Excuse my ironic subject title but I think there might actually be an interesting discussion to be had in this. I was listening to the Triggered interview with Graham Linehan and, on one hand, I realised how completely out of touch I am with the vast majority of so called issues and the various protagonists in all of these online dramas. On the other hand I realised again how lucky I am to be ignorant of all of this crap.
When I listen to otherwise intelligent people discussing their nightmare experiences on Twitter and how they were banned for saying something as self evident as men are not women or whatever the current state of online unreality deems unworthy, I wonder what the fuck they are doing entering that cesspool of irrationality and hate. The internet has so many amazing uses but it is time we put a stop to social media? Is that even possible at this point?
Maybe the social media model is a phase we need to go through, where people can vomit out their rage and insanity/ inanity and then return to reality? The entire thing seems so- to use a most detestable phrase- toxic. Ironically the effect of bringing people together often seems to result in causing deeper divides between groups.
I wonder if a case might even be made against the so called global community? Could it be that we aren't supposed to be so connected? Perhaps our brains aren't evolved to be exposed to so much conflicting opinion, or conflict on such a scale?
Whenever I hear people discuss the various online dramas it all seems to be petty and fucking grim but then back in the real world things generally tend to tick along as normal (lockdowns and social distancing not withstanding).
Even the banality of Facebook which is set up to place you in a group- think bubble of your peers is mind rottingly awful, a point of view that is difficult to see from the inside and immediately apparent from the outside.
What's the future for this medium? More social division, more lunatic versions of reality and distortions of basic truths or is there hope for the form?
Also, is it even possible to separate online reality from reality reality anymore when online nuttiness has real world effects on people's lives and livelihoods? Do we need to consider making legal distinctions or implement boundaries? Should it be legal for companies to look up prospective employees' online histories? That seems to me to be hugely invasive.
I don't think the problem is that people are exposed to other opinions, I think it's more that the most unqualified, uneducated and ignorant statements are given equal standing to truth and insight, all with zero consequence to the idiot behind the keyboard. That has never happened before. The unqualified rarely got exposure beyond their immediate circle. Now, there is a global platform for them in the pocket of most of the population of the planet, a direct channel to the world. Crazy. What's worse is that the platforms these baseless idiocies are posted on will push whatever is paid for or what "goes viral" (how apt) regardless of the content.
It's interesting that there are parallel movements of extreme tolerance along with exterme intolerance, frequently coming from the mouths of the same people, in this age of being exposed to multiple opinions. I think poeople are being exposed less to contrasting opinions other than in headline form with no concept of understanding the reasoning behind it. It's dangerous. Extreme tolerance in an intolerant way is still intolerance. There seems to be little capacity to step back and think. That's bad news for everyone.
For personal context, I was on Facebook for about a year, at the behest of a mate who badgered me for a long time. It was horrible. Relentless desperate "LOOK AT ME!!!" attention and approval seeking of such a morbidly curious nature to keep you scrolling down. The crunch was a friend in his mid-30's posting a "LOOK AT ME!" lego car he made. It really affected me. Not my scene. Account deleted.
I enjoyed Twitter, mainly to get news on music and sport I was interested in, never bothering with replies from Joe Public which made it quite acceptable. I got banned for posting a line from The Big Lebowski. They wouldn't let me back in without me submitting my phone number. Get fucked. Account deleted.
Instagram and whatever else, no interest.
When I came up to Dublin in pre-Covid times, I was always surprised by how deeply engrossed people were in their phone screens. Not just on the Luas, but people walking down the street looking at their phones. I think, if people were to consider how much money and time is invested in psychological manipulation to keep people transfixed on their phone screens, they might have that moment of self-realisation, but perhaps not. I get depressed seeing people sitting across from each other in restaurants looking at their phone screens rather than talking to each other. It's fucking tragic. I know people who cannot go more than a minute or two without checking their screens. They would not be able to leave their house without their phone.
Combine this addiction with the utter shite their brains are being bombarded with and, to me, there's a massive fucking problem coming. The future looks very bleak as things stand.
I agree completely with the phone addiction comment. It's amazing how liberating it is to forget your phone, after the brief panic that kicks in. To detach from technology for a few hours feels great. If you can manage to fire in a bit of exercise at the same time all the better.
The reality is, though, that for those of us the far side of 30, we can remember the real world, pre- internet and it was nice. I'm in no way anti- technology even if I'm generally retarded with it- but when I think of how tied to every facet of people's lives it has become, I wonder what it will be like for my son as he grows up.
It could be the fact that being born into this new world, he will more easily be able to navigate the bullshit but I hope it will be possible for our generation to pass on the concept of online and offline existence as being separate to the next generation. Although that itself might actually be dinosaur thinking!
