Are we all fucked?

[hellfire]

The norm for the Sahara is extreme, doesn't make it any less extreme. I know what you mean about frequency, but extreme also relates to ability to survive in the face of.

A lot of the weatherproofing measures, if done properly, would also contribute to removing carbon from the atmosphere and even trap it before it got there. People talk a lot about "planting trees", but we know that if trees are just planted all together in massive monoculture forests somewhere, that's not an optimal use. Trees can be used to weatherproof cities, for example. Bordeaux, a place where extreme  temperatures above 40° are slowly but surely becoming the norm in summer, would benefit massively from planting rake loads of trees around the city. And regarding flooding, they can also be used to hold soil in place around cities and towns at risk, which can do a lot to help curb mudslides, etc.

Personally, I think folk would better serve themselves and the planet if they directed their skepticism away from the models and towards the solutions being proposed.

I think that's the first time I've ever fully agreed with something you said in off topic.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Tis more important by far than anything else we ever discuss in here too, so you could say we agree on the essentials!   

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Brain fog or not, it's certainly not as benign as you are implying.

Not implying it's benign, but folk have to deal with actual reality: there is only one single action that can be taken to reduce numbers of EU citizen immigrants to Ireland, whether they be Romany or Romans, and that is to leave the EU. There's somewhere around 500,000 Irish people, as in born in Ireland citizens, living abroad in the EU. Maybe between 2/3 and 3/4 of all Irish born emigrants around the world (according to the figures in the article posted above). So the benefits are being spread both ways. And we're just not going to be leaving the EU, so forget about it, it's not even worth talking about.

How the influx is being dealt with, the housing crisis, etc., etc., that's all a different matter and it's a holy fucking show, we all know that. But the fact remains, and probably will never, ever change; there would be far more people in Ireland had none of us ever emigrated and no one ever immigrated. In other words, housing problems have nothing to do with immigration, because those same problems would be even worse without emigration. And I'm not going back to the famine. The same would be the case even if you only counted from the 80s. 

[Caomhaoin]

I agree the housing situation would be there regardless. But the immigration situation is an aggravating factor.

I don't think leaving the EU would stop much, just ask the Brits!

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2022/08/eu-migration-has-plummeted-since-brexit

I agree the housing situation would be there regardless. But the immigration situation is an aggravating factor.

I mean, I just showed you numerically that it isn't an aggravating factor, because immigration and emigration, in the case of Ireland, literally go hand in hand. Or else, yeah, we could continue being the shitty 80s country that people only leave and nobody in their right mind would want to move to. Would that be better?

[astfgyl]

Back to the trees and greening I'm entirely for those types of solutions rather than letting rich folk and massive corporations buy carbon credits and pass on the tax to the poor and the customers. There's lots of great things we can be doing but the profiteering will be strong and I'm not for that at all. Let the companies pay but shave off the top profits

[hellfire]

Brain fog or not, it's certainly not as benign as you are implying.

Not implying it's benign, but folk have to deal with actual reality: there is only one single action that can be taken to reduce numbers of EU citizen immigrants to Ireland, whether they be Romany or Romans, and that is to leave the EU. There's somewhere around 500,000 Irish people, as in born in Ireland citizens, living abroad in the EU. Maybe between 2/3 and 3/4 of all Irish born emigrants around the world (according to the figures in the article posted above). So the benefits are being spread both ways. And we're just not going to be leaving the EU, so forget about it, it's not even worth talking about.

How the influx is being dealt with, the housing crisis, etc., etc., that's all a different matter and it's a holy fucking show, we all know that. But the fact remains, and probably will never, ever change; there would be far more people in Ireland had none of us ever emigrated and no one ever immigrated. In other words, housing problems have nothing to do with immigration, because those same problems would be even worse without emigration. And I'm not going back to the famine. The same would be the case even if you only counted from the 80s. 

Reducing immigrant numbers to only those needed in the country could be achieved by completely removing access to welfare and state assistance for the first five years. Also having enough in a locked account to deport ones self in an emergency would be good. Australian type points system would be good too.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Grand. But none of that could ever be applied to EU citizens without Ireland leaving the EU. And the Irish citizenry as a whole get more out of that situation than Ireland gives (as in, there are more Irish citizens living abroad in the EU than there are non-Irish EU citizens living in Ireland). I know that can be perceived as an unbalanced situation by some Irish still living in Ireland, but the failings of the government have nothing to do with the numbers of immigrants. They're just failures of a succession of governments who would have fucked things up out of cronyism and back-handers regardless of numbers of residents. I just don't buy that immigration is even in a top 5 of things that most urgently need sorting out. FG and FF have been fucking shit up since long before immigration to Ireland was a thing at all.

