The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Caomhaoin]

I think you're definitely overstating the fault of the teacher here. Irrespective of a case of poor judgement, the fallout is on a completely other level. I think Kev is right is pretty much all he's put across here.

The chances of yer man saying 'yeah you are right' or words to that effect are in the millions to one. Never has, never will Limrik nigga

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

If I'm overstating anything, it's the fault of the institution. Who are my employers, incidentally.

[Caomhaoin]

Let Big Winston spell it out for you

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

[Pedrito]

A man was beheaded for showing a picture. Could he have used his brain a bit more and chosen to talk about it rather than show it? Probably. Did he deserve to have his head hacked off him by some scumbag lunatic? No. End of story.

[astfgyl]

I've only read about it on here, but it sounds fucking ridiculous. If the man was beheaded for showing a picture, there is something gone entirely wrong with things. Yeah he should have known the consequences would be bad, but fuck..

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

A man was beheaded for showing a picture. Could he have used his brain a bit more and chosen to talk about it rather than show it? Probably. Did he deserve to have his head hacked off him by some scumbag lunatic? No. End of story.

Could the French government have taken the opportunity after the Charlie Hebdo killings, after the Bataclan killings, etc., to really address the question of why it is so easy in France to radicalize young muslims? Yes. And if they don't take that opportunity now, will this be the end of the story? No.

France is a country where there is a law (which even Jewish academic Chomsky famously opposed in the 70s/80s) making expression of doubt about essentially any aspect of the holocaust illegal, punishable by law. France is also a country which completely glosses over its own crimes of colonization, the biggest part of which occurred in majority muslim nations (and the French grip on those countries is far from released). Colonization is taught first and foremost as a positive influence over the countries where it happened.

You're a young muslim in France, the state constantly tells you colonization was good for your people, but never tells you about all the crimes they committed while they were at it, information which is freely available to you and endlessly discussed in your circles. Your favourite comedian is the subject of a state organized witch-hunt, banned from television, banned from touring, banned from YouTube, banned from Facebook, taken to court repeatedly, because his idea of liberty of expression involves making fun of Zionism. Literally at the same time, the state is defending - under the banner of liberty of expression - the right of some cartoonists to make fun of you. Of course, there are subtleties involved, but since the average late 30s well-educated westerner is apparently incapable of grasping them, why should we expect youths in their late teens or early 20s would either?

This isn't the end of the story because, depending on how the state treat this in the mid- and long-term, it's more likely to make things worse than better. And I can pretty much guarantee that the current government will deal with it in a way that makes it worse. 

In other words, radicalizing young Muslims in France is like shooting fish in a barrel, and the government endlessly arm those who do the radicalizing. We can content ourselves to simply describing the surface of the situation, but that won't help us out of it.

[Pedrito]

Yes it's no coincidence that these attacks are happening in France. I don't know the full reason why but my suspiscion has always been that it is somewhat different to the attacks that have happened elsewhere i.e. it has more to do with France's past in North Africa and colonialims than the ISIS led stuff alone..it's not just hatred of the west and Islamic as such, there's something deeper at play, combined with just pure backward retardation and criminality. Hence my point could be turned on its head. The man doesn't deserve to die, but knowing that this stuff is in the air, he chose the worst possible way to go about making whatever point he was trying to make. So 6 and one and half a dozen of the other and more to come because nothing is changing anytime soon by the looks of things.

[astfgyl]

If it is a particularly french problem, the killing of people over cartoons, could the french perhaps ban religious cartoons of any type and neatly sidestepping the argument of only banning ones of that prophet?

I remember being fascinated by a leaflet in the church as a kid which said "Jesus Saves" and on the back, "but Aldridge scores on the rebound" Can't remember what it was about but it seemed pretty funny to me as a young lad.

[Eoin McLove]

Free speech etc...

[Caomhaoin]

A man was beheaded for showing a picture. Could he have used his brain a bit more and chosen to talk about it rather than show it? Probably. Did he deserve to have his head hacked off him by some scumbag lunatic? No. End of story.

Could the French government have taken the opportunity after the Charlie Hebdo killings, after the Bataclan killings, etc., to really address the question of why it is so easy in France to radicalize young muslims? Yes. And if they don't take that opportunity now, will this be the end of the story? No.

