Are we all fucked?

[Emphyrio]

We must set up a roster here for who's going to get into an argument with you.

As I'm not pencilled in this week I just want to point out that the initial argument was about students etc not getting accommodation and the homeless still without a home and the fact that, while the Ukrainians are not the main reason, have exacerbated the situation. This is plainly obvious, and this is from someone who would be happy to have them here IF we were in a position to do so, which we are not. You give historical reasons for things being the way they are rather than offering an opinion about what you think should be done, as things currently are. It's your modus operandi in a huge majority of your arguments. As Hellfire, quite correctly points out, it's ideology over opinion.

Anyway, I'm out til I've been rostered a slot.

[hellfire]

Didn't all this start because I suggested a more sensible approach to managing immigration? I brought it up in the context of the housing crisis. Trimming the fat so that only those working could remain.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

What do I think should be done, as things currently are, I have repeated several times; proper development projects outside of Dublin where people have access to both housing and employment. That's what everyone paying attention has been saying is needed for the last 20 years. This is the real issue, the oldest issue, the most serious issue, the deepest issue. Not immigration. Immigration is a handy new thing to distract people from the fact that the same two parties have been filling their own pockets rather than doing their jobs for time immemorial now. Want to trim fat? Look in the right fucking places.

[hellfire]

We must set up a roster here for who's going to get into an argument with you.

As I'm not pencilled in this week I just want to point out that the initial argument was about students etc not getting accommodation and the homeless still without a home and the fact that, while the Ukrainians are not the main reason, have exacerbated the situation. This is plainly obvious, and this is from someone who would be happy to have them here IF we were in a position to do so, which we are not. You give historical reasons for things being the way they are rather than offering an opinion about what you think should be done, as things currently are. It's your modus operandi in a huge majority of your arguments. As Hellfire, quite correctly points out, it's ideology over opinion.

Anyway, I'm out til I've been rostered a slot.

I'm out for the rest of the week. Every now and again I get lured back in by the garish falsity of one of his arguments.

"Never play chess with a pigeon.

The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.

Then shits all over the board.

Then struts around like it won."

[Caomhaoin]

How much immigration into the gaff is too much?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

this is from someone who would be happy to have them here IF we were in a position to do so
...
As Hellfire, quite correctly points out, it's ideology over opinion.

If that first statement is genuine, then you should realize it puts you at odds with the source of hellfire's arguments, which seem to be first and foremost about ethnicity and culture rather than possibility to accommodate (see, for example, his reference to the percentage of, quote, "white British" people left in London, etc.). That is his ideology, and expressions like "trimming the fat" when talking about immigrants who don't have work should make that ideology very, very evident.

[Emphyrio]

Genuine refugees etc have my sympathy, but flying them over here in enormous numbers is counterproductive on several levels. We can't house our own population, students can't get a gaff and clogging up hotels at eye watering expense in small town Ireland is a recipe for disaster.

If that first statement is genuine, then you should realize it puts you at odds with the source of hellfire's arguments, which seem to be first and foremost about ethnicity and culture rather than possibility to accommodate

I could very well be at odds with Hellfire but you're conflating two different points. I was addressing Kev's perfectly valid point but you went off on a tangent again. The Ukranian situation is different to migration because you'd hope, for their benefit, that they will eventually have a home to return to.

As it happens, I do disagree with Hellfire and others who maybe are less pro-EU than myself but I can certainly see their points. We need to be careful about the numbers we take in because, as you've mentioned, we can't even take care of our own due to long-term government ineptitude.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

See, from my point of view, the tangent happened when folk started suggesting that the solution involved things that we will never be able to do as members of the EU. "Trimming the fat" via things like obliging people to have "enough money to deport themselves" in their bank account before coming over. The solutions I think the country needs can and should be done in the real world, not in some kind of Irexit fantasy land. And there's nothing radical or revolutionary about them either; proper development, not houses chucked up for easy profit with no plan for infrastructure. And the pricks that did that are still in government.

Ireland's response to the Ukrainian situation is typical performative politics from FF and FG; looks good on the outside, divides the voters and distracts attention from the real issues (i.e. the pricks in government themselves) on the inside. All I've been saying is that the numbers of people aren't the core problem. And all I've been dealing with is the Irish numbers, not London or Cologne, or wherever. Properly governed and managed, Ireland would not have a housing crisis at the moment, even with current numbers of immigrants, even including the Ukrainian refugees.

[astfgyl]

Didn't all this start because I suggested a more sensible approach to managing immigration? I brought it up in the context of the housing crisis. Trimming the fat so that only those working could remain.

Will never happen here, we're the best boys in Europe. It's become the far right to even bring it up, which is unfortunate. I'm not against immigration either that'd be just too ironic for an Irishman but coming over on the relative gravy train has to be wrong when Irish with 2 jobs struggle to make ends meet. We'll virtue signal ourselves into the abyss the way we're going unfortunately, as will a lot of Western Europe. I don't see the political will to solve it either other than fringe parties but the longer it goes unaddressed the more residents of their own countries will be driven to the fringe to have their voices represented and that's not a good thing because the answer is mostly in the centre.