Quote from: Eoin McLove on May 14, 2020, 12:23:55 PM
It could be the fact that being born into this new world, he will more easily be able to navigate the bullshit but I hope it will be possible for our generation to pass on the concept of online and offline existence as being separate to the next generation. Although that itself might actually be dinosaur thinking!
5 years ago they did a study on over 7800 students -> https://purl.stanford.edu/fv751yt5934
They evaluated the students' ability to assess information sources and described the results as "dismaying," "bleak" and "a threat to democracy."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/23/503129818/study-finds-students-have-dismaying-inability-to-tell-fake-news-from-real
They did a follow up last year ->
https://news.stanford.edu/2019/11/18/high-school-students-unequipped-spot-fake-news/
I can only predict that in 10 years time it will be much much worse...when you include new tech for audio/voice editing, deep fakes software becoming more and more accessible. Inevitable really that something like an political international incident will occur due to a "perfect" deep fake video.
There are certainly potential existential threats posed by the increased advancements in technology. How do we go about minimising them without infringing on our own personal freedoms? Regulation will probably lead to monitoring so it seems there is a delicate line to tread there.
Tangentially related to that last point:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic
I think it has gotten out of hand and we are not really all better connected. A place like this seems like less of an agenda push than most other types of social media. I like the way it doesn't have that look at me thing so much as it is anonymous (then so is reddit and look at the shite on there). I have a Facebook account and I never post anything or scroll down the screen, I just use it to send messages to people as it's quite handy for that. I got rid of my phone years ago and I've never regretted it either. There is so much to be said for it. At the same time I spend way too much time on my laptop when I am in the house but I was actually gone quite good for staying away from it before the locking down.
I feel though that the whole thing is fucked up with the sheer amount of misinformation available to everyone but I'm conflicted as I'm all for freedom of speech. I guess kids just have to be taught to check their sources and think about things that they read before simply believing everything. Social media certainly brings out the absolute worst in everyone. Nobody can actually experience anything anymore without feeling the need to share it with everyone else and the fact is that nobody gives a shit because they are all too busy cultivating their own public persona. I find that is the saddest element of things and the whole selfie culture sickens me. Like fair enough you meet one of your heroes sometime and get a pic for yourself but taking a fucking picture of yourself to put it up for public consideration is just so saddening to me but I'm in the minority. I knew the world was fucked when I saw that selfie sticks were on sale a few years ago. I hope none of ye have em actually because I think one would have to be a total cunt to own one.
Also, I often reference Cambridge Analytica and I think the influence of companies such as this can't be underestimated in how they target users with certain information to swing them one way or the other in their thinking. That is something I think will only get worse as time goes on.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on May 14, 2020, 02:36:09 PM
Tangentially related to that last point:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic
That was a good read there. It's basically what I have seen coming for a long time myself, but I could never express it so well.
Does reading that make anybody else feel a mixture of rage and despondence?
Quote from: astfgyl on May 14, 2020, 03:30:24 PM
I think it has gotten out of hand and we are not really all better connected. A place like this seems like less of an agenda push than most other types of social media. I like the way it doesn't have that look at me thing so much as it is anonymous (then so is reddit and look at the shite on there). I have a Facebook account and I never post anything or scroll down the screen, I just use it to send messages to people as it's quite handy for that. I got rid of my phone years ago and I've never regretted it either. There is so much to be said for it. At the same time I spend way too much time on my laptop when I am in the house but I was actually gone quite good for staying away from it before the locking down.
I feel though that the whole thing is fucked up with the sheer amount of misinformation available to everyone but I'm conflicted as I'm all for freedom of speech. I guess kids just have to be taught to check their sources and think about things that they read before simply believing everything. Social media certainly brings out the absolute worst in everyone. Nobody can actually experience anything anymore without feeling the need to share it with everyone else and the fact is that nobody gives a shit because they are all too busy cultivating their own public persona. I find that is the saddest element of things and the whole selfie culture sickens me. Like fair enough you meet one of your heroes sometime and get a pic for yourself but taking a fucking picture of yourself to put it up for public consideration is just so saddening to me but I'm in the minority. I knew the world was fucked when I saw that selfie sticks were on sale a few years ago. I hope none of ye have em actually because I think one would have to be a total cunt to own one.
