So, we need to talk about the internet...

[Eoin McLove]

Excuse my ironic subject title but I think there might actually be an interesting discussion to be had in this.  I was listening to the Triggered interview with Graham Linehan and,  on one hand, I realised how completely out of touch I am with the vast majority of so called issues and the various protagonists in all of these online dramas. On the other hand I realised again how lucky I am to be ignorant of all of this crap.

When I listen to otherwise intelligent people discussing their nightmare experiences on Twitter and how they were banned for saying something as self evident as men are not women or whatever the current state of online unreality deems unworthy,  I wonder what the fuck they are doing entering that cesspool of irrationality and hate. The internet has so many amazing uses but it is time we put a stop to social media? Is that even possible at this point?

Maybe the social media model is a phase we need to go through,  where people can vomit out their rage and insanity/ inanity and then return to reality? The entire thing seems so- to use a most detestable phrase- toxic.  Ironically the effect of bringing people together often seems to result in causing deeper divides between groups.

I wonder if a case might even be made against the so called global community? Could it be that we aren't supposed to be so connected? Perhaps our brains aren't evolved to be exposed to so much conflicting opinion, or conflict on such a scale?

Whenever I hear people discuss the various online dramas it all seems to be petty and fucking grim but then back in the real world things generally tend to tick along as normal (lockdowns and social distancing not withstanding).

Even the banality of Facebook which is set up to place you in a group- think bubble of your peers is mind rottingly awful, a point of view that is difficult to see from the inside and immediately apparent from the outside. 

What's the future for this medium? More social division,  more lunatic versions of reality and distortions of basic truths or is there hope for the form?

[Eoin McLove]

Also,  is it even possible to separate online reality from reality reality anymore when online nuttiness has real world effects on people's lives and livelihoods? Do we need to consider making legal distinctions or implement boundaries? Should it be legal for companies to look up prospective employees' online histories? That seems to me to be hugely invasive.

[Juggz]

I don't think the problem is that people are exposed to other opinions, I think it's more that the most unqualified, uneducated and ignorant statements are given equal standing to truth and insight, all with zero consequence to the idiot behind the keyboard. That has never happened before. The unqualified rarely got exposure beyond their immediate circle. Now, there is a global platform for them in the pocket of most of the population of the planet, a direct channel to the world. Crazy. What's worse is that the platforms these baseless idiocies are posted on will push whatever is paid for or what "goes viral" (how apt) regardless of the content.

It's interesting that there are parallel movements of extreme tolerance along with exterme intolerance, frequently coming from the mouths of the same people, in this age of being exposed to multiple opinions. I think poeople are being exposed less to contrasting opinions other than in headline form with no concept of understanding the reasoning behind it. It's dangerous. Extreme tolerance in an intolerant way is still intolerance. There seems to be little capacity to step back and think. That's bad news for everyone.

For personal context, I was on Facebook for about a year, at the behest of a mate who badgered me for a long time. It was horrible. Relentless desperate "LOOK AT ME!!!" attention and approval seeking of such a morbidly curious nature to keep you scrolling down. The crunch was a friend in his mid-30's posting a "LOOK AT ME!" lego car he made. It really affected me. Not my scene. Account deleted.

I enjoyed Twitter, mainly to get news on music and sport I was interested in, never bothering with replies from Joe Public which made it quite acceptable. I got banned for posting a line from The Big Lebowski. They wouldn't let me back in without me submitting my phone number. Get fucked. Account deleted.

Instagram and whatever else, no interest.

When I came up to Dublin in pre-Covid times, I was always surprised by how deeply engrossed people were in their phone screens. Not just on the Luas, but people walking down the street looking at their phones. I think, if people were to consider how much money and time is invested in psychological manipulation to keep people transfixed on their phone screens, they might have that moment of self-realisation, but perhaps not. I get depressed seeing people sitting across from each other in restaurants looking at their phone screens rather than talking to each other. It's fucking tragic. I know people who cannot go more than a minute or two without checking their screens. They would not be able to leave their house without their phone.