See, from my point of view, the tangent happened when folk started suggesting that the solution involved things that we will never be able to do as members of the EU. "Trimming the fat" via things like obliging people to have "enough money to deport themselves" in their bank account before coming over. The solutions I think the country needs can and should be done in the real world, not in some kind of Irexit fantasy land. And there's nothing radical or revolutionary about them either; proper development, not houses chucked up for easy profit with no plan for infrastructure. And the pricks that did that are still in government.

Ireland's response to the Ukrainian situation is typical performative politics from FF and FG; looks good on the outside, divides the voters and distracts attention from the real issues (i.e. the pricks in government themselves) on the inside. All I've been saying is that the numbers of people aren't the core problem. And all I've been dealing with is the Irish numbers, not London or Cologne, or wherever. Properly governed and managed, Ireland would not have a housing crisis at the moment, even with current numbers of immigrants, even including the Ukrainian refugees.

That's not badly put but unless something serious is done straight away and we know it won't be, the bad feeling will continue to grow. That we brought it on ourselves over the years can't be denied either and we'd need some sort of revolution to change it, which I don't think the shinners walking the next election will turn out to be as they are equally for rolling out the red carpet.

So what do we do? Is forming militias such an unattractive prospect after all? Stay tuned for another couple of years of the government boot stamping on the Irish face and that won't sound so outlandish.

I'd be tempted by the sound of irexit myself at this stage as much as I know that wouldn't work well. It's just how fucked things are looking

[hellfire]

That's not badly put but unless something serious is done straight away and we know it won't be, the bad feeling will continue to grow.

Then you end up with card carrying Nazis being serious contestants in elections. Like what hapenned in Germany, Sweden, Italy, Greece and others. The debate around immigration is seen as binary. You're either extremely for or against. Clowns like the Shepherd here make it impossible for people to properly discuss anything.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I apologize if my pragmatic attachment to the real world is an obstacle to proper discussion of fantasy immigration policies that will keep Ireland white.

We are an EU member. Swallow that pill, as hard as it may be, and if you want proper discussion of how to deal with immigration, do so pragmatically, within what is possible inside that very, very concrete constraint. Ireland is not leaving the EU in our lifetimes, I'd put money on it.

[Caomhaoin]

Unlike gender, there is no good reason for a binary, and I believe only one poster adheres to one. Immigration is a healthy and ancient fact of life, it's always been around and it always will be.

Nevertheless, what's happening in Europe since 2015 is alarming and unsustainable, and it will become even more so. Only the globalist elite from the WEH and their useful idiot disciples could possibly disagree.

The transient and large Eastern European boyz were quite easily absorbed, as the vast majority came to work, and many fucked off home once they had the price of a house (ha, one polish lad said Irish people are ugly and stupid with money but thanks for the house). Very few voices were raised by the DUNDUN FAR RIGHT because it wasn't causing any real issues. They served a purpose, and the country to them, a net benefit. There can be no similar argument made for the current situation.

'Theresnooodooootabooooottha', as Sir Alec used to say.

Rural development/decentralisation etc is like communism and renewable energy. Sounds nice, but pie in the sky and unworkable, at least in the short to medium term. I'd argue that it's unpragmatic in the extreme.

How would you even begin to do that? I don't disagree with the sentiment, per se, but I can't see it.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The Poles came over during and contributed to the bubble. They only started leaving when it burst. Kinda essential information you omitted there Kev. Before the burst, the general sentiment was that they were here to stay, since there was no reason at the time to return home. And then POP! Very few voices were raised by the FAR RIGHT because everyone was laughing. Except the voices saying what was coming. Who were not on the far right, no.

[astfgyl]

That's not badly put but unless something serious is done straight away and we know it won't be, the bad feeling will continue to grow.

Then you end up with card carrying Nazis being serious contestants in elections. Like what hapenned in Germany, Sweden, Italy, Greece and others. The debate around immigration is seen as binary. You're either extremely for or against. Clowns like the Shepherd here make it impossible for people to properly discuss anything.

I can't see the issue with being a left leaning country and having sensible immigration policies I really can't but I don't even think it's in our hands here as part of the EU. I certainly don't see how being left leaning as I generally am that I must be happy with a free for all and I know word on the street is not a happy one around the current situation. As you say, the centrists will be leaning to the right if they think this is the left and that's not a good thing when some populist racist prick becomes the attractive option.

I do agree with the shepherd that we'll never get out of the EU though so there'll be trouble ahead for sure

[hellfire]

I apologize if my pragmatic attachment to the real world is an obstacle to proper discussion of fantasy immigration policies that will keep Ireland white.

I apologize if my pragmatic attachment to the real world is an obstacle to proper discussion of fantasy immigration policies that will keep Ireland white.

We are an EU member. Swallow that pill, as hard as it may be, and if you want proper discussion of how to deal with immigration, do so pragmatically, within what is possible inside that very, very concrete constraint. Ireland is not leaving the EU in our lifetimes, I'd put money on it.

Talking about you, not to you. You've had enough fun for one day. I'm sure you'll find someone else to torment, my watch has ended.