Also, I often reference Cambridge Analytica and I think the influence of companies such as this can't be underestimated in how they target users with certain information to swing them one way or the other in their thinking. That is something I think will only get worse as time goes on.
the real question is why they allowed ordinary people access to and the responsibility the most disruptive technology in human history. The www should just be a military or government communication network, and it kind of still is when you realise what a tiny portion they give over to us for porn and music and pointless shopping.
they allowed it because we gave them all our psychometrics for free, but I wonder whether recently they've been wondering if the price was too high for them and us. The way the internet has affected human nature and society's ability to function since the late 90s has in my view been mostly negative. I'm aware of the irony of using the internet to complain about the internet.
we were better off with cable tv, cinemas, photocopiers, books, magazines, leaflets, cds, tapes, records, but it's possible that's old age talking.
I don't know what my point is other than the internet being an overall negative. We need less but more carefully curated, we need gaps of time and space between thought and deed, we need to seriously think about limiting digital tech outside of very specific settings.
Joe Duffy liveline is open 1:45 to 3pm Monday to Friday.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on May 14, 2020, 01:35:45 PM
There are certainly potential existential threats posed by the increased advancements in technology. How do we go about minimising them without infringing on our own personal freedoms? Regulation will probably lead to monitoring so it seems there is a delicate line to tread there.
the first sentence is spot on man.
Any and all forms of evolution pose existential threats. The original cyanobacteria poisoned themselves to death by farting oxygen toxic to themselves into the atmosphere, but if they hadn't, we wouldn't be here. The existential threats are less of an issue than the experiential threats, as far as I'm concerned. We're not getting as much out of our presence as we might; that we're all going to die, individually and as a species and as an evolutionarily indivisible biomass, well these have all been built in since the origin (whatever way you wish to imagine that). All too much emphasis is placed on the existential side of things; the fear of non-being is largely what has us so fucked up.
Now you mention it, the proliferation of the online way of life as I see it is an experiential threat much more than any existential one but like all forms of technology, it isn't inherently bad. At the end of the day it is up to the end user to make the choices as to what they let it do to them. The existence of Facebook/Twitter etc and the fact that I have an account on there didn't make me start taking selfies or liking other people's, for example.
Also when I had a phone I found it rather addictive so I stopped using one. Now if somebody wants to call me, they ring my landline and if I'm home, grand and if I'm not, tough shit to us both. It is extremely liberating but I had to make the choice to do it, to improve my own experience of living when I leave the house. It wasn't the phone in itself that was the problem, just the fact that I didn't have the discipline to leave it out of my hand.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet so I'm not fully sure what's already been said, but I just realised that a buddy of mine randomly sent me a link this morning around the same time this thread was made. I haven't listened to it yet but apparently it's "a brilliant podcast about the internet". How serrendipitious https://open.spotify.com/show/6dqqC8nkBTC3ldRs7pP4qn?si=f9NS9QeDRgeb6jaWoL3fBQ
There were only 13 posts before yours, including the original post. Did you read that? :laugh:
You'd have to wonder if our generation didn't go through as much of an upheaval as any generation in the past. At least we're somewhat aware of of what kids these days might be facing. I don't think my parents generation knew the impact that the likes of Commando, Rambo, Robocop, Pam Anderson's big diddies, Guns n Roses and all that jive was having on our innocent little minds. Or am I clutching at straws here?
Quote from: Juggz on May 14, 2020, 09:16:22 PM
There were only 13 posts before yours, including the original post. Did you read that? :laugh:
Saving them for tomorrow's morning commute :abbath:
As much as I agree that social media in general is fairly bleak, and can get behind a lot of what's said already, it can also be a useful tool for a few reasons. As a simple example of this, I stripped out my facebook quite a lot, muted people, blocked pages, constantly reported shit I didn't want to deal with (certain ads usually), actually interacted with things I wanted on there, joined an absolutely disgraceful amount of groups, and let the algorithm figure it out from there. If I open it now to browse, I am generally met with discussion about music and albums, music gear, pedal building, local gigs, and a couple of memes. Some close friends posts get through but it's rare. Is it perfect? Nope, but it does more than close to what I want it for. If it wasn't for how good the FB groups system is, I would have quit it already. It's up to you to curate it to some degree. Interacting with garbage on any site keeps garbage relevant.
Of course the fact that all these are set up purely to sell you something, to figure out your niche demographic and advertise directly to you, and all the other ramifications of that are truly awful. The whole way it has changed how we behave and interact is completely fucked. How we lap up any information presented to us on one of four sites rather than investigate anything a little further. How it shuffles people into their own bubbles of praise and validation of people who share their exact ideas only, and allows each group to very easily make an effigy of 'them' in the next group over to abuse because it is on a larger scale rather than an individual one - mob mentality and all that. But ye know this.
