Coronavirus

[Ducky]

Masks aren't useless though. Outdoors - sure, it's a case of the fresh air being of a gigantic enough volume to make the risk negligible, but indoors is another story where the air isn't refreshed and recycled enough. You might be nipping into Dunnes for ten minutes, but the poor fucks working there are stuck there for eight hours a day and are exposed to the exhalations of half the town for their troubles.

I'm by no means an expert, but I think I've had enough of a third level education in both virology and microbiology to say I think erring on the side of caution is the best way to go. The dopes in the Dail may be chasing their tails and sending mixed messages, but I have enough of a head on me shoulders to say "I don't need official guidelines to exercise caution".

They're sending mixed messages because they're human and they also don't have a clue what they should do... To take an Alan Moore quote out of context - "the world is rudderless".

[Pedrito]

Yeah man, I forget I live in Spain sometimes and my issues are probably not yours. We have to wear masks in the street. A total pain in the hole and completely useless. I have no problem wearing them indoors. I find my mind changing on the whole thing constantly. There is definitely media driven hype and scaremongering going on that is in no way connected to the real issue and real fears, but I think it colours the response of flakey politicians. People aren't sheep to want to protect themselves or their loved ones, quite the opposite in fact. It would just be great to get some real, levelheaded messaging on the whole thing. Even the numbers that are coming out have all sorts of caveats attached to them.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I work in a research institute and mask wearing has been made obligatory in all spaces, including for lab heads in their individual offices. Why? Because if you have to wear it all the time, it'll be on you when someone happens into close contact with you (steps into office to ask something, walks too close by you on street, jogger heaving and puffing as they slide past, etc.), and there's also little risk of you leaving that individual space to go into a collective (or enclosed) one and forgetting. Of course, in Spain it is a bit odd since all the bars are open and everyone is sitting there unmasked at their tables, but in Ireland that's not the case. In Spain I would have to say that the gap between street policy and bar/café policy is ridiculous...and maybe that explains the current infection rate (I'm actually in Spain at the moment). Bars are full of young people acting in no way differently to before, and it's spreading among that population. In France I think it's the same. But in Ireland, where the bars are closed, the young people are just meeting up anyway. A niece of mine who's 23 says they regularly meet up to session in whatever gaff is free in groups of 15 or so; sure what else are they going to do??

The mask makes sound enough sense, but it's not going to get young people acting sensibly; at best it'll become an accessory to them. But at least imposing it as much as possible means that vulnerable populations (and there are a LOT of them) feel comfortable going for a walk into town, going to do the shopping, etc.

In short, most of us can act more or less as we like (except for the pub issue in Ireland) since we're not worried for ourselves, and this fact is borne out precisely by the rise in cases in our demographic across Europe. So just wear the mask when you're asked to, knowing the idea is to protect and also reassure those who believe/know they'd be fucked if the wrong person coughed on them.

[Pedrito]

I get the logic but the question is does mask wearing actually work? I'm reading and hearing so many conflicting reports. If it doesn't work then it makes no sense to wear them if it's only there to make people feel better. I have no problem wearing one if it actually works. But that's the million dollar question.

[Juggz]

Does a mask stop you getting the virus? No. Does the mask lessen the chance of you passing it on? Yes. That has been fairly consistent since they advised people to wear them here.

[Pedrito]

Plenty arguments to the contrary is my point and, as said, no problem wearing them if it stops others getting it.

[Juggz]

Got any links?

[Pedrito]

Not related to masks and definitely not related to Ivor Cummins but this interview exploded here a couple of weeks ago..it's the only translation I can find. Just to put numbers in context: Madrid has a population of 6.6m people and it's suspected another possible million live here who are not registered. It's an eyeopening interview with someone on the frontline and not a journalist or politician with agendas in place.

https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

[Ducky]

Ignoring the lower turnover of air in buildings, masks absolutely slow the spread as they partially mitigate an infected person breathing on everything.

It lasts for what, over 24 hours on surfaces? Look at somewhere like a supermarket where there's a large volume of people in close proximity to the various surfaces of shelving, fridges, etc. Most places wipe down all those fixed surfaces on the regular, but what about those products out on the shelves?

They're there long enough for countless people to breathe on them, so anything that mitigates that is good.

