Coronavirus

The Butcher · 2870 · 116657

Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2820 on: May 04, 2021, 03:18:08 PM
So regardless of how it is reported, the fact that the studies are still being done shows how little is actually known along with how much is known. Yet here we are.... follow the science!!!

No idea what the cancer bit is about there, but studies are ongoing about all sorts of things that we nevertheless treat for. "Follow the science" doesn't mean "wait until science is finished", cos, eh, such a point will never be reached. Any logic stating that because studies are still ongoing we shouldn't be vaccinating is categorically flawed, especially if the only studies being produced as evidence of ongoing research merely reinforce both what is already known and how best to target it.


astfgyl

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Reply #2821 on: May 04, 2021, 03:32:10 PM
The cancer comment was in reference to the forthcoming avalanche of untreated and undiagnosed cancers which will be coming as a direct consequence of the absolutely fucking ridiculous overreaction to covid.

And this sentence.... ""Follow the science" doesn't mean "wait until science is finished", cos, eh, such a point will never be reached" is exactly the point I have been making.

So imagine a scenario where someone is at risk of developing severe disease from SC2 infection and the good doctor says "well there is an experimental treatment available under an emergency use authorisation which I could give you. There are some risks involved (proceeds to rattle off likelihoods of bad things happening vs likelihood of good things happening) but I feel they are minimal and should be outweighed by the benefits. Either way it's up to yourself" The patient then proceeds to exercise informed consent and the world is a better place.

Instead we have mass vaccination centres set up immediately and talk of how to mandate the fucking thing with less than 12 months of actual experience with what the thing does, whether it actually works and whether there will be undesirable side effects and everybody is told "the cavalry is coming" and lo and behold the next thing is the cavalry will be coming for the young children as well and everyone else as soon as possible.

Fucking upside down world. Follow the science by all means but not this fucking shite. And the best of it all is that it still won't get anyone their freedom back, because covid 21 will need to be dealt with first, through the booster shots which have already been ordered while the fake debate about whether they will be needed rages on in the media. I actually can't believe everyone hasn't seen this for the sham it is yet.

Edit: Father in law just called in, to goad me over the situation in India and to tell me how it shows I've been wrong all along and now won't I follow the science and listen to the experts' advice... So I asked him why he was here sitting in my kitchen instead of following the advice and why was he high fiving me and drinking cans with me for the last 12 months if he was following the experts and heeding the advice, and then I asked him when was the last time he washed his hands because they look filthy. So he left in a huff calling me a conspiracy theorist.  :laugh: I shouldn't have enjoyed it so much but I did. Fucking amazes me how many people think that others should follow the advice while picking and choosing which bits suit themselves, and this notion that it can only be caught from strangers is the funniest of all. Such dissonance.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 04:01:35 PM by astfgyl »


Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2822 on: May 04, 2021, 03:56:02 PM
What has any of that got to do with the reasoning you put forward, which basically reduced to saying that the vaccination couldn't be roll-out ready yet because study of the virus is still ongoing? That is not what following the science implies at all. A big hint is when the people doing the ongoing science conclude that vaccinations of the kind available is a good strategy.

What part of everything going on that is genuinely sham might be slightly more limpid if those shouting "Sham!" loudest didn't give the appearance of throwing anything and everything at the COVID response fan. 


astfgyl

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Reply #2823 on: May 04, 2021, 04:16:08 PM
The vaccination shouldn't be roll out ready because the study of the vaccine is still ongoing. And it deserves to have every bit of shit thrown at it because the whole discourse has been shit from day one. Is it fair to say there have been deaths from the vaccines? Did that happen in the initial trials? No it didn't but it has happened since, and although it is very minimal amount of incidents, it didn't show in the initial phase but is happening now because the initial study group was so focused (under 55, no conditions and not on any medication) vs the indiscriminate jabbing going on now. It should be available for anyone who wants to take it based on their own perceived level of risk, no more, no less. Like I don't think an individual scientist working on a vaccine is doing anything other than trying to come up with something that works. It's their industry, it would be better for business if it did work. Even better again if it works better than the other products, so the incentive to do good is certainly there. The truth is though, that we simply don't know if it will work but we are being sold the idea as the saviour of mankind and the key to unlocking our freedom. That is a sham.

Where are all the people dropping dead in the streets, like we got shown from China? Did they have some sort of worse strain that didn't reach everywhere else? How did China declare an end to their situation with no vaccine? How did they have that unreal new year party in Wuhan without the vaccine? Where did the isolate that the vaccines are based on come from? (hint, there wasn't one, strictly speaking) Maybe a bit of patience would result in a far more effective vaccine based on what is known since the manufacture began last year? Have to keep saying I'm not against it in principle, but just because I don't eat human doesn't make me a vegetarian either.