I know there are better examples of it being a tool but ye all know them and i'm preaching to ye talking about them so there's no need, i'll just fire my anecdote on top.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on May 14, 2020, 02:36:09 PM
Tangentially related to that last point:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic
Tech like vultures....that Schmidt guy has a *bit* of a conflict of interest lol
Quote from: astfgyl on May 14, 2020, 08:38:54 PM
Now you mention it, the proliferation of the online way of life as I see it is an experiential threat much more than any existential one but like all forms of technology, it isn't inherently bad. At the end of the day it is up to the end user to make the choices as to what they let it do to them. The existence of Facebook/Twitter etc and the fact that I have an account on there didn't make me start taking selfies or liking other people's, for example.
Also when I had a phone I found it rather addictive so I stopped using one. Now if somebody wants to call me, they ring my landline and if I'm home, grand and if I'm not, tough shit to us both. It is extremely liberating but I had to make the choice to do it, to improve my own experience of living when I leave the house. It wasn't the phone in itself that was the problem, just the fact that I didn't have the discipline to leave it out of my hand.
when we were younger men we could get away with the technology is just a tool/technology is neutral thing, but I never believed it. Everything in this world skews to the negative and technology contains that skew in its very essence; it's better to think of technology as less of an extension of its user or a reflection of its use, but more a sneaky invasive lifeform, parasitic, forcing bad chances in its host and the host's environment.
I kind of think it's too late now- there can never be people or societies in any way distinct from technology now. If you have kids now, what is life for them? A reality where we can't say what it is, where things move so fast that every 6 months is a new era, where young people binge on netflix shows made by algorithm... binge itself is a pretty strong word for describing leisure. I'll be glad to go, and to leave noone behind, sad as that is in some ways. it's already weird to see parents in their early to mid 40s struggling to understand fortnite or having to ration 'screen time', or kids being excited by getting a new phone for their birthday.
Quote from: Pedrito on May 14, 2020, 09:40:33 PM
You'd have to wonder if our generation didn't go through as much of an upheaval as any generation in the past. At least we're somewhat aware of of what kids these days might be facing. I don't think my parents generation knew the impact that the likes of Commando, Rambo, Robocop, Pam Anderson's big diddies, Guns n Roses and all that jive was having on our innocent little minds. Or am I clutching at straws here?
when we went to the cinema we saw a film projected from a reel, just like the previous 4 generations; we read books, did a lot of stuff that was very 19th and 20th century. eventually that had to end, but if we're feeling alienated by how things are going inthis century, who the fuck is running the show? Th current age is way beyond the paygrade of Inda, Bertie, Martin, and even people you'd expect to be on this, politicians scientists philosophers in their 30s and 40s, they're all just spoofing about stuff which sort of doesn't exist anymore.
Well, a technology destroying cataclysm can never be fully ruled out!
We can't be going the wrong way, since there is no destination built into life. We may be going in certain ways we feel are alien to our generation, and rather than being progress this may just be exploitation by corporations; but the sociologists and philosophers have been banging that very drum since the end of the 19th century; Nietzsche said of the telegraph that we had heard its hammering but had no idea what it would mean for the future evolution of society (the evolutionary leap in question being the sudden appearance of quasi-instantaneous global communication). The telegraph had long been surpassed during the childhood we look back on as though it were all simple joy, yet certain 19th century thinkers would have been horrified by it. I don't see any qualitative difference between controlling screen time and controlling tv time or video game time (these were screens too); kids getting excited at having a tv for their bedroom (shock horror!) or an internet connected PC is surely similar to excitement over a new phone. Some parents will do better than others at resisting and bringing their kids into nature or just kicking them outside to muck about.
I'm just not seeing any solid arguments for "we're more fucked than ever", just a look at the past which is limited to how things in the present look to our 80s and 90s brains, when what matters is a trans-generational perspective, which makes things in the present seem less disastrous, relatively speaking. We have the same problem with corporations hijacking experience as we have had for a long time; it's a real problem, and they are getting better at it. We just have to get better at fighting back.
Which is why we should agree here and now to train all our children to be eco-terrorists!
Edit: Progress my hole if the predictive capabilities of Android are anything to go by; impossible to write anything of length on a "smart"phone :/
I think we have gotten to a stage where we probably think we're a lot more advanced than we actually are, and we forget the amount of mongoloid shit that continues to go on in our world. Just read the news story about yer one Zappone and the 6 people who applied to be child minders for frontline staff. For all our technology and manipulation, you still have gobshites coming up with ill judged, poorly planned, grand ideas that nobody gets behind. We can't avoid the human factor in all of this.
