The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Mooncat]

I appreciate the reasoned debate. I'd say I'm more central but left leaning, and pretty sick of both the left and the right right now lol. I just don't know how we heal the divide...

I'm also randomly remembering Lee Sharpe's goal celebration where he did the vaguely Macarena-esque dance and licked his finger at the end. I remember folks copying that one on the playground back in the day lol.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I'm also randomly remembering Lee Sharpe's goal celebration where he did the vaguely Macarena-esque dance and licked his finger at the end. I remember folks copying that one on the playground back in the day lol.

Now there's a blast from the past!

[Mooncat]

Aye, all you're saying is fair enough. But liberal Canada was really allowed run riot over the last two years. Every liberal Canadian colleague (all academics) I'm connected with on Twitter I ended up, one by one, masking, the levels of their insane COVID panic were so high. And I'm saying that only with respect to the fact that Canada is still 90th or lower in the world in terms of mortality per million. But even with that, the liberal camp kept demanding more restrictions, and kept on getting listened to. Kids not being allowed talk to each other during lunch, if I hadn't heard that one directly from a close friend now living there with kids, I'd have thought it was KC pulling something off Telegram. That atmosphere for two years would drive *me* crazy, so you can only imagine what it would do to the heads of people who thought we were already at overkill with the first lockdown. Panic has been allowed to call the shots in Canada and that, in turn, has dictated to everyone that they not live how they wish to live, down to dictating how their children can and cannot play. Don't know if you have kids, but I'd have snapped at that too.

I don't think it's been anywhere near as bad as that, and certainly not for an entire 2yrs (regarding the kids in school). May be a bit of fed up exaggeration from your friend, or possibly an extra strict school, or maybe even a temporary measure at certain schools, but schools have mostly just been confined to their specific class cohorts and within that can interact with each other fairly normally. I work in the library service and work closely with many schools plus my gf is a teacher and I've never seen or heard of anything quite that restrictive.

[Mooncat]

I will also concede that provinces are self-governed and perhaps there were stricter schools in a different province, I genuinely don't know...

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Perish the thought of me taking anything anybody says at face value, I looked it up as soon as it was said:
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-students-told-not-to-speak-during-lunch-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-1.5635328

[Mooncat]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that one. And the premier of Ontario isn't exactly liberal either. In fairness that report is from Oct so not exactly 2 full years of no interaction, but yes, I agree that's a little more on the hysterical side of measures to be taking.

[mickO)))]

For all the folks talking bollocks about Canada, I'm here now and the protests are far from peaceful. They are actively harrassing people, breaking shop windows, forcing closures (local businesses online begging for calm because they are almost at the point of closing permanently), blocking routes from emergency vehicles and essential trade (this is what the emergency act mainly covers), assaulting people etc. Depends on your leanings of course whether you want to latch onto the faction of protesters that actually are peaceful, or the ones who are genuinely waving Swastikas in the city centres and causing a lot of trouble. Both sides are there. Referring to them overall as a peaceful protest though is simply untrue. And for the record, the majority of provincial premiers have been warning of increased sanctions and action against the truckers for a while now and the decision to invoke the Emergency Measures Act came out of a meeting of all the premiers and the government, it's not like Trudeau just pulled it out of his hole.

The fascination with Trudeau is really intriguing to me. He's an ok PM but nothing terrible, yet right-leaning people have latched on to him so hard like he's the anti-christ or something. It reminds me of the way left wingers have latched onto Jordan Peterson in the same kind of way. Both of them are actually quite moderate, but hysterical people who have lost the plot seem to be using them as the lightning rods for this whole culture war...

I lived under Trudeau for over 5 years. We have had some bad politicians in Ireland but none hold a candle to Trudeau. I could sit here typing all night listing the many underhand things he has done.

I have a friend who I was just on the phone to an hour ago living in downtown Ottawa who is telling a completely different story to you. Are you living in Ottawa? I have not seen one shred of evidence to back up the violent protester claims and you know as well as I do if it existed the Government funded MSM would be all over it. Swastikas in the city centres ? Not sure were you are getting this from as the only place it seems to be coming from was Trudeaus mouth after he came out of hiding. The protest has been going on for 4 weeks and so far I have seen one picture of a Swastika that was taken from the highway which looks suspect to say the least.

