Are we all fucked?

[Kurt Cocaine]

So 5 years ago they were journalist bashing nasty Nazis. And now they're heroes...
Righty-oh Western media, we get the memo...

https://mobile.twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1501217774768635919?s=25&fbclid=IwAR1KvvvWRRYwPfrWIxrr-1gRwcTPJ524R7ctiNRp0TIUoHqgbOnOFxgUDv8

[Trev]

Christ, give it a fucking rest

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

You should read the history of US-USSR relations before, during, and after WWII KC. It will blow your empty mind.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

So, US-Ukraine collaboration military bio labs, Russian propaganda in advance of a bio attack of their own? Russia's version of Iraq's WMDs??

No prizes if you guessed that Tucker Carlson is relaying the claim as fact.

No longer just a useless cunt, now also, I think, unambiguously a useful idiot.

[Caomhaoin]

He's distorting what an official 'admitted', which was an admission of some kind of cooperation but nothing about weapons, which seems an awful stretch. He has made a few good points (and several poor ones) since this conflagration began but if you sincerely believe him a fool, you're allowing your personal distaste cloud your judgment.

The 'news', and the hackology going on from every conceivable angle makes every single claim from Fox, BBC and whomever else totally unworthy of belief. Zelensky is as full of shit as the Putin press corps is, the American outlets can't help but use it as a pan for frying bigger fish at home. Fuck off, let us know what's going on and shut up.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I believe playing the other side in this obviously, as you say, two-way propaganda war, playing for Russia to score points against Biden and Harris, etc., is foolish.

[astfgyl]

So, US-Ukraine collaboration military bio labs, Russian propaganda in advance of a bio attack of their own? Russia's version of Iraq's WMDs??

No prizes if you guessed that Tucker Carlson is relaying the claim as fact.

No longer just a useless cunt, now also, I think, unambiguously a useful idiot.

Both sides are saying the same thing, so if either one were to do it they have the defence in early.  After the Iraqi WMD scandal which the U.S. and U.K. used to invade and occupy the place, it's hard to believe their innocent little "western values" line of bull. Or Putin, I don't believe him either. There are biolabs in Ukraine connected to the U.S. indeed, but that was all in the public domain anyway so whatever about that. Anyway I've managed to stay out of the fine details of all this (I understand Russia have invaded another country, and they have no more right to do it than the yanks and brits did in Iraq so maybe we should offer them the use of our airport in protest) but I do find it funny that our rising energy bills are now blamed on Putin when that was baked in anyway for various reasons but at least there's a scapegoat for it now. Lastly on that and without getting into it too much again, I think that Zelensky is a chancer of the highest order and that Churchill-aping call to arms in the British parliament was some of the most chancer shit I've ever seen. I'm sure many will be caught up in his heroism and disagree, but no way am I taken by him whatsoever. That also in no way gives Russia any reason to be there, whatever they may be saying about it. Oh did anyone see the stoner getting his minute of fame on Sky News with the flak-jacketed reporter? It was hilarious.

Meanwhile while we're all watching the big shiny Ukraine, there's probably another 50 awful things being buried under the news cycle. There always is.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Comparisons with Iraq are, in a sense, legit, but in only three weeks this is already bigger in several ways, most notably the size of the attacking force and the number of them killed: already, even by modest estimates (i.e. not Zelenskiy's skewed by morale-building numbers), more Russian soldiers have died than the US lost in the entire years and years long Iraq campaign.

[blessed1]

more Russian soldiers have died than the US lost in the entire years and years long Iraq campaign.

I haven't been following any of this but that's mad.

[astfgyl]

Comparisons with Iraq are, in a sense, legit, but in only three weeks this is already bigger in several ways, most notably the size of the attacking force and the number of them killed: already, even by modest estimates (i.e. not Zelenskiy's skewed by morale-building numbers), more Russian soldiers have died than the US lost in the entire years and years long Iraq campaign.

Ah yeah I'm not questioning the scale of the thing and in many ways it's quite different to Iraq so there is a bit of apples and oranges in the comparison. It's just that from my moral viewpoint one is as bad as the other but the treatment is quite obviously different as in I never saw many stories of the heroic Iraqi defenders over here, but then of course I didn't because countries on this side of the world were involved and had to push their side of the propaganda. This seems like a bit more of an even match than either Iraq or indeed Afghanistan, although their brave defenders did make a good fist of it with what little they had.

