The Donald vs Big Tech

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The investigation you posted consists of a documentary produced for the government of Qatar followed by a blog with a custom URL.

Let's call a spade a spade here. Both of you don't think Israel should exist in its current form at its current location. I think it should. Warbling about the use of a targeting technology won't change that.

The allegations of ethnic cleansing are bollocks. The contention that they're trying stealth ethnic cleansing is laughable. As pointed out before they could have that shithole as clear as the surface of the moon before dinner if they wanted.

You're not thick man, so stop acting it with me for a second: As I took pains to explain, the documentary about the influence of Christian Zionism on US foreign policy was made last year and was in no way "produced for" Al Jazeera, no more than Terminator 2 was "produced for" any of the tv stations which have ever broadcast it. I also took pains to explain to you that, despite its appearance, 972mag has a solid reputation for its investigations. If you don't want to look at the details of that investigation, that's more down to things you don't want to consider.

Let's call a spade a spade here? Ok, without going into all the historical details, I believe Israel should exist within the 1967 borders, i.e. in its current form at its current location minus the illegal settlements throughout the West Bank. My personal leanings would be towards a fully egalitarian binational democratic state covering the entire Israel-Palestine region (something which has famous supporters on each side; Edward Saïd, Gideon Levy...), but this is more pie in the sky than ever now.

Israel may be poor at propaganda, but they're not idiots: if they'd flash carpet-bombed (in the strict sense) Gaza then no one, not even the US, could have defended them. So they did the best they could, and very large parts of Gaza are as clear as the surface of the moon now. The close to 1.5 million displaced from North Gaza have no homes to return to. None. There is nothing left. And what have Knesset ministers been suggesting? Let Europe take them in! Let Egypt take them in! In other words; get them out of Gaza so we can resettle it. Go review the case that was presented before the ICJ, look at the quotes on strategy and objectives to "thin" the population as much as possible.

Any maybe also reflect on the implications for you, of all people, to be on the same side as the likes of Von Der Leyen and Biden on this affair.

[astfgyl]

I don't even know if the should exist there part comes into it at all really, because whatever the answer to that, the fact is that it is there now. I wouldn't be getting into that in any more detail because it's beyond what I'd know about the history there.

As to the current situation?

Hamas:

Can anyone tell me what they think Hamas hoped to achieve with the Oct 7th attacks, and does anyone here condone those attacks, having seen the various video clips doing the rounds?

Does anyone here think that Hamas didn't expect a response, and what do we think would happen differently?

Also, isn't one of Hamas' stated aims to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and would that be classed as ethnic cleansing were they to achieve said aim?

Israel:

Does anyone think that Israel weren't already itching for an opportunity like this, and were likely as happy to get the chance as they were aggrieved for the innocent victims?

Does anyone think that Israel hasn't been putting the boot into Palestine since before we'd ever heard of the place?

Does anyone think that what has been done to the people of Palestine for decades could be construed as crimes against humanity?

Does anyone think if Israel were to pull out tomorrow and go back to defending the border that Hamas would then sit down for peace talks and a two state solution?

Concerning Both:

What does anyone think both sides should do at this point in time?

Should Hamas surrender and turn themselves in, in order to prevent further civilian casualties in Palestine?

Should Israel stop the bombardment, in order to prevent further civilian casualties in Palestine?

Should Israel keep going until they've rooted out every Hamas militant in Palestine, risking short term civilian casualties in the hope of long term peace?

Should Hamas keep going until they finally inflict enough suffering on Israel to make them stop what they're doing?

Anyhow, the point of the questions here isn't really to get anyone to answer and more to point out why I really can't be getting into arguments about this war because it's all very complex and involves religious, territorial and ethnic differences that are above my station altogether if I want to to do anything else with my time at all other than study it. It's also so polarising that even I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Best of luck with arguing it all out though

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Let me repeat one point which simply scrubs half of those points off the board: Hamas are a violent extremist group who Netanyahu & Co, for that very reason, have integrated into their plans to circumvent Palestinian statehood for around two decades now, allowing funding to get to Hamas even after the Palestinian Authority had cut them off in hopes that it would kill them off. So paint Hamas as badly as you like (and it's very easy to do so), but with every further atrocity attributed to them, Netanyahu & Co's guilt increases also.