Combine this addiction with the utter shite their brains are being bombarded with and, to me, there's a massive fucking problem coming. The future looks very bleak as things stand.

[Eoin McLove]

I agree completely with the phone addiction comment. It's amazing how liberating it is to forget your phone,  after the brief panic that kicks in.  To detach from technology for a few hours feels great.  If you can manage to fire in a bit of exercise at the same time all the better.

The reality is,  though,  that for those of us the far side of 30, we can remember the real world,  pre- internet and it was nice.  I'm in no way anti- technology even if I'm generally retarded with it- but when I think of how tied to every facet of people's lives it has become,  I wonder what it will be like for my son as he grows up. 

It could be the fact that being born into this new world,  he will more easily be able to navigate the bullshit but I hope it will be possible for our generation to pass on the concept of online and offline existence as being separate to the next generation.  Although that itself might actually be dinosaur thinking!

[The Butcher]

It could be the fact that being born into this new world,  he will more easily be able to navigate the bullshit but I hope it will be possible for our generation to pass on the concept of online and offline existence as being separate to the next generation.  Although that itself might actually be dinosaur thinking!

5 years ago they did a study on over 7800 students -> https://purl.stanford.edu/fv751yt5934

They evaluated the students' ability to assess information sources and described the results as "dismaying," "bleak" and "a threat to democracy."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/23/503129818/study-finds-students-have-dismaying-inability-to-tell-fake-news-from-real

They did a follow up last year ->
https://news.stanford.edu/2019/11/18/high-school-students-unequipped-spot-fake-news/

I can only predict that in 10 years time it will be much much worse...when you include new tech for audio/voice editing, deep fakes software becoming more and more accessible. Inevitable really that something like an political international incident will occur due to a "perfect" deep fake video.

[Eoin McLove]

There are certainly potential existential threats posed by the increased advancements in technology. How do we go about minimising them without infringing on our own personal freedoms? Regulation will probably lead to monitoring so it seems there is a delicate line to tread there. 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Tangentially related to that last point:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic

[astfgyl]

I think it has gotten out of hand and we are not really all better connected. A place like this seems like less of an agenda push than most other types of social media. I like the way it doesn't have that look at me thing so much as it is anonymous (then so is reddit and look at the shite on there). I have a Facebook account and I never post anything or scroll down the screen, I just use it to send messages to people as it's quite handy for that. I got rid of my phone years ago and I've never regretted it either. There is so much to be said for it. At the same time I spend way too much time on my laptop when I am in the house but I was actually gone quite good for staying away from it before the locking down.

I feel though that the whole thing is fucked up with the sheer amount of misinformation available to everyone but I'm conflicted as I'm all for freedom of speech. I guess kids just have to be taught to check their sources and think about things that they read before simply believing everything. Social media certainly brings out the absolute worst in everyone. Nobody can actually experience anything anymore without feeling the need to share it with everyone else and the fact is that nobody gives a shit because they are all too busy cultivating their own public persona. I find that is the saddest element of things and the whole selfie culture sickens me. Like fair enough you meet one of your heroes sometime and get a pic for yourself but taking a fucking picture of yourself to put it up for public consideration is just so saddening to me but I'm in the minority. I knew the world was fucked when I saw that selfie sticks were on sale a few years ago. I hope none of ye have em actually because I think one would have to be a total cunt to own one.

Also, I often reference Cambridge Analytica and I think the influence of companies such as this can't be underestimated in how they target users with certain information to swing them one way or the other in their thinking. That is something I think will only get worse as time goes on.

[astfgyl]

Tangentially related to that last point:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/may/13/naomi-klein-how-big-tech-plans-to-profit-from-coronavirus-pandemic

That was a good read there. It's basically what I have seen coming for a long time myself, but I could never express it so well.

Does reading that make anybody else feel a mixture of rage and despondence?

