Tropes, Clichés, metal group think

[astfgyl]

I think it's kinda telling that they replaced Max the vocalist but not Max the rhythm guitarist. Sure Paolo Jr. didn't record his own bass tracks until Chaos AD because Kisser did it instead.

As far as I'm concerned, Sepultura is Kisser's band.

Sure Max had ne'er a string on his anyway so there was nothing to replace

[Cosmic_Equilibrium]

I love Robinson's production, you can hear everything correctly, the drums are fucking huge.

He's an interesting one for this thread, I've always heard how he makes band's sound polished and blah blah blah. Isn't sounding polished the goal of getting him in as a producer?

I remember someone I knew complaining that ATD-I's 'Relationship of Command' was clean-sounding. Yeah, they're a moderately successful commercial band, this is their breakthrough record and the one that you first heard... so job done?

I can't speak for the ATD-I record as I've not heard much of it but Ross Robinson was if I recall the quintessential nu metal producer, and as such I associate him with records that sound muddy and crap with no dynamics or interesting ambience. Roots is a prime example, the production is woeful. I also don't think his antagonistic studio working methods did much to soothe the growing disharmony in the band at the time.

Then again, Roots is an abysmal album in general. The tribal influences and sounds are by far the most interesting part of it, adding welcome dynamics and textures to the record. The problem is that the music played by  Sepultura themselves is dire.

There have been mentions in this thread of Seps taking on various influences over their career, reflected in their touring partners etc. Chaos AD was a good example of this working well - it got derided by the thrash purists, but that was my first introduction to Sepultura and it's a truly great album with some thought-provoking lyrics and a real sense of driving, righteous anger and standing up to injustice, worked in with tribal and other influences. It's still a classic of the 90s I think.

With Roots, though, the primary influence is blatantly Korn. I don't know whose idea it was to go down this road, but I'm willing to bet it was Max's. He seems in general to have lost his mind or had some kind of breakdown in the mid 90s, as all of a sudden he started dressing like Jonathan Davis, downtuning and writing simplistic riffs, and taking on the nu-metal approach of vocal screaming. The result is one of the fastest artistic declines of any band I can think of. Apart from Roots Bloody Roots and Spit the whole album is just a complete dirge, full of Korn style downtuned guitars, two-note riffs and no hooks or exciting moments. The absolute nadir is the complete mess that is Lookaway - just dire.

The lyrics aren't great either, they again highlight social injustice but not in the 'raise your fists' attitude of Chaos AD, instead taking on a much more bleak/nihilistic tone. This vibe carries over into the album in general. BTR/Arise/Chaos AD had anger and bleakness, but they seem to be much more cathartic listening experiences. Roots is just claustrophobic and depressing, and there seems to be very little catharsis at all. There's just no direction or velocity to the record, it's dreary and oppressive.

Some people claim it isn't a nu-metal album, but it so blatantly is. IMO Sepultura went from leaders to followers almost overnight with this album, and full credit to the band for recovering from it and producing worthwhile music again since then. Max himself seemed not to really recover from this period until about 2004/05 when Soulfly suddenly stopped remaking Roots endlessly and started producing stuff of merit.

[Cosmic_Equilibrium]

Back to the topic in hand, I've noticed that in music in general it sometimes becomes the fashion to not cite a band's most popular record as its best one as that's "the easy choice". The problem is that sometimes the most obvious choice is the correct one.

A prime example is Nirvana. Critical lists tend to just include Nevermind, so in response there's been something of a move towards In Utero being the "connoisseur's choice" and the band's true masterpiece (some people also go further and say Bleach is the best as it's the rawest). While my own personal favourite is the Unplugged album, I got into this frame of mind so gave Nevermind and In Utero a relisten. Nope. Despite the (very strong) high points of In Utero, Nevermind is the better album in terms of flow, consistency of songwriting, production and the overall package. I have to go with the critical consensus on this one, no matter how "unoriginal" it might be.

Other bands this applies to for me are Pearl Jam (Ten is by far their best from what I've heard), Led Zeppelin (used to go along with the thoughts of some critics that LZ I was the best, but eventually had to admit it's Physical Graffiti, followed by LZ IV), and Primordial (TTND is their high point, and also what got me into the band in the first place).

