The Donald vs Big Tech

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The AI thing:

AI goes to war:
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

[hellfire]

The question was aimed at astfgyl. I'm sure 972mag.com is great craic but I've seen more credible looking phishing sites.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I actually thought similar when I first came across it with one of their earlier investigations, but it is legit:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/

At the very least, you'll find out within how AI isn't necessarily used to make targeting more precise. Notably, you can tweak the margin of non-target kills you'll allow in order to widen the spectrum of locations you can fire on to get the target. As your margin of non-target kills goes up, so does your choice of locations.

[hellfire]

Sounds more efficient than giving soldiers nuanced instructions. These types of decisions have been made in every conflict on one level or another. That's assuming it works, which it most likely does if they're using it.

[astfgyl]

That was pretty much the idea of the counter I was reading, that for every 2.5 casualties, 1 militant would bite the dust. Then that was compared to other conflicts as being fairly good value for money. Just goes to show how differently it's viewed depending on perspective.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The ratio is a black box to the public at the moment. The IDF make declarations about how many combatants they've killed (11 to 13,000) but will reveal neither how they arrive at that figure nor what their own estimates of civilian deaths are. At the ICJ, Israel's team made no attempt to contest either the overall death toll, or the proportion of that which is women and children, as presented by the prosecution as part of their case. So either that death toll more or less matches their own projections, or else their own projections, which they refuse to share, are even worse. Which is likely, since even the US State Department has stated since mid-November that the figures given by Hamas (who, their barbarism notwithstanding, are a lot shrewder in how they do propaganda than Israel) are more likely an under- than an over-count. Long story short; beyond closed doors, no one has any clear idea what the actual civilian to combatant kill ratio is at this point.

[hellfire]

Israel puts far more effort into avoiding civilian deaths than any other army. Leaflet drops, texts and flares a day before. All of these measures give their enemies a heads up too and make the strikes less effective. Still, they persist. The AI thing is just another measure. The IDF is held to a human rights standard that has never been applied to any other country in history. It was telling at the start that the cries of ethnic cleansing and such started before a shot was fired.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

All that "told" is that people who've been paying attention to the situation for decades knew what Hamas' Oct 7 attack was going to be used to justify in terms of attacks against Gazan civilians. It's not coincidence it turned out they were right. More "telling" was that the Religious Zionists in the Knesset (Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, etc.) and certain IDF mouthpieces started their cries for ethnic cleansing just as quickly. Also "telling" is that Netanyahu had been encouraging and fueling Hamas for years precisely because they are violent extremists, precisely in order to render any peaceful route to a two-state solution, say with the Palestinian Authority, impossible. And more telling still is that in Israel this was spoken about as early as Oct 8, yet it took until this week for western mainstream media to start challenging IDF mouthpieces on it and its ramifications:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

In short, and utterly unambiguously, Netanyahu and his cronies are more responsible for Hamas' level of power than any of the thousands of civilians (whatever the actual number) killed or maimed by the IDF in retribution in the last 6 months. So, no, they haven't put any particular "effort" into avoiding civilian deaths. Leaflets are cheap and easy deniability propaganda, but largely useless. If they wanted to avoid civilian deaths, if they cared about Palestinian lives, they would have reacted to October 7 by 1) properly securing the border they left vulnerable to such a breach despite long-standing and more recent warnings from both their own sentries and Egyptian intelligence, 2) agreeing to a hostage exchange, something along the lines of a few high profile political prisoners along with every Palestinian held in administrative detention (i.e. held without charge, over a thousand of them prior to Oct 7) for all the Israeli hostages, 3) once that was done, finally and fully choking Hamas' access to funding, and 4) putting Bibi and his Knesset co-conspirators on trial.

[Ollkiller]

Israel puts far more effort into avoiding civilian deaths than any other army. Leaflet drops, texts and flares a day before. All of these measures give their enemies a heads up too and make the strikes less effective. Still, they persist. The AI thing is just another measure. The IDF is held to a human rights standard that has never been applied to any other country in history. It was telling at the start that the cries of ethnic cleansing and such started before a shot was fired.