I get the same sense from the likes of Elon Musk for example who seems to be far more a marketing tool than anything else. Yes, nice cars, but it's not like they don't cost a shit load of money anyway, but I get the sense that there's a lot of spoof coming from him. He seems emotionally underdeveloped and has bought into this idea that he is some Tony Stark character. My point being that we are fed an image of these visions of the future, but Musk just comes across to me as some lad that probably had a proper rough time in school and has spent his entire life making up for it. Again, human, imperfect.
Yes, technology is an issue, but I think it always has been and the human factor is always going to play a part. We see Instagram pics and these visions of perfection, people seem to take everything, and everyone on face value these days, say and act appropriately and you get a pass. How long will that last before a future generation starts pushing back on the hypocrisy? Kids in the US in the 60's pushed back on this Happy Families image that has come back into style again, the perfect child stuff, and who would have thought our generation would bring it back?
But it's like anything, there will be a reaction to everything in the end, swings and roundabouts. I watched Barry Lyndon last night, all these rich Lord and Ladies in their massive mansions with slaves about. They thought they were going to live forever through their descendants and all that guff and as the final credits said, The rich and poor, the ugly and beautiful, they all ended up in the same place..and I think that's a good way to think about it. The idea that somehow we can, could or should control what is happening is simply folly, so we'd be far better off focussing on ourselves, what makes us happy and fulfilled, and history and time will take care of the rest.
All that said, I still wouldn't rule out a Butlerian Jihad in the future :abbath:
I agree that we have a certain amount of power in all this, at least in terms of how much we interact with certain elements of technology and how we allow it to affect us on a mental level- easier for some, less so for others depending on your personality and maybe you can train yourself in mental fortitude to some degree. Avoiding poisonous (in my view, at least) sites like Instagram is probably a good start, as is not following news items about social justice groups who seem hellbent on controlling culture- that's certainly a swings and roundabouts scenario or some bizarre over contention phenomenon. It's incredible how much we all allow online nonsense to infect our brains so it's important to try to keep a sense of perspective and, of course, to try to spend quality time offline and engaging in the real world. That might not be so easy depending on your line of work, though.
when we moved away from home ownership, copper landlines, communities, towns, national engagement, we lost a lot.
Not really sure where to put this for maximum reach, but here seems kind of appropriate in terms of the reflections it merits. The AlphaGo documentary, about the AI DeepMind designed which eventually beat the world's greatest Go player. It's fascinating, thought-provoking, really well made and well worth your time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y
Quote from: mugz on May 16, 2020, 04:58:34 PM
when we moved away from home ownership, copper landlines, communities, towns, national engagement, we lost a lot.
You mean the illusion of home ownership. I'll be 60 before I own mine, despite co-owning an apartment 'on paper'.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on May 18, 2020, 12:53:43 AM
Not really sure where to put this for maximum reach, but here seems kind of appropriate in terms of the reflections it merits. The AlphaGo documentary, about the AI DeepMind designed which eventually beat the world's greatest Go player. It's fascinating, thought-provoking, really well made and well worth your time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y
Yeah excellent doc alright. It's definitely a step in the right direction for neural networks and very impressive work done by the devs.
Not as well made as the doc but a brief look into what I see as the next step, conquering a game like Dota 2 which this video explains why it's insanely difficult to try master this for a neural network AI ->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Q1NL4k8cI
Also some other cool stuff ->
https://openai.com/blog/emergent-tool-use/
https://openai.com/blog/solving-rubiks-cube/
Nice, thanks! I'm trying to model some behaviour data at the moment, so mining as much inspiration as possible from the world of RL and machine learning.
Not sure what your needs are. I find Splunk invaluable when interrogating a large data set though. Might make your life a tad easier.
Quote from: hellfire on May 18, 2020, 01:06:39 PM
Not sure what your needs are. I find Splunk invaluable when interrogating a large data set though. Might make your life a tad easier.
I'll look it up, thanks. I'm doing everything through Python at the moment, custom programs I'm developing and refining on the fly.
Python is really awesome for things like that too. All hail the mighty regex!
I don't use Twitter or Facebook or the other Social Media Platforms. I have a LinkedIn Account, but rarely use it.
(I didn't read all the posts), but I think problem that everyone is being considered on par when that's not the case. I know how to build computers tailored for certain jobs, but that in no way means I'm would be at the same level as a Digital Forensic Specialist no should be considered so and "given the same platform for balance".
There's this "Cancel Culture" where people go digging into people's past and to look for things that while ok at time time are not considered ok now and judge them by today's stands. It's disgusting and highly dangerous, and they don't seem to consider that in a time to come they could be victims of it too.
A very good description of the Internet by Stephen Fry using Greek Mythology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX7DkjShs3c