The World Is In A Terrible State of Chassis

[Caomhaoin]

That's an excellent and emotive point.

It's well documented the suffering of women (taking Ireland as an example) who had unwanted pregnancies in the (not so distant) past. A combination of ignorance, lack of any form of contraception and the subsequent ostracism and barbarism is a really ugly chapter, shameful in all respects. I had a Greek flatmate on Erasmus who thought I was on the bam when I told her that johnnies couldn't be bought legally until the 90's, the divorce laws etc.

Anyway whenever I get into this debate with anyone I end up pissing people off and getting wound up, called a crank and a screwball so I'll leave it.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

No, I'm asking if there is any modern society that has community based upbringing of children?

No, but that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about community-based, or community integrated, if that's clearer, support for "unwanted" children and their mothers. Historically, in the west, both were either pushed out of their communities or dressed up, if possible, to be something else.

[Emphyrio]

But what would that entail exactly? Forgetting about the stigma and all that as things have improved quite a bit, in fairness. Are there many unwanted children nowadays?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

No, there aren't. Contraception of all sorts, plus abortion, has seen to that. Today, its only value as an argument is in discussing why there isn't more support for the pro-life movement; it's now little more than a tragic historical curiosity, that those who were against abortion were also those who made it the most appealing way out.

[Emphyrio]

Ah yes, now I'm with you.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

No, there aren't. Contraception of all sorts, plus abortion, has seen to that. Today, its only value as an argument is in discussing why there isn't more support for the pro-life movement; it's now little more than a tragic historical curiosity, that those who were against abortion were also those who made it the most appealing way out.

Actually, that's an uncharacteristically rose-tinted view of things from me; precisely in those countries where there is a push-back against abortion, you do still have the same stigmas about single-parenthood, etc. Poland, for example, having one of the most fervent catholic populations in Europe. And in the US, it's well documented that planned parenthood pro-life clinics have a very poor record for follow-up support of new mothers they have managed to talk/emotionally blackmail out of (place yourselves where you like on how to interpret what it is they do) pregnancy termination. And again, these people tend to be Republicans, who tend to be anti-welfare, harsh on maternity leave, etc., etc. They have in their heads that life must not be terminated, but once life arrives, then they're suddenly fatalistic about God's mysterious plans, while at the same time critical of anything that isn't the heaven-ordained configuration of the nuclear family; they're at the other dogmatic extreme from the supposed BLM take on the nuclear family which you all intuitively cast aside as garbage.

[Eoin McLove]

I don't think that being more than a bit sceptical about BLM's objectives regarding the family structure necessarily puts anyone in the same camp as the Christian far right who,  as you point out, are equally nutty on the matter. There is a massive area in the middle (as always) where these problems should be getting solved.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Of course not. But in criticizing the supposed BLM position ("dismantle the nuclear family") we can have a tendency to gloss over the sheer prevalence and power enjoyed in the US and elsewhere by the opposite polar position ("nuclear family or gtfo")