I hear today talks of an agreement being signed so I hope that much is accurate although it was attributed to the Russian side so who knows. Being anti war as I am, I'm hoping the likes of the sanctions and the Ukrainian resistance will be enough to put an end to the invasion.

Actually did you see the British chap who said he went over to fight the Russians, said they were getting whooped, hid in a forest and then got captured and beaten by Ukrainian soldiers who thought he was a Russian spy? That one struck me funny. He's safely back home in England now anyway so luckily for him he got away with it.

[Caomhaoin]

The Iraqi army was tinpot and folded like an accordion under insurmountable odds. The media was primed, bigging up Republican guard units etc who in reality had little fighting spirit and were completely outmatched. Keep in mind that the Iraqi invasion was a conglomerate of many of the worlds most potent militaries, with aircraft carriers in the gulf and with nowhere near the humanitarian concerns or demonisation of the obvious aggressor.

Ukraine is armed with ultra modern anti armour weapons, among thousands of other units of NATO gear. They know world opinion has been manipulated to view the invasion as good v evil, and if they remember their history, the USA was nominally only a supplier of material until December 7, 1941. That could change. Hope springs eternal, and while it's not everything, it's enough.

I doubt many of you will have the time to listen to a Stephen Kolkin lecture, but Russian military doctrine, and the Soviet one that preceded it, is not compatible with its western counterpart. Beaten by the Poles in the 1920's, badly mauled by the Finns in 1940 until they eventually steamrolled them, both with appalling casualties. Remember what happened afterwards though, the most complete victory in the history of warfare over what was at the time the most sophisticated and best trained army in the world. NATO would do well to remember that.

Don't put too much onus on casualty numbers, in the end, it doesn't always equate to glory. The Americans killed a seven figure number (nobody knows how many for sure) of Vietcong and NVA in 8 years at the cost of 58,000 of their own KIA. They never lost a pitched battle and were nevertheless humiliated and sent packing,  society at home never to be the same.

[astfgyl]

The Iraqi army was tinpot and folded like an accordion under insurmountable odds. The media was primed, bigging up Republican guard units etc who in reality had little fighting spirit and were completely outmatched. Keep in mind that the Iraqi invasion was a conglomerate of many of the worlds most potent militaries, with aircraft carriers in the gulf and with nowhere near the humanitarian concerns or demonisation of the obvious aggressor.

Yeah that's a slightly more eloquent version of what I was saying. I'd agree with all that.

Here's hoping we don't get the two decades out of this one!

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

There's about as much comparison between Ukraine now and Iraq then as there is between Ukraine now and the Red Army of WWII. In fact, Russian society today is arguably closer to US society during the Vietnam war than it is to Soviet society in 39-45. And US society back home is what ended Vietnam, more than what was happening on the ground.

[Caomhaoin]

There's about as much comparison between Ukraine now and Iraq then as there is between Ukraine now and the Red Army of WWII. In fact, Russian society today is arguably closer to US society during the Vietnam war than it is to Soviet society in 39-45. And US society back home is what ended Vietnam, more than what was happening on the ground.

The Easter offensive in 1972 and the massive American bombing campaign that followed it started the road to peace, not American public opinion. Kissinger and Nixon were unwilling to accept defeat until it was impossible to prop up the south any further after neither side lived up to agreed terms. Read a book! Watergate played a role but congressional reluctance to keep supporting a lost cause was definitely the principal domestic concern. Kissinger and McNamara freely admitted this on the after dinner speech circuit.

The Iraqi army was a squalid, inept and hopelessly demoralised force before a shot was fired in 1991, and far worse condition in 2003. The Red army, once it rolled back the Germans in 1943 and obliterated weaker Romanian and Hungarian hangers-on, was an unstoppable behemoth which brought the biggest artillery barrage in history down on the Reich. There is not and never will be a comparison.

As for the societal comment, Russia is a hyper-capitalist state, and has been for 30 odd years, it's society is as different now from the 39-45 incarnation as anywhere on the planet. I guess you are alluding to the 'mass exodus' that is being 'reported' but not 'verified', and the protests etc. If only journalism wasn't the most morally bankrupt profession worldwide, maybe we'd get an accurate vision of what the f is going on.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I started out saying there is no comparison. But there is also no comparison between the USSR and its Red Army during WWII and Russia and its army today. No comparison whatsoever. Putin, for all his flaws, would never get away today with the scale of what Stalin got away with, for good and for bad, back then.