Tell that to the 3 Isrseli hostages they shot dead who were bare chested whilst carrying white cloths. They don't give the first flying fuck about civilian deaths. There's multiple videos out there of them shooting people walking on streets.

[son of the Morrigan]

All that "told" is that people who've been paying attention to the situation for decades knew what Hamas' Oct 7 attack was going to be used to justify in terms of attacks against Gazan civilians. It's not coincidence it turned out they were right. More "telling" was that the Religious Zionists in the Knesset (Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, etc.) and certain IDF mouthpieces started their cries for ethnic cleansing just as quickly. Also "telling" is that Netanyahu had been encouraging and fueling Hamas for years precisely because they are violent extremists, precisely in order to render any peaceful route to a two-state solution, say with the Palestinian Authority, impossible. And more telling still is that in Israel this was spoken about as early as Oct 8, yet it took until this week for western mainstream media to start challenging IDF mouthpieces on it and its ramifications:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

In short, and utterly unambiguously, Netanyahu and his cronies are more responsible for Hamas' level of power than any of the thousands of civilians (whatever the actual number) killed or maimed by the IDF in retribution in the last 6 months. So, no, they haven't put any particular "effort" into avoiding civilian deaths. Leaflets are cheap and easy deniability propaganda, but largely useless. If they wanted to avoid civilian deaths, if they cared about Palestinian lives, they would have reacted to October 7 by 1) properly securing the border they left vulnerable to such a breach despite long-standing and more recent warnings from both their own sentries and Egyptian intelligence, 2) agreeing to a hostage exchange, something along the lines of a few high profile political prisoners along with every Palestinian held in administrative detention (i.e. held without charge, over a thousand of them prior to Oct 7) for all the Israeli hostages, 3) once that was done, finally and fully choking Hamas' access to funding, and 4) putting Bibi and his Knesset co-conspirators on trial.

100% agree with ya on this one man, correct and proper.

[hellfire]

Israel puts far more effort into avoiding civilian deaths than any other army. Leaflet drops, texts and flares a day before. All of these measures give their enemies a heads up too and make the strikes less effective. Still, they persist. The AI thing is just another measure. The IDF is held to a human rights standard that has never been applied to any other country in history. It was telling at the start that the cries of ethnic cleansing and such started before a shot was fired.

Tell that to the 3 Isrseli hostages they shot dead who were bare chested whilst carrying white cloths. They don't give the first flying fuck about civilian deaths. There's multiple videos out there of them shooting people walking on streets.

Heaven forbid

Israel puts far more effort into avoiding civilian deaths than any other army. Leaflet drops, texts and flares a day before. All of these measures give their enemies a heads up too and make the strikes less effective. Still, they persist. The AI thing is just another measure. The IDF is held to a human rights standard that has never been applied to any other country in history. It was telling at the start that the cries of ethnic cleansing and such started before a shot was fired.

Tell that to the 3 Isrseli hostages they shot dead who were bare chested whilst carrying white cloths. They don't give the first flying fuck about civilian deaths. There's multiple videos out there of them shooting people walking on streets.

Doesn't change a damn thing. War is undesirable, everyone knows it is. Innocent people are always the first to pay in any armed conflict. They've still made more effort to reduce that than any military in living memory. The standard you hold them to would be laughed at by any other country on earth.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Do you think we don't know the last place we've heard these exact claims? From the mouths of IDF mouthpieces. It is pure propaganda. Ask Russia if they'd like to exchange the standard they're held to by the world order for the standard Israel are held to.

[hellfire]

This particular discussion started because they were investing in technology to reduce civilian casualties.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I started this particular discussion by posting an (Israeli) investigation into Israel's use of AI. That investigation in absolutely no way demonstrates that technology is being used to reduce civilian casualties. Quite the opposite.

[hellfire]

The investigation you posted consists of a documentary produced for the government of Qatar followed by a blog with a custom URL.

Let's call a spade a spade here. Both of you don't think Israel should exist in its current form at its current location. I think it should. Warbling about the use of a targeting technology won't change that.

The allegations of ethnic cleansing are bollocks. The contention that they're trying stealth ethnic cleansing is laughable. As pointed out before they could have that shithole as clear as the surface of the moon before dinner if they wanted.