The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[hellfire]

You've been squaking on about it as if it had a physical cause for about three pages now. It does not in so far as anyone knows. There are many illness's that there is no effective treatment for. That doesn't mean you go making shit up.  As I also said I use the name to avoid pronoun drama.  Your shit talk about endocrine systems, central nervous systems and brain chemistry was designed to have people believe  that the causes were physical. As usual you hammer a point until it is proven wrong and then start off on another bullshit tangent.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I'm a neuroscientist; I and the entire community I work with believe everything has, if not a physical cause, then at least a physical correlate.

[hellfire]

Try to wait until your theories are supported by facts and evidence before your next outburst. Presenting things as science when they are untested hypotheses at best does nothing but discredit you as a scientist. The constant walls of nonsense you put on here "might be this" or "could be that" only serve to misdirect every conversation we have here. That's a tactic employed by liars and not scientists.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Try to wait until your theories are supported by facts and evidence before your next outburst. Presenting things as science when they are untested hypotheses at best does nothing but discredits you as a scientist. The constant walls of nonsense you put on here "might be this" or "could be that" only serve to misdirect every conversation we have here. That's a tactic employed by liars and not scientists.

Dude, you have asserted - with no evidence or facts whatsoever to back it up - that gender dysphoria is "only" a "mental disorder." I have put forward that, since everything else from depression to autism to dementia to schizophrenia and on and on, have been found to often have physical neurobiological underpinnings, we have no reason to believe that gender dysphoria also doesn't, and especially not just because we haven't found them yet. That means that, for the moment, neither you nor I can assert with confidence for or against. You are the one proclaiming with certainty. Can you perhaps give me an example of some other "mental disorder" that is "only" that and has no physical cause or underpinning?

You want a scientific post-it to help you in future? "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." There, stick it to your fridge. Do you have evidence of absence of physical causes of gender dysphoria? No, you do not. Is there evidence for genetic factors and endocrine dysregulation factors playing a causal role? A little so far, yes.   

You don't get to dictate how people who have gender dysphoria should be treated because you have decided that they "just" have a mental problem, especially since without knowing - or caring for that matter - about the fundamental nature of the "mental" disorder (delusional? dissociative? other?), how would you know if you were applying the appropriate "mental" treatment? You wouldn't, and that is most likely why the history of treating it as "just something in the mind" has been a failure. A failure. It is your theory that has no facts or evidence to back it up, other than a kind of folk idea that men are men and women are women, and anyone denying their own genital identity must therefore be mental. Great, thanks for the insight, I'm sure it will be of great clinical use.

[Ollkiller]

I also think all these trans things, homosexuality etc are disorders. Mental or physical I don't know. But a disorder and a type of deviancy for sure.

Not getting I evolved in any trans debate. I'll call anyone whatever the fuck they want to be called. Dosent put me up or down.

But care to explain how homosexuality is deviant behaviour. How do you come to that realisation. Is it a religious mindset or some other view.

[astfgyl]

It's not deviance for the lads and lasses doing it! In fact I'd be surprised if it wasn't just the norm

[hellfire]

Didn't we debate the gender dtsphoria entry in the DSM V and the previous entry of gender identity disorder in the DSM IV? Is that manual used by surgeons? I also have no compelling evidence that unicorns don't exist. They don't exist because there is no evidence that they do. It is currently treated as a mental issue. Perhaps in the future it will be treated as a physical issue, no reason to jump the gun by a couple of decades. There could be a different cause entirely.

You're really clinging to your original horseshit again. How sad. More misdirection and throwing shit at a wall hoping some will stick. Back to your stool samples kid. If you do a good job the scientists might let you play with the microscope one day.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Although I have never analyzed a single stool sample in my life, nor would I ever be brought to (although my work does involve a lot of rodent excrement as a bi-product), it's quite telling that you deem it to be some kind of "lower" scientific occupation. Huh-huh, poo, huh-huh!

The issue isn't so much that you presume it is only a mental disorder. The issue is that you believe the solution is persuading these people's "sick" minds that they are in fact men because they have a penis or are in fact women because they don't. That is the kind of therapy that has historically failed, over and over and over and over again, to the extent that it seems highly likely that it is missing something fundamental. What that is exactly, we don't know, but thankfully the focus of therapy is no longer moralistically hell bent on "curing" sinners, much to your chagrin apparently.

[astfgyl]

Do you have one of those little guillotines for the mice?

They disturb me

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

No, they're no longer ethically approved. CO2 or cervical dislocation.

[hellfire]

I don't regard people with mental  disorders as sick or disgusting people. They have actual illnesses that can be debilitating or even fatal. You keep trying to dress up your nonsense in science and it doesn't work. You have made every effort to insinuate that science is on your side when that is simply not the case.  You then lambast people on here (not just in this thread) for ignoring scientific facts. If you are going to do that try to ensure that what you are saying is true and not just something that popped into your head that day. Try to preface things with "I think" or "it could possibly be".

[astfgyl]

No, they're no longer ethically approved. CO2 or cervical dislocation.

Ah fair enough. I saw them in a lab parts catalogue and they freaked me out big time. The little decapitation bags were equally spooky. I reckon even the mice would choose the CO2 at a push

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I don't regard people with mental  disorders as sick or disgusting people. They have actual illnesses that can be debilitating or even fatal. You keep trying to dress up your nonsense in science and it doesn't work. You have made every effort to insinuate that science is on your side when that is simply not the case.  You then lambast people on here (not just in this thread) for ignoring scientific facts. If you are going to do that try to ensure that what you are saying is true and not just something that popped into your head that day. Try to preface things with "I think" or "it could possibly be".

Did I misunderstand that you think people with gender dysphoria are a) sick and that b) the only cure for their particular illness would boil down to somehow bringing their minds back into alignment with the physical genitalia they were born with?

[hellfire]

In my opinion people with gender dysphoria are suffering from a psychiatric condition and it is barbaric to try to treat it with harsh surgical and hormonal treatments. The suicide and suicide ideation rates after these surgeries are alarmingly high. The current wave of operating on the mentally unwell will look as barbaric as those doctors who were performing random operations on psychiatric patients in the 60s.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

You must understand it is hard to take seriously any supposed concern you claim to have for suicide rates, etc., among this population in a discussion which you entered by proudly "mis-gendering" a trans-woman and stating that you're "not bothered" with something which that community holds in high importance. Whatever about operations, which I agree should always be a last resort, I still see no reason - or evidence - to believe that, whatever the nature of the condition (psychological, physical, a mix of both most likely), the correct solution would be to rid an individual of the idea rather than help them to accept, assume, and live it, which can and often is done without surgery of any sort. Again, the real problem is that you, and many like you, seem certain (based on no evidence forthcoming) that what is best for these individuals is that they accept genital reality, end of. Where is the evidence for this position which, furthermore, contributes to your lack of respect, albeit behind their backs, for their individual wishes?