France is a country where there is a law (which even Jewish academic Chomsky famously opposed in the 70s/80s) making expression of doubt about essentially any aspect of the holocaust illegal, punishable by law. France is also a country which completely glosses over its own crimes of colonization, the biggest part of which occurred in majority muslim nations (and the French grip on those countries is far from released). Colonization is taught first and foremost as a positive influence over the countries where it happened.

You're a young muslim in France, the state constantly tells you colonization was good for your people, but never tells you about all the crimes they committed while they were at it, information which is freely available to you and endlessly discussed in your circles. Your favourite comedian is the subject of a state organized witch-hunt, banned from television, banned from touring, banned from YouTube, banned from Facebook, taken to court repeatedly, because his idea of liberty of expression involves making fun of Zionism. Literally at the same time, the state is defending - under the banner of liberty of expression - the right of some cartoonists to make fun of you. Of course, there are subtleties involved, but since the average late 30s well-educated westerner is apparently incapable of grasping them, why should we expect youths in their late teens or early 20s would either?

This isn't the end of the story because, depending on how the state treat this in the mid- and long-term, it's more likely to make things worse than better. And I can pretty much guarantee that the current government will deal with it in a way that makes it worse. 

In other words, radicalizing young Muslims in France is like shooting fish in a barrel, and the government endlessly arm those who do the radicalizing. We can content ourselves to simply describing the surface of the situation, but that won't help us out of it.

Terrorist scum out. I find it bizarre that you immigrate somewhere and expect the gaff to accommodate you.

You and doctor Chomsky can shite on all ye want. Assimilate or fuck off.

[Pedrito]

If it is a particularly french problem, the killing of people over cartoons, could the french perhaps ban religious cartoons of any type and neatly sidestepping the argument of only banning ones of that prophet?

I remember being fascinated by a leaflet in the church as a kid which said "Jesus Saves" and on the back, "but Aldridge scores on the rebound" Can't remember what it was about but it seemed pretty funny to me as a young lad.

In Ireland we voted blasphemy out of our constitution quite recently. So, where would this whole thing stand in Ireland?


We're talking about different things here. Theory, reality and then some sort of community spirt or human kindness level.

I think the teacher was naive from a purely survivalist, 'self defence' point of view. He should have known some gobshite would want to decapitate him for what he did. That's reality.

On a theoretical level he should be able to say what he wants but the reality of the situation is that their country is plagued with these lunatics that are only waiting for any chance to cut someone. On a human level, I don't personally see the reason for a teacher to be pushing the buttons of kids in his class who come from a certain tradition. Again, in no way does he deserve it. A stern talking to and maybe some time off, but, again, why not something less polemical, why that picture when there are kids in the class who will be sensitive to it? Is that how bridges are built?

But, ultimately we're talking about culture clash. A country that has always pushed the boundaries of speech and ideas which has certain people living in it that are completely opposed to their values, who think they can decapitate people in the street for saying things they don't agree with. There's something wrong with that picture.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

It's not about banning cartoons. It's about not celebrating liberty of expression when it's clear as crystal that it doesn't exist for everyone.

[astfgyl]

Yeah I'm all for free speech and all but even I would know better than to be showing around a cartoon like that, given the precedent set there for reactions to such.

Of course anyone rational whatsoever would see the reaction is unjustified, but it exists and so for now I guess folk will have to live (well...) with it. I would be of the opinion that those who wish to live in a foreign country do their bit to assimilate into the culture of that country. If I go to an Islamic country and they have customs, I would be expected to follow them.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

That's not what I meant. Liberty of expression doesn't exist in France. Had a teacher done any level of equivalent thing with respect to Jews or gays or blacks, he would have been suspended or fired the next day. Any French person who takes a second to imagine that hypothetical situation knows it. Had the same thing happened to this teacher, he could well still be alive today. Instead, the institution said he had done nothing wrong, and everyone in the "cité" and "banlieu" Muslim communities knows it wouldn't have gone down that way if the shoe were on the other foot. It's not anodyne that the murderer (and he is nothing more than that) addressed his crime personally to Macron.

[astfgyl]

Ah I see. I was sort of getting at that with the initial suggestion of not taking the piss out of any of the religions by using cartoons with a sort of goose/gander idea, but if it is that way for everything except Islam then that isn't fair either, especially given the reputation these lads have for taking extreme umbrage with it.