Free speech

[Eoin McLove]

I know many people here are advocates of free speech and are appalled by tactics such as non- platforming,  and I would tend to be in agreement.  I'm currently halfway through reading How to Lose a Country by Ece Temelkuran and I'm finding it quite eye opening. I know a lot of you are ravenous readers of world politics,  and that's something I am not, so I'm curious to get your opinions on such matters as shit posting and trolling, as I never really considered the wider implications too greatly before having it spelled out so clearly in this book.  Trolling as a political tool (I was aware of the concept but hadn't looked into it before.  Its disturbing) used by the likes of Erdoğan in Turkey to smokescreen the public and ultimately, in conjunction with various other tactics,  seize complete control of the state. It seems to transcend left and right,  as well, or perhaps more accurately,  it is used by both sides. It made me wonder about the whole free speech/ gender pronoun furore and whether that seemingly ludicrously inflated issue is legitimate or not, and who is  responsible for its perpetuation in mainstream dialogue,  the left or the right. 

How do you combat trolling? Is it possible to navigate around it without becoming endlessly side tracked by its slippery contradictory nature? Is it a passing phase?

Is free speech sacrosanct in the age of social media and trolling culture or should it be revised to free and responsible speech if we intend to hold on to our democracy?

Blunt and not very nuanced questions there but it will hopefully get the ball rolling.  I know there are people here with many varying opinions on this stuff so it might make for an illuminating (hopefully troll-free) discussion.

And seeing as I've just noticed this guy,  I'm adding him too... 

[Eoin McLove]

Trump and Brexit obviously...

[Wiseblood]

Bill Burr summed it up properly....

I think social media was a good experiment, but it just doesn't work," Burr says. "And I don't think people should be allowed to make comments anymore. I think we need a little more China in our internet. 

[Eoin McLove]

It's a tricky one! Democracy gives us freedom but if we don't impose rules or restrictions then we are in danger of unintentionally throwing it away.  It's a real concern,  but where do you draw the lines in the sand? One person's idea of a joke is viewed by another as attack on their personal freedom. 

Another interesting point she raises in the book is the idea of society as a whole losing site of a shared set of understood values, an accepted truth.  When everyone becomes an individual, regarding themselves as 'I' rather than 'we', the fragmentation leaves us exposed to exploitation. Hyperbole? Hard to say.

It's interesting that social media has made everybody somebody.  That's another grey area,  I think.  Individuality and identity are important for the 'I', but can become unhelpful in the bigger picture of forming a cohesive society with a set of agreed upon values.

[Eoin McLove]

 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Jaysus Andy, save these things for Monday mornings, not just before the weekend!

And who is this guy?  Kung-Fu Abbath?

[hellfire]

It's a topic that will feature a lot more in the next few years. I've made it very clear in other threads that I deeply resent state involvement in the internet. The lovable communists at the EU are horsing out as much legislation as possible at the moment to stifle the internet in its current form.  It is doing a lot of damage as people can assemble and discuss ideas not present in bought media channels such as RTE. look at the yellow vest thing in France. Months of protests and it would barely exist if you were to only watch mainstream media.  To end trolling you take away people's right to be a bad person. Cohesive society my hoop. Too much is made of someone being offended. Steve Hughes has a great bit about being offended.

[Emphyrio]

I've always been a staunch firm believer in free speech and expression. However, giving every fuckin moron a voice has really led us to a sorry state of affairs. Any faux outraged spastic now has a number of platforms on which to spout drivel. And like the blind leading the retarded, a small minority are now louder than the more reasonable majority. 

I hadn't really thought about the trolling side of it, which, in fairness, is a disturbing aspect of modern society.  While I absolutely don't agree with the Chinese approach towards censoring online content, I can see how people might feel inclined to think that a certain level of monitoring is necessary.

[Pedrito]

The gender pronoun thing does strike me as some sort of power grab though. Are there really that many tranny lads about the place than before? I see a few but it doesn't seem like a massive movement 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Communists in the EU?

The yellow vests have been covered in every major media outlet I've seen, and I'm afraid to tell you that it's all petering out; very much life as normal on Saturdays here now. There was a couple thousand max here last weekend, walked among them halfway along the city, loads of space for people getting on with their everyday.

It's a movement I'm all for, but at this stage it's getting just as much media attention as it deserves; less and less of the public are interested or invested in it (no pun intended). I've mates who post similar things every time there's an attack on Palestine; "The mainstream media won't show you this!" Then you open the Guardian or the BBC and it's one of the top stories. Then they tell you, "I wouldn't go near those sources."

Grand so, back in yer bubble.

[hellfire]

Yes, communists. Just checked rte as an example and there were a few reports from France in January and one in March. I check the Irish Times daily and there hasn't been much about it.  You would think persistent riots in a European country would have been bigger news.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

It was big news when it was big. It's not big anymore. When they burnt a restaurant a couple of weeks ago, that made mainstream news, but the numbers are dwindling, and on the ground, here in France, the populace are barely talking about it anymore. It might be the case that whatever underground sources you're checking are blowing the reality out of proportion. There's a front page story in Le Monde today about the movement. And what's it about? Interviews with people about how they are adjusting to fit it into their day-to-day and get on with life of a Saturday. That's what it's about now for the majority of people in the handful of cities where it's continuing. So, what interest do you expect it should hold for people outside France at this juncture? Why should it make regular news in the UK or Ireland? I don't get it, honestly.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

It's absolutely not a free speech issue anyway, not sure why you brought it up here. What is threatening such organization of people over the internet now?

[hellfire]

Articles 11 and 13 are the start of the EU and the governments within it policing the internet. They can and will be applied selectively. The reason I used that example was to illustrate how the internet makes it possible to organise such movements. You could argue that Brexit would never have happened without the internet. The Arab Spring definitely wouldn't have. For better and for worse it gives people a means to communicate and coordinate.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Very disappointed in Articles 11 and 13 being voted in (an overview article on it I found decent - feel free to share a better one if you know of it - here: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-article-13-article-11-european-directive-on-copyright-explained-meme-ban ). But is that mainly about money (via lobby groups) or mainly about curtailing freedom of speech, do you think? I'm not saying it's not within the realms of possibility that free communication between individuals be curtailed or infringed in some way that would be a threat to organization of movements like the yellow vests, etc., but I'm not seeing it yet; not in the fact that the mainstream media in the UK and Ireland have moved on to other stories than a few thousand demonstrators in a few cities in France (for comparison, would it be reasonable to expect mainstream media outside France to cover every strike that happens here involving similar numbers??), but not in Articles 11 and 13 either, which are negative for other reasons. They do represent a limit to free speech in some ways (to be honest, I would contest that all copyright laws do, full stop), but not in ways that would prevent people using the internet to organize themselves, as far as I can see.