The Donald vs Big Tech

[Eoin McLove]

Minneapolis abolishing their police force.  Wow.  What does this actually mean,  I wonder.  It seems like such a knee jerk and hopeless response to a breakdown in law and order (both within and without the system itself). Is this the beginning of the civil war America has been teetering towards?

[pete]

I sounds interesting to me anyway:

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/

"We had already pushed for pilot programs to dispatch county mental health professionals to mental health calls, and fire department EMTs to opioid overdose calls, without police officers. We have similarly experimented with unarmed, community-oriented street teams on weekend nights downtown to focus on de-escalation. We could similarly turn traffic enforcement over to cameras and, potentially, our parking enforcement staff, rather than our police department.

We can reimagine what public safety means, what skills we recruit for, and what tools we do and do not need. We can play a role in combating the systems of white supremacy in public safety that the death of black and brown lives has laid bare. We can invest in cultural competency and mental health training, de-escalation and conflict resolution. We can send a city response that that is appropriate to each situation and makes it better. We can resolve confusion over a $20 grocery transaction without drawing a weapon or pulling out handcuffs."

Apparently they did something similar in Camden, NJ that seems to have been successful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Department
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

It's hard to know if they actually sacked the whole of the original force or how the transition in 2013 worked.

[hellfire]

Minneapolis abolishing their police force.  Wow.  What does this actually mean,  I wonder.  It seems like such a knee jerk and hopeless response to a breakdown in law and order (both within and without the system itself). Is this the beginning of the civil war America has been teetering towards?

Confused myself by that one. If you replace every one of them you'll end up with a newbie police force that is completely inept. People would do well to remember that there is only a percentage of them who are lunatics. Wouldn't be surprised to see a police strike in at least one state.

[Eoin McLove]

I think they need to do something,  and perhaps having various teams of armed and unarmed cops to deal with various situations is not such a bad idea.  But yes,  will there be a police vacuum until they retrain new people,  will jobs be lost and have to be reapplied for and what happens in the interim? It seems like a huge task.  If Trump jumps in with reserves or martial law,  all fucking Hell could (continue to!) break loose. I don't really know what to make of it but it will be interesting to hear the various different commentators du jour's take on things.

[hellfire]

The type of reform that is being asked for would take a decade at least. Someone once said that by the time you are in a standoff with the Police it's too late. In order to properly reduce this kind of incident you also need to look at education, parenting, culture, poverty and a whole bunch of other things. The police are the last line in a fucked system.

[Pedrito]

I hadn't heard that but have a look at the video here from Minneapolis: https://mobile.twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1269637740024471552?s=21

Absolute lunacy.

People murdered, countless people in comas, attacks, stabbings, I've seen videos of gangs of grown beating down tiny old women trying to keep them out of their little corner stores. Anyone who believes that it's acceptable, I'm sorry, there's something seriously wrong with them. Police violence is wrong, it needs to be fixed, but what has gone on as a result is beyond the pale.

[Pedrito]

How the fuck can you stop this kind of evil without a police force? Talking? People are living in the clouds if they believe violence, real deadly violence doesn't exist. Imagine that was your mother or sister taking a beating like that? And they want to get rid of guns? Never happening, not while this kind of thing is allowed to run free.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/newsalerts/video-2183212/Video-Horrific-moment-business-owners-couple-attacked-looters.html

[hellfire]

I hadn't heard that but have a look at the video here from Minneapolis: https://mobile.twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1269637740024471552?s=21

Absolute lunacy.

Like something out of Mad Max or Robocop!

[mickO)))]

How the fuck can you stop this kind of evil without a police force? Talking? People are living in the clouds if they believe violence, real deadly violence doesn't exist. Imagine that was your mother or sister taking a beating like that? And they want to get rid of guns? Never happening, not while this kind of thing is allowed to run free.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/newsalerts/video-2183212/Video-Horrific-moment-business-owners-couple-attacked-looters.html

I received that video along with a number of others over the last week. As bad as this one is the other videos were a lot worse.

