The Donald vs Big Tech

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The political push for pro-natalism within a capital growth-based economy is more about increasing the numbers of consumers than anything else. That's really the core of the issue. In the US, the white supremacist pro-natalists and the religious pro-natalists do happen to have more sway than in most other countries (although, both are also very present here in France, for example), but the political pro-natalists, the ones with the real power, it is all about the economy: primarily more consumers, secondarily enough workers. Have a think about how the push for more AI and more automation, etc., connects to the notion that we need more people. It's primarily about consumers. That's what our economy needs more than anything. And what our planetary habitat needs much, much less of.

[Emphyrio]

Humans are fucking up the planet.

More humans will fuck up the planet worse/faster.

Hopefully smart humans can mitigate this to some extent.

In the end, the planet will survive but us eejits won't.

There's a happy thought.

[astfgyl]

Pro natalism would work fine if we could somehow stop them all getting to pension age

[Bürggermeister]

Vaccinate them, especially with the oul Covd vax, surely?

[Ducky]

Yeah the vaccine thing is worth looking at. Which is precisely why it has been looked at repeatedly and no link has been found.

As for the pro-natalism thing, I don't think climate change is the big factor driving the birthrate down. It's more to do with the global housing crisis, cost of living, shit job prospects, childcare costs, etc. A lot of younger people see raising kids in such an unstable social and economic climate as a bad move, especially when they can barely navigate it themselves.

That's true, yeah, but the point still stands I think. Cost of living, cost of houses etc is surely an argument for partnering up sooner? That mightn't necessarily lead to people having kids sooner and having more kids in the end, but that would appear to be a more likely outcome than if people remain single for longer.

The pro-natalist argument (Louise Perry is good on this subject but no doubt is tarnished as a TERFNAZIERMERGERRRRD!) factors in the pressure women feel in the modern world to be go getters, CEOs,  career women... nothing wrong with that as such and everyone should be free to chase whatever their goals might be, but the trade off can be/ appears often to be that by putting off partnering up until later, and thus putting off having kids until later, populations in developed, progressive societies go into decline. Seems like a reasonable and not particularly extreme conclusion to me. I think that the so called meaning crisis must be linked to this. And I'm guilty of it myself. I had no intention of settling down when I was younger and so have ended up in a one and done situation. Totally delighted with the little dude, but delighted to the point that I'm kicking myself we didn't start sooner and have one or two more. Does the fact that I want to solve population decline one orgasm at a time make me a megalomaniac? Yes.

For me that's a great reason to not have kids. As BSC has pointed out, they want more consumers. Preferably servile ones who simply cannot afford upward class mobility. The housing market in its current total clusterfuck configuration is working a treat for them in that regard.

I'm not pro natalist, and despite deciding to not have kids myself, I'm not anti natalist either. I fall into the middle ground where I believe that it's 100% a personal (couples') choice. Taking 1980 as a rough idea when a lot of us were born, the global population was about 4.4 billion. It's now 8.2 billion. Ignoring how shit the world has become, that fact alone kills off a lot of the urgency that we need to keep reproducing.

Given the raw numbers there, I don't think progressive societies will go into decline, rather they'll hit an equilibrium. Those same societies should be doing their utmost to prevent the young and the bright seeking better lives elsewhere. Quality, not quantity.

[Ducky]

Nothing to see here...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-2028-apparel-sale-trump-organizations-online-store-rcna202856

[Eoin McLove]

The thing is I don't believe the world has turned to shit so maybe that's part of the issue. It's a perception thing. There have always been and will always be wars. Pollution has been a problem for a hundred years but I think the focus on trying to address it is positive and has only become a massive mainstream issue in the past twenty five years or so, so it's new and somewhat embryonic, and yet the ladies (I meant leaps but I'll leave it there because I think there's a post punk band in the making in Ladies In Technology) in technology give me hope that in the not too distant future solutions will be found for some of the bigger issues. Maybe the real issue concerning people having kids or not, or at least a defining factor, is your outlook on life? If you are generally more pessimistic than optimistic then the world probably appears more bleak. If you ruminate only on the negative stuff then I can see how it might seem like shit but that's why I think you should take the news in small doses and spend a lot more time in nature and doing constructive,  creative things in your free time. For me at least it makes life feel like a fun adventure as opposed to an endless battle.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Maybe it doesn't come across very well on here, but I actually love life     

[astfgyl]

Vaccinate them, especially with the oul Covd vax, surely?

Doesn't seem to have worked in any direction, that old thing. Neither prevented covid or killed everyone who took it.

Very disappointing for all involved except the profiteers

[Bürggermeister]

Nobody ever said it would prevent Covid, merely alleviate the the severity of the symptoms for those who contracted Covid.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Vaccinate them, then they'll develop autism, then we put them on the register, then we disappear them to El Salvador. Simple.

[astfgyl]

Yknow something, there's no way I'm getting into anything to do with covid or vaccines. Each to their own in that regard, rfk included.

Regarding pro natalism though, that was a serious point I was making in that simply creating more humans will eventually create more pensioners, who will need more humans etc.

I also don't blame anyone for not wanting to go down that road because life has simply changed in that direction and people want other things to fill it up with

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Again, it's not the pensioners who need more humans, it's the economy, because the economy is a limitless growth model. Anyone advocating for pro-natalism who isn't being up front about the fact (yes) that it's the needs of the economic model driving that perception is either naïve about it or dishonest about it (or a racist or religious nut whose priorities are somewhere equally detached from concrete reality).

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Interested in seeing what kind of arguments I might find, I looked up yer wan you mentioned, Louise Perry (first time hearing of her). In this interview with The Spectator (alarm bells at the ready!), in relation to older people needing to rely on welfare, she calls the welfare state a "Ponzi scheme" and then says "it's already clear that state pensions, the NHS, and the whole welfare state is not sustainable." Doesn't mention the sustainability or otherwise of our economic model itself. Have tried to see if she comments on this, for or against, elsewhere, but no luck yet.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GZSniFfzJZs

So maybe she is also a TERFNAZIERMAHGERD, as you described her, I don't know, it's irrelevant to the subject at hand, but it is pretty clear what side her political bread is buttered on when it comes to the natalism question, and I'm sure she makes herself a tidy little income shilling it.

[The Butcher]

The pro-natalist pyramid scheme!! anything to do with ballooning the population in any shape or form short-medium term is a sure way of degrading quality of life for the rest in the system and devaluing all. To quote Hicks "Remember, short controlled bursts"