[mugz]

I think it has gotten out of hand and we are not really all better connected. A place like this seems like less of an agenda push than most other types of social media. I like the way it doesn't have that look at me thing so much as it is anonymous (then so is reddit and look at the shite on there). I have a Facebook account and I never post anything or scroll down the screen, I just use it to send messages to people as it's quite handy for that. I got rid of my phone years ago and I've never regretted it either. There is so much to be said for it. At the same time I spend way too much time on my laptop when I am in the house but I was actually gone quite good for staying away from it before the locking down.

I feel though that the whole thing is fucked up with the sheer amount of misinformation available to everyone but I'm conflicted as I'm all for freedom of speech. I guess kids just have to be taught to check their sources and think about things that they read before simply believing everything. Social media certainly brings out the absolute worst in everyone. Nobody can actually experience anything anymore without feeling the need to share it with everyone else and the fact is that nobody gives a shit because they are all too busy cultivating their own public persona. I find that is the saddest element of things and the whole selfie culture sickens me. Like fair enough you meet one of your heroes sometime and get a pic for yourself but taking a fucking picture of yourself to put it up for public consideration is just so saddening to me but I'm in the minority. I knew the world was fucked when I saw that selfie sticks were on sale a few years ago. I hope none of ye have em actually because I think one would have to be a total cunt to own one.

Also, I often reference Cambridge Analytica and I think the influence of companies such as this can't be underestimated in how they target users with certain information to swing them one way or the other in their thinking. That is something I think will only get worse as time goes on.

the real question is why they allowed ordinary people access to and the responsibility the most disruptive technology in human history. The www should just be a military or government communication network, and it kind of still is when you realise what a tiny portion they give over to us for porn and music and pointless shopping.

they allowed it because we gave them all our psychometrics for free, but I wonder whether recently they've been wondering if the price was too high for them and us. The way the internet has affected human nature and society's ability to function since the late 90s has in my view been mostly negative. I'm aware of the irony of using the internet to complain about the internet.

we were better off with cable tv, cinemas, photocopiers, books, magazines, leaflets, cds, tapes, records, but it's possible that's old age talking.

I don't know what my point is other than the internet being an overall negative. We need less but more carefully curated, we need gaps of time and space between thought and deed, we need to seriously think about limiting digital tech outside of very specific settings.

[blessed1]

Joe Duffy liveline is open 1:45 to 3pm Monday to Friday.

[mugz]

There are certainly potential existential threats posed by the increased advancements in technology. How do we go about minimising them without infringing on our own personal freedoms? Regulation will probably lead to monitoring so it seems there is a delicate line to tread there.

the first sentence is spot on man.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Any and all forms of evolution pose existential threats. The original cyanobacteria poisoned themselves to death by farting oxygen toxic to themselves into the atmosphere, but if they hadn't,  we wouldn't be here. The existential threats are less of an issue than the experiential threats, as far as I'm concerned. We're not getting as much out of our presence as we might; that we're all going to die, individually and as a species and as an evolutionarily indivisible biomass, well these have all been built in since the origin (whatever way you wish to imagine that). All too much emphasis is placed on the existential side of things; the fear of non-being is largely what has us so fucked up.

[astfgyl]

Now you mention it, the proliferation of the online way of life as I see it is an experiential threat much more than any existential one but like all forms of technology, it isn't inherently bad. At the end of the day it is up to the end user to make the choices as to what they let it do to them. The existence of Facebook/Twitter etc and the fact that I have an account on there didn't make me start taking selfies or liking other people's, for example.

Also when I had a phone I found it rather addictive so I stopped using one. Now if somebody wants to call me, they ring my landline and if I'm home, grand  and if I'm not, tough shit to us both. It is extremely liberating but I had to make the choice to do it, to improve my own experience of living when I leave the house. It wasn't the phone in itself that was the problem, just the fact that I didn't have the discipline to leave it out of my hand.

[Giggles]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet so I'm not fully sure what's already been said, but I just realised that a buddy of mine randomly sent me a link this morning around the same time this thread was made. I haven't listened to it yet but apparently it's "a brilliant podcast about the internet". How serrendipitious https://open.spotify.com/show/6dqqC8nkBTC3ldRs7pP4qn?si=f9NS9QeDRgeb6jaWoL3fBQ