[pete]

The type of reform that is being asked for would take a decade at least. Someone once said that by the time you are in a standoff with the Police it's too late. In order to properly reduce this kind of incident you also need to look at education, parenting, culture, poverty and a whole bunch of other things. The police are the last line in a fucked system.

I guess they can be done in tandem.

Seems to be some precedent set by Camden, NJ. Lot of articles about it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department
https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/2020/06/08/camden-nj-protest-a-blighted-city-becoming-a-beacon-of-police-reform/3139353001/

I think the councillors in Minneapolis are looking toward something like that. Although the jury is still out, it seems like some of the ideas are worth embracing.

Reading it a lot of it sounds kind of logical. Far from straightforward though I imagine!

[hellfire]

It will be poorer inner city neighbourhoods that will suffer most from a reduced police force. The idea is quite absurd. I get that a lot of anarchist type movements are sticking their noses into the whole lot. You'll see a lot of police resigning over this. That will be bad.

[Ollkiller]

The type of reform that is being asked for would take a decade at least. Someone once said that by the time you are in a standoff with the Police it's too late. In order to properly reduce this kind of incident you also need to look at education, parenting, culture, poverty and a whole bunch of other things. The police are the last line in a fucked system.

I guess they can be done in tandem.

Seems to be some precedent set by Camden, NJ. Lot of articles about it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department
https://eu.northjersey.com/story/news/columnists/mike-kelly/2020/06/08/camden-nj-protest-a-blighted-city-becoming-a-beacon-of-police-reform/3139353001/

I think the councillors in Minneapolis are looking toward something like that. Although the jury is still out, it seems like some of the ideas are worth embracing.

Reading it a lot of it sounds kind of logical. Far from straightforward though I imagine!

Aye there was a big article in the Sunday Times about how Camden, New Jersey 're invented their police force. They renamed it, cut the deadwood in the change. Way more community policing with a friendly approach. Cut murders from around 60 a year to 3 it was last year.

Thing is it's not fucking rocket science. It just needs competent leaders to implement change with buy in from the community.

[hellfire]

"Camden had 25 homicides last year, an increase from 22 the year before but an improvement compared with the record of 67 in 2012. Overall, violent crime in the city dropped 3%, with 1,161 incidents in 2019 compared with 1,197 in 2018." Not exactly sounding like paradise. Considering it has a lower population than Waterford County.

[pete]

"Camden had 25 homicides last year, an increase from 22 the year before but an improvement compared with the record of 67 in 2012. Overall, violent crime in the city dropped 3%, with 1,161 incidents in 2019 compared with 1,197 in 2018." Not exactly sounding like paradise. Considering it has a lower population than Waterford County.

Ha no, I think a paradise anywhere is a while off!  (maybe Waterford is to some! ) But moving in the right direction.

[Pedrito]

What is interesting about all of this is what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't.

If we recall a few months ago the Extinction Rebellion kicked off and it was interesting to see in the media that there was a general anti feeling against the rebellion. Yes, there was support, but I would say a lot of coverage focussed on the disruption element, the poor working man just trying to get to work, upper class toffs disrupting our lives. I personally wasn't a fan but that's really neither here nor there.

Then we get the Coronavirus. The whole flow was for lockdown, compliance, banding together and anyone who wasn't in line with that was basically a pariah. Anyone who felt their personal freedoms were being infringed on, didn't believe they should be forced to wear a mask blah blah blah.

Then we get a cop killing a black man in Minneapolis. I'd say most people here wouldn't know where the fuck Minneapolis is on a map. Suddenly, coronavirus and everything we've neen sitting on our arses trying to avoid over the past 2 months is thrown out the window and we get mass marches all across Europe, over a case we know nothing about, in a city that probably 1 in 10,000 Europeans has ever been in. We were arresting people a few weeks ago for walking outside but then the next big drama kicks in and to hell with all of that and we're out in the streets, pulikng shit to pieces.

Whatever you think about any of the issues is actually secondary here. What is clear is that we are completely manipulated as a society. You can throw the Trump obsession into the mix also. Brexit. It's been a bonkers last 12 months for hysteria and hyperbole and yet there is no war being launched, no countries invaded. Is this the new norm? Technology, social media, media, hysteria.