[Mooncat]

Is your friend in support of the trucker convoy? Because they tend to deny absolutely everything. And I also have friends in Ottawa who give much more vivid accounts than what I was describing. Including people who've been shoved and spat on. And that's just people I personally know.

I'm in Alberta, which is usually the flashpoint for right wing nuts in Canada, and yes I have seen all the stuff I'm talking about here. Including the ridiculous moment one of the conservative MPs here had the good sense to get interviewed on the news in front of a protester holding a Canadian flag with a swastika on it.

In fairness, you saying you haven't seen a shred of evidence means absolutely nothing. It's happening, whether it suits you to believe it or not.

[mickO)))]

Is your friend in support of the trucker convoy? Because they tend to deny absolutely everything. And I also have friends in Ottawa who give much more vivid accounts than what I was describing. Including people who've been shoved and spat on. And that's just people I personally know.

I'm in Alberta, which is usually the flashpoint for right wing nuts in Canada, and yes I have seen all the stuff I'm talking about here. Including the ridiculous moment one of the conservative MPs here had the good sense to get interviewed on the news in front of a protester holding a Canadian flag with a swastika on it.

In fairness, you saying you haven't seen a shred of evidence means absolutely nothing. It's happening, whether it suits you to believe it or not.

Yes my friend is in support of the convoy is your friend against it because they tend believe all of the garbage that CBC has been reporting for the last month like trying to connect the convoy to Russia?

I think saying I haven't seen any evidence does mean something since the Government funded media have been against this protest from day one and it has been going on for four weeks and not once piece of evidence has been shown to back these claims up. Also the crime rate in Ottawa is at all time low right now for the first time in years.

Trudeau called the truckers anti vax for the first two weeks when most of them are vaccinated they are anti mandates. Trudeau said the protesters were stealing food from the mouths of the homeless I have seen several of the daily youtube feeds showing people feeding the homeless. Trudeau called the truckers a fringe element with unacceptable views. Being against mandates when over 90% of the country is vaccinated is now an unacceptable view?

[Mooncat]

I wasn't talking about what my friends have seen on the news, I was talking about what they have personally seen and experienced. And I've already addressed that there are plenty of peaceful protesters there, they are not the concern here.

Not sure what you mean by no evidence, there's been widespread reports of people being harassed and businesses forced to close etc. Including the people I've spoken to and from what I've seen myself. God forbid you walk past them with a mask on. Not to mention all the businesses downtown that have had to close, that have had their windows smashed etc. Is what you actually mean, "because I haven't seen an explicit video of it I'm going to choose not to believe the negative things people are saying about the convoy"? Because that's quite different.

My friend who got spat on for wearing a mask? When she posted about it online someone commented, "There's no way that was someone from the trucker convoy. Was probably a liberal trying to stir up negative press about them". That's what we're dealing with here in terms of denial.

[mickO)))]

What I mean by evidence is videos, photos not news reports like the ones I mentioned above trying to connect the convoy to Russia with nothing to back it up from media sources that rely heavily on Government funding.

Over half the premiers are against Trudeau invoking the emergency act.

As for the businesses being damaged why was this not a concern during the BLM riots in 2020? I was living in downtown Toronto when businesses had to board up the windows for fear of looting or damage during the riots which went on, on a nightly basis for two weeks. They also caused major damage in Montreal. Trudeau never spoke out against this, didn't freeze any bank accounts, didn't stop any funding sources or invoke the emergency act. So, if it is happening now which I don't believe it is then I am not sure why it is an issue now and wasn't 2 years ago.

People have had kids playing on bouncing castles in the middle of downtown Ottawa both last weekend and the weekend before that I saw this myself on the live stream. I highly doubt this is going on while the swastika waving far right are running around the town terrorizing the residents.