Edit, sick of making new posts: More tomfoolery.. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_2121 The silly part is that this system has been in the pipeline for years, but is being presented as the solution to SC2 as if it is a novel idea for a novel virus. Sure when people were banging on about immunity passports and coerced or forced vaccinations last year, they were called conspiracy theorists. The maddest part of that is that as each thing these crazy cunts predicted comes true, people (including me) kinda fob it off as coincidence. How right do they have to be before they are right? I'm more in the death by 1000 cuts camp personally because of the logistical problems involved, but it is getting spooky how much of say Alex Jones' schtick is getting realistic. Well I haven't watched him in at least 10 years but he was saying all this shite then so I presume he still is.

Fuck it, I'm on repeat. Taking at least a week off this thread unless I get called out.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:00:01 PM by astfgyl »


Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2824 on: May 04, 2021, 06:32:35 PM
As I said before, for folks like you and Alex Jones, "they" are damned if they do and damned if they don't. When paltry added freedoms are announced for vaccinated people, or when the vaccinated are recommended to keep wearing masks, you go at "them" for lying that the vaccine would be a ticket for freedom. When broad allowances are suggested, such as easing restrictions on international travel for the vaccinated, you go at "them" for coercion and holding people to ransom. It's simply an absolutely undiscerning contrarian position, over-flowing with distortion, bias, surface readings, and total paranoia. Alex Jones indeed.


astfgyl

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Reply #2825 on: May 04, 2021, 07:33:51 PM
Well I did say unless I got called out....

I have no time for AJ. I watched him when he seemed mildly interesting years ago and soon got bored with it.

So let me address these one by one:

"When paltry added freedoms are announced for vaccinated people, or when the vaccinated are recommended to keep wearing masks, you go at "them" for lying that the vaccine would be a ticket for freedom."

Yes that is known as lies, telling people to take a certain product to regain the freedom they once had and then not giving it to them. No one should be vaccinated for anything other than health benefits anyway and I think any sane person would agree. In fact tying vaccination or lack of it to any definition of freedom is simply wrong.

"When broad allowances are suggested, such as easing restrictions on international travel for the vaccinated, you go at "them" for coercion and holding people to ransom."

You have conveniently skipped over the part where these health passports have been in the works for years and have nothing to do with SC2. They were happening anyway and the roadmap is published on the EU website since late 2017 or early 2018. Many countries have requirements for certain shots before entry, that is nothing new, but this version is for within the EU and if I remember correctly, freedom of movement is one of the main pillars of EU membership or so my Polish friends tell me and some of the Irish living and working in the likes of France and Spain would say the same. We either are in the EU or not, and if we are it is supposed to be freedom of movement between member states is it not? So requiring vaccination status is a form of coercion. There is the PCR alternative, but it's prohibitively expensive for say a family of 4 when compared to free jabs.

So you are trying to create a contrast between the two positions I've taken there which doesn't exist and for a fella who has spoken here of his studies on confirmation bias, you suffer badly from it yourself, using the mere mention of Alex Jones' name to attempt to discredit the point I was making in the last paragraph, which was that what seemed like the ramblings of a madman (or someone simply playing to a certain crowd more like) a decade ago is now being accepted as all grand and above board. Do you agree or disagree with the point I was making?

"It's simply an absolutely undiscerning contrarian position, over-flowing with distortion, bias, surface readings, and total paranoia"

It's undiscerning because there are so many ways to attack the amount of bullshit tied to this whole experience (lockdowns, masks, social distancing, PCR, case counts, asymptomatic spread, silencing of dissent, loss of freedom, government overreach, police state tactics, fuck the list goes on and on). It's contrarian because I can see how wrong it all is. It's not particularly distorted because see the last 2 sentences. Surface readings because there are only so many hours in a day. Lastly, it isn't total paranoia when it all turns out to be true, bringing it back to the Alex Jones comment and I'm sure if I went back in this very thread I would find myself predicting all of these very predictable things.

I hope this addresses your rather shittily made point and helps you to overcome your own obvious confirmation bias. Thinking there is nothing to see here is how we have ended up where we are at right now. How much will have to come true before even you start to think it might all be a bit dicey?

Edit: I can't resist... https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/92413   :P
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 09:45:23 PM by astfgyl »


Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2826 on: May 04, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Can't resist posting an article saying that the J&J and possibly AstraZeneca vaccines should be placed on pause - or at the very least limited to certain demographics - as a result of anomalous side-effects, but notably saying that such a pause should be in favour of one of the mRNA vaccines which you claim, contra the author's views, aren't even vaccines?

