The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The language is a bit stuffy, but you could read Isaiah Berlin's essay Two Concepts of Liberty if you're interested in the foundations of the wider discussion you're simultaneously trying to have and avoid:

https://archive.org/details/Two_Concepts_Of_Liberty_Isaiah_Berlin_1958.pdf

I answered most of your questions, just not the one about the cats and dogs, because - as I explained with an illustration - I think it's a silly question, a hypothetical red herring when what's being discussed is very real.

[astfgyl]

I'll read that but you've avoided the very direct questions I asked more than once. Hopefully it's interesting. How have I avoided the wider discussion by trying to look at it from both perspectives?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

What both perspectives? Your question about cats and dogs isn't Enoch Burke's perspective, it's whataboutism. Enoch Burke is all about his view of sexual depravity, end of days, book of Revelations stuff. There's nothing about cats and dogs. He would probably be nicer to someone who thought they were a cat because he would think that they are mentally ill rather than a vessel of satan.

[astfgyl]

These ones. Not a cat or dog in em

Should people who want to change their name be forced to do so legally before another person is forced to refer to them as that name, on pain of suspension from their job (because the prison bit is entirely of his own making, I think we can all see that)?

How far is too far when forcing others to comply with one's dysphoria? Where would you personally draw the line?

Has Burke equal right not to be discriminated against for his religious beliefs as the student has not to be discriminated for their sexuality, and how would you break the impasse in such a situation?

Or is that too much whataboutery?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

1. Should a person have to legally change their name before someone else is forced (by who?) to refer to them as that name? Answer is no. One can start using a preferred name (again, all this predates current debates on gender transitioning, etc.) at any point. If I get employed under the name Paddy and someone I work with insists, against my expressed wishes, on referring to me by my "real" name Séamus, I would have a legitimate grievance to petition with the employer as a form of harassment. Just the same as if a colleague was referring to me as "dickhead" or anything else I didn't want to be referred to as. I brought up the legal thing only to say that gender transitioning has changed nothing about ease of changing one's name, legally or not, in Ireland. Along with the UK, we're very easy about that.

2. This is literally the cat/dog question and pure whataboutism. We're talking about people born of one biological sex (though sometimes two) who do not identify with the gender they were assigned. I personally have no problem "complying" (this in itself is an odd word choice, I would say "respect") with whatever gender and name someone presents themselves to me as. All gender dysphoria and gender transitioning is within my line, without me needing to know where that line is actually drawn (that's the irrelevant whataboutism).

3. This has been answered many times over: Burke wasn't discriminated against for his religious beliefs, but yes he does have an equal right not to be discriminated against for them. Which is fine, because he hasn't been.

[astfgyl]

There's more than one type of dysphoria. It could be argued that Burke is suffering from a social type. The answer to the first question is fair enough, the second one is not whataboutery no matter how many times you say it is because the same thing will come up over and over and soon-to-be smarter than Burke will take up the mantle, the third one, Burke is saying this is the case so how does one get around that, all things being equal? These are real things that will become more common as things progress it deserves a bit of discussion but I'm done with it, there's no middle ground in your views to go on. Edit: I don't mean your views in general but if there's any lefty position you'll defend it to the hilt no matter what so it'll get circular if we keep going is all rather than me getting ratty about it

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

He acted in a way absolutely unbecoming of a teacher, someone who is supposed to look after the well-being of minors and be an example to them, not make them the target of his ranting in front of everyone involved with the school. He seems to have done all these acts because of his radical religious beliefs (whereby he knows the opinion of God even on things not mentioned in scripture), but he was "discriminated against" (actually, just disciplined in a totally normal way and via totally normal channels) for acting in this way. He has conflated these two things. The school and the courts and most of us here can see that it's two different things: his beliefs (not discriminated for... he's been working there for years with no trouble) and his acts (disciplined for, because no teacher should act that way, regardless of their personal beliefs).

[Caomhaoin]

Liz Truss has given all the top jobs to people who aren't white men! They'll have the cost of living and energy crisis sorted by the morns morn:)

[astfgyl]

He acted in a way absolutely unbecoming of a teacher, someone who is supposed to look after the well-being of minors and be an example to them, not make them the target of his ranting in front of everyone involved with the school. He seems to have done all these acts because of his radical religious beliefs (whereby he knows the opinion of God even on things not mentioned in scripture), but he was "discriminated against" (actually, just disciplined in a totally normal way and via totally normal channels) for acting in this way. He has conflated these two things. The school and the courts and most of us here can see that it's two different things: his beliefs (not discriminated for... he's been working there for years with no trouble) and his acts (disciplined for, because no teacher should act that way, regardless of their personal beliefs).

I actually agree with all of that but I was interested in the moral discussion around the idea in general rather than agreeing with Burke in any way. He won't come out of it with any sort of victory or martyrdom anyway

[Caomhaoin]

What both perspectives? Your question about cats and dogs isn't Enoch Burke's perspective, it's whataboutism. Enoch Burke is all about his view of sexual depravity, end of days, book of Revelations stuff. There's nothing about cats and dogs. He would probably be nicer to someone who thought they were a cat because he would think that they are mentally ill rather than a vessel of satan.

A sexual deviant is overseeing the Biden administration's Monkeypox policy.

[astfgyl]

I shouldn't be getting back into this at all but I've just read that the student wasn't actually in any of Burke's classes. Wow.

Ok what are we being distracted from, or should I ask that in the conspiracy thread?

We've certainly forgotten all about the crooked property dealings of members of government parties, there's that for starters. Anything else we're forgetting about?

[Yung Led Zeppelin]

What

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I shouldn't be getting back into this at all but I've just read that the student wasn't actually in any of Burke's classes. Wow.

This was mentioned a couple of times in the thread. There was a link to an article about it:

https://twitter.com/NoonanJoe/status/1567541294389395456?s=19

Yer man saw an opportunity to go on a very public crusade, and the ultimate target of that crusade was a pupil, most likely a minor, at the school he's a teacher at. The school went fairly easy on him tbh.

[astfgyl]

What

Which part?

[astfgyl]

I shouldn't be getting back into this at all but I've just read that the student wasn't actually in any of Burke's classes. Wow.

This was mentioned a couple of times in the thread. There was a link to an article about it:

https://twitter.com/NoonanJoe/status/1567541294389395456?s=19

Yer man saw an opportunity to go on a very public crusade, and the ultimate target of that crusade was a pupil, most likely a minor, at the school he's a teacher at. The school went fairly easy on him tbh.

Yeah that's me done with this one