Sometimes the most popular album is popular because it really is the band's masterpiece.

[Eoin McLove]

I have no comment to make on any of the other bands but for me,  Spirit the Earth Aflame was my introduction to Primordial and I'd consider it their best.  Might be a case of whichever album you happened to jump in on?

TTND is a great album but I think TGW is more interesting (from that newer style they moved into) and I think the most recent one is better as well.  I haven't listened to TTND in years, in fact.  I should remedy that.

[Ducky]

Interesting take there, CE. I agree and disagree.

In Utero is legitimately my fave Nirvana album (and it has my favourite songs of theirs - Milk It, Heart-Shaped Box and Tourette's) as I just prefer the messier style of it. I'm not shitting on Nevermind, I still listen to it and it's still a 9/10 experience. I do agree that there are people that do shit on it though. I knew a guy that didn't consider it a "true" Nirvana album... what the actual fuck? And if you didn't know Sappy then you weren't a "real" fan. Fuck off, mate.

At the same time I consider albums like Ten, Master of Puppets, Reign in Blood, etc. to be their respective bands' best albums.

[astfgyl]

I don't see anything wrong with Nevermind whatsoever. The only reason anyone says anything bad about it is because Kurt Cobain said he felt it was too polished and all of the lads who can't think for themselves jumped on to that bandwagon. I place all of the Nirvana albums on equal footing as I know them inside out and I'm no longer able to be objective about them. Sappy is some tune by the way.

[Blackout]

I love Nevermind but In Utero to me is the best Nirvana album in terms of songwriting and pure raw anger. Nevermind was definitely the most radio friendly.

I've never rated Bleach.

[Ducky]

I never quite understood that comment about Nevermind sounding polished - In Utero is just as polished sounding, it's the style of song writing that sounds different.

[Eoin McLove]

Nevermind is way more polished than In Utero. The production is grea. It really works and a noisier production wouldn't improve it to my ear,  but In Utero sounds rougher around the edges.

[astfgyl]

Any of you ever listen to the Smart Studio sessions from pre Nevermind? They are a bit rougher and sound great. Chad Channing on the drums for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jblV4B1YsLg

[open face surgery]

I'll go a step further and bring up the Ted Ed Fred demo. Dale Crover drumming. A masterpiece. They used the versions from this for Bleach and the Incesticide comp. I think Downer was rerecorded. There was a much higher quality version of this on youtube but can't find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc811RZqtGo

[open face surgery]

Also there was a video made for If You Must:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRRdmo1KK5k

And Paper Cuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2dcjXpgIlc

[astfgyl]

I've actually never seen those two videos before. I actually only discovered lately that Crover played on a lot of Bleach via the demos. I had always just thought it was rerecorded with Channing on it all.

I remember as a young fella I couldn't get enough Nirvana no matter what and the likes of those videos would have been like the holy grail. Any version of any song with even the slightest difference from the album take and I'd have been all over it like a rash. I had a shitty quality bootleg called Outcesticide that I wore away to nothing listening to it. They had a cover of a song called D7 on there and I used to think it was the most energetic thing I'd ever heard

[Carnage]

D7 was a Wioers cover, B-side to Lithium. Cracking tune, their best cover IMO. I always liked the original version of In Bloom, I think it was on a Sub Pop sampler. It had a more scuzzy, 'grungy' sound to it:

https://youtu.be/xAy---wp_DQ

[astfgyl]

I never cease to be amazed at how many great B-Sides Nirvana have had over the years. I feel we have finally heard the lot though with the last thing of him messing around on his guitar at home a couple of years ago.

I used to love that feeling of knowing with any given band that there was a goldmine of stuff I'd never heard before. Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails have so much stuff like that, and it used to be right difficult to track down. That really added to the mystique around getting into bands back in the day. Bit too easy to hear everything by anyone ever now, but I'd still rather be able to listen to it all than not.

Speaking of group think, I wonder how much of Nirvana's enduring popularity is down to the fact that he shot himself? Would we see the albums in a different light now if there had been subsequent releases and changes in direction/personnel over the years. The fact they were so short-lived sort of lends a timelessness to the music in a way. Maybe if they had simply called it a day after In Utero and never came back it would have had the same effect..