[hellfire]

A return to the 1967 borders will achieve nothing. Same issue with different lines on maps. They've been offered the '67 borders and refused them.  From the river to the sea I believe is the demand. The settlements are an embarrassment, they pulled a lot of them out forcibly but I'm sure they could pull more out. You overblow that members of the Knesset bit gigantically. A couple of hard line politicians got reprimanded for saying let Europe and Egypt take them. Your claim that they are trying to clear out the people and are unable to is a joke. The population of the West Bank has been increasing steadily for years. In order to believe the ethnic cleansing crap you'd have to assume the IDF was run by Wile E. Coyote.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

They have no intention of pulling out more of the settlements:
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240326-israel-s-largest-land-seizure-since-oslo-accords-deals-fresh-blow-to-palestinian-statehood

It's irrelevant to the charge of ethnic cleansing that the overall Palestinian population of the West Bank is growing; they are being forcibly evicted from their lands (one of the things that usually resonates with us Irish by means of our own history) to be replaced by Israeli settlers. That is ethnic cleansing.

[hellfire]

I'm bored with you now. Off to watch a western.

[Ollkiller]

Let's call a spade a spade here. Both of you don't think Israel should exist in its current form at its current location. I think it should.

Put words into your own mouth. I never said a damn thing about Israel existing. I'm all for a 2 state solution. Israel could have gone after Hamas for years and destroyed its apparatus. But they went the destroy all of fucking gaza option. That's what I have a problem with.

And as an aside. If they really wanted to go after Hamas why haven't they gone after the leadership in Qatar.

[hellfire]

Why don't they invade Qatar  How exactly should they have gone after Hamas? What method of dealing with them would have been acceptable to you? Give me the Oilkiller solution as to how Israel should proceed.

They'll get it in the neck no matter what they do. If they had been in the west bank they're occupiers, when they left it alone they weren't dealing with Hamas. As I said, the two state solution has been rejected completely every time it was offered. If it was offered again tomorrow it would also be rejected.

[Ollkiller]

Why don't they invade Qatar  How exactly should they have gone after Hamas? What method of dealing with them would have been acceptable to you? Give me the Oilkiller solution as to how Israel should proceed.

They'll get it in the neck no matter what they do. If they had been in the west bank they're occupiers, when they left it alone they weren't dealing with Hamas. As I said, the two state solution has been rejected completely every time it was offered. If it was offered again tomorrow it would also be rejected.

Never said invade Qatar. I meant take out the hamas leadership who live it up in Qatar. Like Israel has taken out its opponenets in Europe in the last few decades.Laying waste to gaza is not going after hamas. It's going after the Palestinian people. It's a cluster fuck of a region. A two state solution is the only way forward. It could take decades but hopefully some day it'll happen.

[hellfire]

I'll try not to clutter up the questions. How should Israel have dealt with Hamas? How should they deal with them going forward? What would be or have been acceptable to you personally?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Netanyahu has regularly declared with pride that he is to be thanked for preventing Palestine achieving statehood. See this example from 2015 where he declares that is what he will do. It also, given that at this point he had already been helping Hamas along for years, reveals in retrospect just how politically Machiavellian he was being: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-no-palestinian-state-under-my-watch/

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday said a Palestinian state would not be established on his watch, should he be reelected, in part because he warned that any areas that came under Palestinian rule would subsequently become a Hamas stronghold.

So the idea the failure of the two-state solution all boils down to the Palestinians rejecting offers is something else folk should add to the list of Israeli perspectives that need serious nuancing in order to align them with other nevertheless evident facts.

[Ollkiller]

I'll try not to clutter up the questions. How should Israel have dealt with Hamas? How should they deal with them going forward? What would be or have been acceptable to you personally?