This is what I mean by contrarian surface-reading; everything with an element of something that seems to fit with the whole police state, new world order schtick is flung out as proof, regardless of what the actual bottom line of the piece is. So a study of ongoing research into the virus is proof that we don't know enough to be vaccinating, even though the authors conclude that their study shows spike protein targeting therapeutics will be of benefit. And an op-ed from a health care specialist advising a pause on the J&J vaccine is proof that we shouldn't be gung-ho vaccinating, even though his bottom line is simply that we should be favouring the other vaccine that doesn't cause the unwanted side-effect.

From your last link:
Quote
A small faction of people vigorously opposed to all vaccination have done damage in several ways. First, they have discouraged individuals from getting necessary childhood immunization. Second, they have cast aspersions around the mRNA vaccines, which offer amazing efficacy.

Any genuine arguments, and there are many, get lost in the head-long rush to use everything as an argument, even things which patently aren't solid arguments or are even fundamentally arguments against the position you're trying to shoe horn them into. That is where discernment is needed.


astfgyl

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Reply #2827 on: May 04, 2021, 10:19:36 PM
Can't resist posting an article saying that the J&J and possibly AstraZeneca vaccines should be placed on pause - or at the very least limited to certain demographics - as a result of anomalous side-effects, but notably saying that such a pause should be in favour of one of the mRNA vaccines which you claim, contra the author's views, aren't even vaccines?

This is what I mean by contrarian surface-reading; everything with an element of something that seems to fit with the whole police state, new world order schtick is flung out as proof, regardless of what the actual bottom line of the piece is. So a study of ongoing research into the virus is proof that we don't know enough to be vaccinating, even though the authors conclude that their study shows spike protein targeting therapeutics will be of benefit. And an op-ed from a health care specialist advising a pause on the J&J vaccine is proof that we shouldn't be gung-ho vaccinating, even though his bottom line is simply that we should be favouring the other vaccine that doesn't cause the unwanted side-effect.

From your last link:
Quote
A small faction of people vigorously opposed to all vaccination have done damage in several ways. First, they have discouraged individuals from getting necessary childhood immunization. Second, they have cast aspersions around the mRNA vaccines, which offer amazing efficacy.

Any genuine arguments, and there are many, get lost in the head-long rush to use everything as an argument, even things which patently aren't solid arguments or are even fundamentally arguments against the position you're trying to shoe horn them into. That is where discernment is needed.

Oh be the lord jaysus. You are banging on to me here about surface reading and you are after taking that from the obvious joke I was making in reference to the to and fro we were having and trying to keep it all in good nature by quoting that last thing. I'm sorry you missed it but here's the headline and I thought that the tongue sticking out emoji might give the idea that it was a joke I was making in the spirit of the stuff we were saying about following the science....

..... "COVID Vax Opponents and Rigid Proponents...Are Both Anti-Science?"   ..... :P

Get it now? I do have a sense of humour about it all still but it's hard to get the really dry stuff going in text.

Edit: I didn't read the article either, I just saw the headline. I dunno what it says at all beyond the headline but from the bit you quoted there it sounds like I might agree with the general tone of it. I think anti vaxxers are being silly myself. I wouldn't like to be associating with those lads either but I can see how they would end up that way and there is even the argument to be made that it is because of the success of vaccines over the years that the anti vaxxers get to be an actual thing like a movement of some sort, my argument here being that of course they wouldn't get the diseases because of all the other folks who did take vaccines in their stead thus proving they never needed those vaccines, and then that's of course countered by the argument that if they were never mandated or required then there wouldn't be such an anti movement because they would be railing against the concept of free choice. I have many thoughts that are pro vaccination and if these ones prove to be safe and effective then that is great news. In the meantime, we need to call a spade a spade on how rushed and forced this one is. Go on, argue that it isn't rushed and forced and then argue it out in your head about if you'd want your kids to be forced to get it as soon as possible and that should tell you a lot about how safe you personally think it is. Then you can hop off it by informed consent. Sure get 2 brands altogether it might be twice as good. Soon as I deem it safe I'll surely have to have it if I'm going to need it to as much as buy a loaf of bread and that's sounding less and less ridiculous by the day, too.

Best of luck to anyone who thinks it's all the finest but the gut feeling should be kicking in strong for loads by now. I don't give a fuck which brand of the shit it is, none of em have been studied for any length of time and I haven't been enrolled for any test or been offered money for it, so I get to be in the control group, which supposedly also a risk, because let's face it if I don't get the covid vaccine I could die of anything at all at any time and that isn't the level of risk I'm prepared to accept.

