Marilyn 'Brian' Manson had been a very naughty boy

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Yeah! Why the fuck do we have a defense in the court system?? There should just be a prosecution!

Jesus and the Antichrist wept...

[astfgyl]

I'm not sure I'm getting you. If I was him and was being publicly accused but not arrested or charged, I would be looking to clear my name. If I simply claimed innocence no one would believe me, so I would have to go and show that there was no evidence against me. She says he raped her. That seems to be all so far but it's enough to be dropped by the label and career in tatters (could be said it already was, fair enough).

from his perspective the damage is done, so what can he do? Unless he's guilty but no one knows if he is

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

My post wasn't really directed at you.

[Blackout]

Yeah! Why the fuck do we have a defense in the court system?? There should just be a prosecution!

Jesus and the Antichrist wept...

See this is the problem today and why I do not engage with certain types of people online. They are unable to get their point across without Sarcasm and snide remarks.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Genuinely, going back through, I'm finding it very difficult to make sense of your position in the thread; you've gone from "no surprise!" to "how do they get away with it for so long?" to "why should he have to prove his innocence?"

Your answers are in your own questions!

[Blackout]

Genuinely, going back through, I'm finding it very difficult to make sense of your position in the thread; you've gone from "no surprise!" to "how do they get away with it for so long?" to "why should he have to prove his innocence?"

Your answers are in your own questions!

Nice twisting of my words there mate.

1. Unsurprising that there have been accusations given the guys notoriety.
2. If he is guilty how has he gotten away with it for all of these years.
3. Guilty until proven innocent is not a justice system I wish to endorse no matter how much I like or dislike a person.

You can get fucked trying to paint me as some sort of victim blamer. You and your ilk are the reason lives get destroyed even when accusations get proven false.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

My very point was that I wasn't able to "paint you" as anything at all! I still don't really get your overall take.

And don't worry, there's thankfully fierce few of my quite particular ilk! 

[hellfire]

He should be tried in a court of law. Jailed if convicted. Although nearly every legal system on the planet is painfully ineffective when it comes to dealing with sex crimes it's still the best system we currently have. Trial by social media is a million times worse.

[astfgyl]

It seems like the fairest way to do it. Once the story is out surely court is the only way. The thing is, if it's going back and they were together at the time, it must be extremely difficult to prove guilt or innocence. A really messy situation and I don't know what would be the best solution around allegations being made on social media.

Antichrist Superstar is a good album while we're here. Funny how varg can do time for murder and still have a record label, even in jail but if this sticks, Warner is finished.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Trial by social media is worse in some ways, yet in other ways better; if you're found guilty by social media you don't get sent to prison for years, which makes it considerably better for the accused if they do happen to be guilty. Plus, it's nothing new; previously (well, not that these have gone away) we had trial by tabloid, trial by gossip and rumour, etc. Sexual assault of any kind is a highly emotionally charged subject, where the views and interpretations of those who have been victims of it and those who haven't seem in practice to be incommensurable, which also explains much of the difficulty in dealing with them.

Innocent until proven guilty is a principle that only the judicial system works upon, as it should. But proving someone guilty, especially in this kind of sexual assault case, can often be next to impossible; victims know this, and lawyers they may turn to also know this. Outside of the judicial system, no one is beholden to that principle, and we work as humans always work by default; we have faith, or not, in the veracity of a given individual's statements. To give the obvious extreme example, if your partner came to you one day and told you about an assault she had been the victim of at some point in her life, you wouldn't hold off on believing her attacker was guilty until she could "prove" it, and hopefully you wouldn't doubt the truth of it simply because she was only plucking up the courage to tell you about it now rather than years earlier. So knowing that the judicial path may be next to impossible to pursue with any success, what is the "appropriate" way for a genuine (for argument's sake at least) victim to let it out? To do something about it? I don't have an answer to that question; I'm saying that I don't think any of us do.

[Eoin McLove]

I have the answer.

[astfgyl]

I agree with all that up there and especially the part about no one having the answer (except McLove). It's a fraught subject for sure and the only thing is to watch it play out and see what comes of it. It's not as cut and dried as something like Gary Glitter for example. I wonder how many Glitter tattoos have been covered up or are still on people? How many are looking at their MM tattoos now and  regretting them hard

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

...and how many others flaccid?

[astfgyl]

Very good! Most of them

[lifeeternal]

I agree with all that up there and especially the part about no one having the answer (except McLove). It's a fraught subject for sure and the only thing is to watch it play out and see what comes of it. It's not as cut and dried as something like Gary Glitter for example. I wonder how many Glitter tattoos have been covered up or are still on people? How many are looking at their MM tattoos now and  regretting them hard

I'm hoping this will lead to a price drop on vinyl of his first 4 albums 😂