimation?, did they ask Mystic Meg or something?
How does one count crimes that are not reported?
Bullshit.
"Rape is the most unreported crime across the globe."
What a load of utter scutter, not petty theft, not common assault, not vandalism, no, "rape is the most unreported crime across the globe"
Bullshit.
Would you mind pointing me in the general direction of these sources you get your information from so that I can have a right fucking laugh?, you say there is no shortage of them.
Many apologies.
I took the entirely wrong tone here, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and this is certainly not a subject one should attempt to be witty about.
I should have just enquired as to what sources you were referring to, If its any defense I had drink taken.
I will take a look at the sources suggested above and I am more than open to having my mind changed on the matter.
The percentages being quoted here just seem insane to me, given the instances of rape that are being reported.
Perhaps I have a overdeveloped sense of the morality and humanity of my fellow man.
First fair play for the apology. The drink can do quare things to a person's posts. I have learned that the hard way. Regarding the numbers they can seem large but I think they bear up to scrutiny. For the people that go to a rape crisis centre it's a low percentage that will go to the police afterwards. Sad but true. And to your last point. The vast overwhelming majority of men have that morality and humanity. But a certain tiny percentage don't and it's hard for someone with a good moral compass to envision how those type of people can carry out such a vile act. Also I'm not a fan of trial by social media either but it's the times we live in and on some level for victims I think it's a way of taking back control but that's only me thinking out loud.
If someone gets raped repeatedly over many years by the same person, each one of those rapes is a separate crime. This is a very basic, empirical fact that seems too easily to escape our attention and reasoning without us even realising it. Victims of serial child abuse, for example, are not victims of a single crime. So, one individual not officially reporting an attacker or attackers (but possibly speaking about them to a counsellor or psychiatrist, etc.) may represent dozens of unreported crimes. Then multiply that by the low percentage of individuals who do actually officially report that they have been abused at all, and yes, I think the numbers do stand up. Take Rachel Evan Wood as an example; let's ("for argument's sake" disclaimer for those who may need one) say that everything she is saying is fact. She still, as far as we know, hasn't "reported" any of it, yet it would represent dozens of sexual abuse crimes dating back over ten years.
Oh dear, old Marilyn's in the slammer. The orange jumpsuit looks well on him in fairness...
https://youtu.be/JqQzhdF32D8
His eyebrows, or lack thereof, really give him a weird looking face
Apparently a criminal investigation has started so at least the truth has a chance to come out.
Arrest warrant issued. I'd imagine he is fucked now.
David Ellefson and Manson should start a band ha ha
Quote from: Blackout on May 26, 2021, 10:15:41 AM
Arrest warrant issued. I'd imagine he is fucked now.
For spitting at someone in 2019. This place is as bad as the tabloids.
Quote from: open face surgery on May 26, 2021, 04:16:44 PM
Quote from: Blackout on May 26, 2021, 10:15:41 AM
Arrest warrant issued. I'd imagine he is fucked now.
For spitting at someone in 2019. This place is as bad as the tabloids.
I will admit I didn't read the article but I stand by my assertion he is fucked because he technically is kthxbai.
Manson is back touring in the US. A new single just released and a European tour announced for early 2025. It looks like he has bounced back like Rammstein.
https://lambgoat.com/news/43547/code-orange-guitarist-reba-meyers-joins-marilyn-mansons-band-on-first-tour-in-years/ (https://lambgoat.com/news/43547/code-orange-guitarist-reba-meyers-joins-marilyn-mansons-band-on-first-tour-in-years/)
He's supporting Five Finger Arse Punch, I don't think he's bounced too far back.
Is he not headlining his own shows?
Quote from: Kunt 4 Life on August 05, 2024, 03:58:50 PMIs he not headlining his own shows?
Think there's UK shows announced for the end of the year, but he's not a headliner in the states.
Be cool to see him live if he pops to these shores
Quote from: Carnage on August 05, 2024, 02:11:31 PMHe's supporting Five Finger Arse Punch, I don't think he's bounced too far back.
"... needless to say - I had the last laugh."
Quote from: Necro Red on August 06, 2024, 10:15:10 AMBe cool to see him live if he pops to these shores
Yeah his voice sounds quite good from the footage I saw, not a terrible setlist either, could do with a few more from ACS though
Quote from: Skott Furys jizz rag on August 06, 2024, 11:14:24 AMQuote from: Necro Red on August 06, 2024, 10:15:10 AMBe cool to see him live if he pops to these shores
Yeah his voice sounds quite good from the footage I saw, not a terrible setlist either, could do with a few more from ACS though
Not that I wouldn't rule out seeing him again potentially, but I did see him once (Hellfest 2009 maybe?) and it was one of the worst performances I've ever seen. He just could not give a fuck.
Completely random side tangent, but for fans of his autobiography or Pantera's Vulgar Videos, that Tony Wiggins guy (the bus driver in Vulgar Videos, the 'vacuum for sin' in the autobiography) has also reappeared and is now trying to live a quiet life. That quiet life being opening a liquor store in some bible belt area that has never had one and they're all opposed to it :laugh:
Supposedly he's not open to being asked about his past though as he's trying to keep it under wraps these days. Was meant to be the most batshit mental one of the lot. Manson says he's the one who corrupted him. Seemed a real character.
https://www.reddit.com/r/marilyn_manson/comments/vwab68/i_think_ive_found_him/?share_id=Yzk6ak_agcovM-TNGrjla&utm_content=2&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1 (https://www.reddit.com/r/marilyn_manson/comments/vwab68/i_think_ive_found_him/?share_id=Yzk6ak_agcovM-TNGrjla&utm_content=2&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1)
Yeah, think even Pantera had to let him go for all the messing too.