Right. So what they've done is displace 1.5 million people and destroy vast swathes of Gaza killing thousands of innocent women and children. All counter productive. Here Hamas. Here's your fighters for the next 20 years. Along with knowing what the israeli respinse would be bringing condemnation around the world that's what I believe Hamas wanted to achieve with Oct 07th.

For what Israel should have done. The long game. Identify every fucker in Hamas and no matter where in the world they were take the fuckers out. And they could have done that easily. And that would involve strikes in Gaza. I get that. But not what has occurred over the last few months. That's just as evil as what Hamas did.

[hellfire]

I'll try not to clutter up the questions. How should Israel have dealt with Hamas? How should they deal with them going forward? What would be or have been acceptable to you personally?

Right. So what they've done is displace 1.5 million people and destroy vast swathes of Gaza killing thousands of innocent women and children. All counter productive. Here Hamas. Here's your fighters for the next 20 years. Along with knowing what the israeli respinse would be bringing condemnation around the world that's what I believe Hamas wanted to achieve with Oct 07th.

For what Israel should have done. The long game. Identify every fucker in Hamas and no matter where in the world they were take the fuckers out. And they could have done that easily. And that would involve strikes in Gaza. I get that. But not what has occurred over the last few months. That's just as evil as what Hamas did.

What you suggest there is sensible and undoubtedly motivated by a desire to stop the non-combatant experiencing any more than a bare minimum of suffering. We agree on that much. In practicality it has no chance of working. Israeli assassinations carried out in countries that aren't within their sphere of influence (the proverbial river to the sea) would start a number of wars or one great big one. If there is one thing that the October 7th attacks proved conclusively it's that Israeli intelligence in these areas isn't anywhere near the standard to identify each individual Hamas member. Even if they successfully achieved the impossible Hamas would just claim they were all civilians and that the Israelis are mad dog killers. In practicality it would result in years of sniper attacks and heavy surveillance in the area. A ground occupation by any other name. It also ignores the Gaza metro. Thousands of miles of tunnels which were used to sneak the fighters and supplies around for October 7th. It's also worth noting that if the other side ever gain the upper hand the promised war of extermination will happen.

Assuming they had done exactly as you suggested there would still be claims of genocide, ethnic cleansing and such. There would have been zero effect on the operational capability of Hamas whatsoever and they'd they'd turn the events of October 7th into a quarterly event. As you were courteous enough to lay your cards on the table here are mine:

Hamas needs to be removed, militarily. A government needs to be in place. Not a puppet government put in by Israel or America, a government that has a mandate from the people of Gaza and the West Bank. The international community can easily force such a referendum. The whole place is funded by foreign donations. The EU and Ireland have even sank a nice few pound into it. These donations need to be witheld pending an election. Aid depending on reform is not a new concept. The only way to supervise such an election would be to have other Arab states involved in overseeing it. Only with the people properly represented is a negotiation even worth attending. Dragging this river to the sea nonsense about the place needs to stop. They're not getting it in this century and acting like it is a realistic possibility drags out the conflict. Agreement will never be reached with Islamic militants. The international community needs to stop propping up and deluding these assholes into thinking they will get what they want.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Israel knew far, far more about October 7 before it happened than they are willing to publicly let on. And though Hamas leadership have said in their own war speak (from a safe and secure distance) that they would "do October 7th again and again," this would be impossible in practical terms... unless the IDF again ignored warnings, again left themselves suspiciously (yes, suspiciously) vulnerable to breach, again delayed responding to initial warnings, again killed many of their own through some variant of the Hannibal directive, etc., etc. October 7th wasn't just unprecedented, it was also unrepeatable. Regardless of what they may claim to the contrary, both Hamas and Israel know this full well.

[hellfire]

That was addressed to Oilkiller. You'll just spout bollocks for another ten pages drifting from point to point as you're proven wrong. Conversation of opposing views is what would normally happen if you weren't here.