[astfgyl]

I notice that those who aren't convinced by the mask situation aren't calling for the wearing of masks to be abolished, and that those who do advocate the use of them have no problem with making outlaws out of those who don't want to. How many here were wearing the masks before they were mandatory? Not in work or anything, just nipping in for a loaf of bread or whatnot?

I don't mind if people want to wear them whatsoever, in fact I wear it every time I go anywhere that requires it. I don't like the idea that it isn't being questioned and is being forced on everyone when there is no published study on their efficacy. These things should be questioned all of the time. I was speaking to a fella the other day, and he said to me did I not think the masks work and I said the jury is out as far as I'm concerned (we were both wearing them at the time btw) and he told me he had proof they do work. What is it? I said... He comes back with well you see all those people wearing them?... I do says I... Well they are alive so that proves that the masks do work. This is the sort of logic I meet every day. It is akin to arguing with the born agains about god.

Everybody is suddenly claiming to be driven by science but the science doesn't seem to be getting put through the proper scrutiny. Nobody wants to cast a critical eye on it at all, and those who do are lumped in with the ancient aliens crowd, despite the fact there is no proof that they are right or wrong so far.

What I would like to see is a proper comparison of wearing them vs not wearing them. It doesn't exist unfortunately. Anyway, the masks aren't such a big deal to me, I'm willing to play along and was willing before it became compulsory, too. I don't want to get caught up in the idea of being anti mask. I am against the criminalisation of those who don't wish to play along though.

And lastly, someone said here stay home play the playstation drink a few cans what is the big deal? No big deal, and I couldn't give a fuck about the pub really either as I only go there about twice a year as it is. It is the collateral damage being done which concerns me a lot more. So far as I see it there are 2 approaches to this that "work". The NZ model of isolating the entire country, or the Swedish model of following health advice in an otherwise open country. Both of which offer more freedom and less economic damage to their citizens but neither of which are being considered here.

[Pedrito]

Yep, agree with all of that. I've no problem wearing a mask, like with so much nowadays, you hint towards a certain cynicism and you're put in a box. Now, the opposite sheep bullshit is true too and none of it helps and it's just a further indication as to how unused to discussion and having opposing opinions people have become.

[Ducky]

There's "no proof" because pushing peer-reviewed scientific studies out to Joe Public isn't going to accomplish shit. These are the guys and gals that are far more qualified to give an opinion on the matter, why aren't they trusted? When you're told as a kid don't put a nail into a socket do you heed the advice or do you put one in because you're skeptical?

I'm not saying don't question things or that skepticism is bad, but at what point do you have to concede that you don't really understand what's going on and they maybe you should listen to those in the know?

It took about half a second to Google "efficacy of face masks" and have a report from the CDC with a tonne of references to studies pop up.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html#recent-studies

[astfgyl]

Not related to masks and definitely not related to Ivor Cummins but this interview exploded here a couple of weeks ago..it's the only translation I can find. Just to put numbers in context: Madrid has a population of 6.6m people and it's suspected another possible million live here who are not registered. It's an eyeopening interview with someone on the frontline and not a journalist or politician with agendas in place.

https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w

This is the sort of thing I have been getting at, and I'm glad someone in his position has the bollix to open their mouths and say it. In fact, the likes of the masks argument only serves as a distraction and I am as guilty as anyone of getting caught up in that argument. What he is saying is the same as what is happening here in our country.

[astfgyl]

There's "no proof" because pushing peer-reviewed scientific studies out to Joe Public isn't going to accomplish shit. These are the guys and gals that are far more qualified to give an opinion on the matter, why aren't they trusted? When you're told as a kid don't put a nail into a socket do you heed the advice or do you put one in because you're skeptical?

I'm not saying don't question things or that skepticism is bad, but at what point do you have to concede that you don't really understand what's going on and they maybe you should listen to those in the know?

It took about half a second to Google "efficacy of face masks" and have a report from the CDC with a tonne of references to studies pop up.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html#recent-studies

I see all of those studies there. Have you read them?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Good interview Pedrito...not directly about mask wearing, but to my mind he just says the situation as it is. I've been reading up folk in Belgium and France saying essentially the same thing. As for masks:

Here's a recent for:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent#:~:text=But%20health%20experts%20say%20the,people%20wearing%20masks%2C%20the%20better.

And a recent (though not as recent) against (involving Carl Heneghan):
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-politics/

Both worth reading. Some interesting differences in approach to epidemiology; see if you can spot them. They involve that the two positions are talking past each other in a way that's worth trying to understand.