[Mooncat]

So, you do understand my point then that for you evidence has to be a video, and you're choosing to ignore the first-hand reports of people who have been harrassed? IE you're dismissing that as credible evidence, because it suits you to? You keep mentioning news reports and I keep saying that's not what I'm talking about.

Bar one or two, the premiers are more annoyed that he didn't deal with it immediately rather than letting it get to the point where the Emergency Act is revoked.

Also, I don't think videos of kids on bouncy castles negates anything negative going on. Like I said, no-one is denying that there are peaceful protesters there too.  I mean, are these livestreams from within the convoy? If so, then of course they're going to be showing the peaceful stuff. You've clearly decided on your position and you don't seem super open to alternative viewpoints to yours and are mainly looking for things to support that, so I'm not going to continue debating about it. I've said pretty much all I want to say already with my previous posts, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[mickO)))]

I am ignoring them in the same way you are ignoring the first hand reports I have been getting of the protests being peaceful. Which you are doing because it suits your narrative?

Yes, the livestreams are from within the convoy. Funny you should mention that because I have not been able to find any livestreams of the violence and swastika waving. Believe me I have looked. Once again you would think people would be livestreaming it if it was actually happening.

I am not open to opposing views? You are one who is making claims of illegal and violent protests with absolutely nothing concrete to back it up. While at the same dismissing many of the points I am making. It is quite evident from your previous posts that you are pro Trudeau and very much against the trucker convoy. I am open to having my viewpoint changed but I need more than my mate was spat on so it is ok for Trudeau to declare martial law and shut down anybody who doesn't agree with him.

[Mooncat]

Man...I mean a debate is a debate, but your logic and reasoning in that last post there are seriously questionable. Like the whole way through.

You do realize that crime happens all over the world, and just because most people don't experience it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen? Just because there are people experiencing peaceful protests, doesn't mean there also aren't people experiencing violent ones? and I'm not supporting a narrative, I'm talking about what I've seen with my own eyes just a few blocks from where I live.

And with regards to livestreams, it's not like violence is scheduled, or constantly ongoing, otherwise there wouldn't be much crime at all, right? It's much easier to livestream stationed, peaceful protesters than isolated outbursts of harassment, violence, vandalism etc.

And it's clear we have very definite views on what constitutes evidence. I'd say what I've seen, what the people that live around here are experiencing, the local businesses afraid to open because of what they've already been subjected to etc is pretty solid evidence that there are pretty significant non-peaceful elements to the protest. You're free to disagree, that's your right. Reducing my entire argument (several pages worth by now) of points I've been making down to, "my mate was spat on so it is ok for Trudeau to declare martial law and shut down anybody who doesn’t agree with him" is the type of moronic, reductive, rhetoric that absolutely kills any chance of reasonable debate (and funnily enough is the exact rhetoric that hysterical idiots on both sides of the right and left fringes constantly fall back on, hence why we're all still stuck with this deep divide). Never mind the fact that he literally has not declared martial law. I have also been quite up front that I am not particularly pro-Trudeau, that he's just ok and is the lesser of two evils. Did you even read the previous debate, or did you just read the "For all the people talking bollocks about Canada" post and jump straight to replying?

I mean I'm not some screaming leftie here, and people absolutely have the right to protest, but when I'm walking downtown and see smashed storefront windows and see people getting harassed for wearing a mask it's a problem, y'know? And that's before you even count the cost of the illegally blocked roadways and bridges (and yes, there's plenty of evidence of that online).

[Mooncat]

This is a fairly interesting read. What you want to believe or disbelieve from it is one thing, but it does touch on a lot of the points we've been discussing, and the writer seems to be trying to be objective where possible (though def left-leaning). What it does well I think is break down the nuance of the protesters, and the groups-within-groups. It helps highlight beyond the simplistic "truckers good!" or "truckers bad!" mentality.

https://theline.substack.com/p/dispatch-from-the-ottawa-front-sloly?fbclid=IwAR2uJ9VdYfOpCkuIYQopK9ql8kAuM0SmjjMYmD8pvyYNHYiMIF8_Y6jqSz8