Can I have the week off now?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:42:02 PM by astfgyl »


Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2828 on: May 04, 2021, 10:28:56 PM
I agree that the rigid proponents are anti-scientific in their approach, and believe it or not, in other online and real life incarnations, where I'm surrounded by such people, my voice is very different on the subject. Fact still remains that you're calling on scientists, once seriously, once in jest, but ignoring what they're actually saying and all of the scientific weight they put behind that. Why?


astfgyl

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Reply #2829 on: May 04, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
I agree that the rigid proponents are anti-scientific in their approach, and believe it or not, in other online and real life incarnations, where I'm surrounded by such people, my voice is very different on the subject. Fact still remains that you're calling on scientists, once seriously, once in jest, but ignoring what they're actually saying and all of the scientific weight they put behind that. Why?

I was after editing in the response to this in the last reply without even being asked so here is the copy:

Quote
Edit: I didn't read the article either, I just saw the headline. I dunno what it says at all beyond the headline but from the bit you quoted there it sounds like I might agree with the general tone of it. I think anti vaxxers are being silly myself. I wouldn't like to be associating with those lads either but I can see how they would end up that way and there is even the argument to be made that it is because of the success of vaccines over the years that the anti vaxxers get to be an actual thing like a movement of some sort, my argument here being that of course they wouldn't get the diseases because of all the other folks who did take vaccines in their stead thus proving they never needed those vaccines, and then that's of course countered by the argument that if they were never mandated or required then there wouldn't be such an anti movement because they would be railing against the concept of free choice. I have many thoughts that are pro vaccination and if these ones prove to be safe and effective then that is great news. In the meantime, we need to call a spade a spade on how rushed and forced this one is. Go on, argue that it isn't rushed and forced and then argue it out in your head about if you'd want your kids to be forced to get it as soon as possible and that should tell you a lot about how safe you personally think it is. Then you can hop off it by informed consent. Sure get 2 brands altogether it might be twice as good. Soon as I deem it safe I'll surely have to have it if I'm going to need it to as much as buy a loaf of bread and that's sounding less and less ridiculous by the day, too.

Best of luck to anyone who thinks it's all the finest but the gut feeling should be kicking in strong for loads by now. I don't give a fuck which brand of the shit it is, none of em have been studied for any length of time and I haven't been enrolled for any test or been offered money for it, so I get to be in the control group, which supposedly also a risk, because let's face it if I don't get the covid vaccine I could die of anything at all at any time and that isn't the level of risk I'm prepared to accept.

Can I have the week off now?

Quote
Fact still remains that you're calling on scientists, once seriously, once in jest, but ignoring what they're actually saying and all of the scientific weight they put behind that. Why?

Yes, and all of the time banging on about how the science is far from settled outside of the political spectrum. Does my point not prove itself as you make it? I can conjure up people with letters after their names all day long at this stage and no matter what I want them to say I will find one who says it. My own experience of being alive the last year tells me that the promised apocalypse is on hold in Ireland for the moment and the rest I dunno it defies belief really


leatherface

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Reply #2830 on: May 09, 2021, 02:40:07 PM
State of alarm suspended here in Spain. People talking like 'itís all over'. But itís not. How does that work? Can I now take off my mask?  Nope. Is it really all over now? Is that it? Nope, but yes itís all over. Very confusing.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 02:42:25 PM by leatherface »


Grim Reality

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Reply #2831 on: May 09, 2021, 10:22:14 PM
All the researching, the soul searching, the gut feelings, the suspicions, all the it doesn't add up etc etc etc...........

The whole fucking thing boils down to one thing really. Would the (worldwide) health service cope with a rampant spread of Covid? The answer is No. In ordinary time health services are stretched. An unexpected flu where a relatively small number of extra ICU beds are required cripples the whole shebang. Thats the long and short of it. The reason for lockdowns and restrictions. The alternative was to arrange big temporary palliative care dying field hospitals, and let the 99% who it doesn't kill get on with normal life.

In the modern age, where life is sacrosanct,  no one was gonna get away with that.


Caomhaoin

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Reply #2832 on: May 15, 2021, 05:44:03 PM
Got the first jab today. They are pure rapid getting you in and out here in Madrid, surprising!


Black Shepherd Carnage

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Reply #2833 on: May 15, 2021, 06:11:49 PM
I haven't read this yet, but it's being shared and commented all over my Twitter network, so it's apparently discussion worthy at least:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/


Blackout

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Reply #2834 on: May 19, 2021, 04:34:39 PM
There's nothing more dangerous than an outdoor cinema https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/people/arid-40292990.html

These rotten pig idiots are nowhere to be seen unless you've 4 euro of weed or operating an outdoor Cinema.