[hellfire]

I've long since said that the EU should be a trade agreement and nothing more. European people and Irish people were well able to work abroad before it existed. Filling out a visa application beforehand wouldn't kill anyone. Trimming the fat immigration wise would sort out the housing crisis rapidly and could go some way towards taking pressure off an overburden health system.

[astfgyl]

I've long since said that the EU should be a trade agreement and nothing more. European people and Irish people were well able to work abroad before it existed. Filling out a visa application beforehand wouldn't kill anyone. Trimming the fat immigration wise would sort out the housing crisis rapidly and could go some way towards taking pressure off an overburden health system.

Ah yeah there's that far right I keep hearing about with their practical solutions

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

They're only practical solutions if they're solutions. And it's questionable that they are that. This point about the reality of the world doesn't seem to be getting through: even if Ireland was allowed to introduce stiffer immigration rules for EU citizens wishing to come, these would be reciprocated by other EU countries, which would make it more difficult for Irish people to move to them or to stay there if already there. In other words, there's a very real chance as many if not more Irish people would have to move back home as non-Irish people would have to leave under those conditions. Result? Housing situation remains exactly the same.

[astfgyl]

I'm not against immigration at all sure half my mates are immigrants somewhere else but there's a debate which won't be had there about taking in massive numbers when it's not exactly top notch for our own. A debate though, I don't have the proper answer

[hellfire]

They're only practical solutions if they're solutions. And it's questionable that they are that. This point about the reality of the world doesn't seem to be getting through: even if Ireland was allowed to introduce stiffer immigration rules for EU citizens wishing to come, these would be reciprocated by other EU countries, which would make it more difficult for Irish people to move to them or to stay there if already there. In other words, there's a very real chance as many if not more Irish people would have to move back home as non-Irish people would have to leave under those conditions. Result? Housing situation remains exactly the same.

You're assuming that every country would send all of those immigrants home. Countries have no interest in kicking people out who are useful to the economy. It was the same argument that was frequently brought up before brexit, it never materialised. I can imagine the numbers of unskilled, unemployable and criminals would dwindle.

Deportation orders need to be enforced here too. The amount of people here working for below minimum wage off the books is neither good for them or the country.

[Caomhaoin]

The worst Moroccans and Romanians in the world live in Madrid. Ive been to both countries, and no bother, sound boyz and relatively normal, functioning countries. Moroccans here in particular have a dreadful and justified reputation  for petty crime. So you are probably right.

[The Butcher]

Interesting to look at the details of those immigration figures too, since many people assume a certain thing when they hear the word "immigration" and for some reason that tends to send them into a panicked brain fog:

There's somewhere around 500,000 Irish people, as in born in Ireland citizens, living abroad in the EU. Maybe between 2/3 and 3/4 of all Irish born emigrants around the world (according to the figures in the article posted above). So the benefits are being spread both ways.

The Irish numbers are basically irrelevant - 28k returned while 27k left - Net is what matters and it was 61k to April. Doesn't matter where they came from either whether its EU or non EU really. There is an imbalance though being an island of our size - plus 17% of the population is foreign born, far more than the 500k Irish you mentioned.
https://www.oecd.org/migration/integration-indicators-2012/keyindicatorsbycountry/name,218334,en.htm

And we're just not going to be leaving the EU, so forget about it, it's not even worth talking about.

Honestly it should be part of the discussion for our MEPs to put forward. I think we should be allowed to put in hard limits against how many can arrive at least you can plan and say we need X number of housing/infrastructure because we have Y number of migrants this year, next year etc. To be against something like that is being disingenuous. Issue permits annually like Canada did. If nothing happens there is a real risk down the line esp with our current housing issues, it's going to turn people against the EU totally, a bit like Brexit. People will ask those questions, why can't the EU just be about trade, does it have to be about borders too. We are running that risk year on year, allowing that "brain fog" to develop, there is no way you can wave it away when you are not being able to get accommodation when you are working. It's a massive failure. If that is the cost of being in the EU then who benefits? Because it's at the cost of everyone else.

Plus the majority of housing units we build now are 1 bed shoe boxes. That's not a future I'm looking forward to.