The meaning of life

[Eoin McLove]

Following your internal voice is true but it's also a paradox.  We are all influenced and are unable to grow without external influence.  We need to follow the wisdom of others, to be exposed to new ideas,  and there are so many and they are constantly changing with the advent of technology and developments within science.   I suppose you are getting at the point that we ultimately make our own reality,  which would indicate that life itself is inherently meaningless?

[mugz]

Following your internal voice is true but it's also a paradox.  We are all influenced and are unable to grow without external influence.  We need to follow the wisdom of others, to be exposed to be ideas,  and there are so many.  I suppose you are getting at the point that we ultimately make our own reality,  which would say that life itself is inherently meaningless?

well I kind of think there is less interchange between the inner voice and social mores, and even just passive influences from weather or people or cultural items than you're suggesting above. the taboo seems to be in rejecting the inner-outer interrelationship, and going inner-inner, but without narcissism or depression.

With age the realisation is that everything is there to keep you disconnected from your inner self, as 90s self-help as that sounds. That we all create our own reality might stem from what I'm saying but oddly it seems less important than the process of building a bridge between you and yourself. I'm not quite saying that life is inherently meaningless either, though again it is a passive conclusion/consequence of the inner self/reconnection thing.

I'll be 40 next year and the last 6 months have been spent in a funk about time wasted, things that seemed important but weren't, important things unsaid/undone.

[Pedrito]

I wonder with the current state of the world, with the BLM protests and the ongoing lunacy (in my view) of the trans debate, are we, as a species and a global society, seeing a deeper search for meaning or are we seeing a complete break from/ breakdown of meaning? Could all of these various fractures and all of the copious, disparate interpretations of them be taken as evidence that there is, in fact, no meaning to be gained or lost in the first place? Certainly no single common meaning or truth beyond that of the individual. Maybe trying to find substance in, and quantification of, existence through the collective is a spiritual cul de sac. If events can be legitimately viewed from two diametrically opposed view pints that lead to completely different versions of reality,  then is it simply a matter of picking one reality over the other,  or picking one unreality over the other?

I think this is how we´  ve learnt to interpret things, that there is no fact or meaning to things, we´  re being sold this idea, programmed in many ways. It comes out of recent history, the idea that everyone has an equal voice and an equal right and an equal capacity etc etc. These are ideas that led up to  the French Revolution, led to Communism and the likes. Man as nothing more than flesh and blood and a cog in the machine, everything is mechanical made of unconscious matter, despite us believing prior to that that animals, the sun amongst others were conscious.

Yes, there are different ways to interpret the world to see the world but there are loads of holes in that too. Different strains of philosophy will argue one way or the other and they´ re all very compelling, but, honestly, I wouldn´  t be writing anything off just yet. An awful lot of what we perceive to be scientific fact is merely speculation and theory that we´ ve come to accept as fact. I think we´  re only starting to scratch the surface with a lot of it. I´´ m open to correction but Consciousness hasn´ t been explained by science, and it´  s going to be fascinating to see where it leads us. See the Hard Problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

So, we´ re in a moment in history. We´  re still only coming out of the dark ages. Spirit, God, the Universe, purpose, Consciousness..who knows what´ s real or not? It´ s going to be really interesting to see where we might go with everything if we don´ t end up burning the whole thing to the ground first, which would be my worry.

[Eoin McLove]

I'm fascinated by consciousness. It's such a difficult question but from what I have read about it and the various discussions I've listened to on it I'd err toward it being an emergent property of brain functions. But what I have grown to love about science, having taken an active interest over the past few years, is that very fact of it being all so new and unexplored. I enjoy the dichotomy of feeling like you are learning something true while trying to remain flexible and open to the idea that all you know is actually wrong; a new theory arrives to throw a spanner in the works. Rather than finding despair in that, I think the process itself is meaningful even though it means you will probably die with more questions than answers. 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Isn't it funny how attached we can become to very specific, detailed, contingent value systems all the while admitting we don't know what life is about?

[Pedrito]

Hmmmm I´ m not sure you´  re being completely fair there. The idea that everything is meaningless is what he is talking about and that is used politically now to argue for whatever is de moda.

But, Chris, you´ re a great man for this stuff. Would be interesting to hear your perspectives.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Not aimed at Andy at all. It's a notion I remind myself of every day as a means of returning to the sphere of my own direct experience. Meaning, in the grand sense intended here, has a tendency to short circuit emotional response, because there is no meaning system that perfectly matches experience, but that fact is not something the mind-brain likes to face. So we lose our shit if we don't have a means of relaxing the cords of "meaning".

[Pedrito]

Apologies, I took you up wrong there.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Sure wouldn't I be an awful shitehawk if I was to try and make out, here of all places, that I don't get caught up in certain value systems myself!? I do try to favour those that most leave open others to discover their own experience, but even that may be misled...in any case, it's not "better" than anything else, just what I prefer. Believing individual adults still have the capacity to break free of whatever conceptual systems they have assimilated, and "knowing" that no subjective experience comes close to those moments of boundary dissolution, thus hoping that as many people as possible will live in times and places where that is permitted, encouraged even, that's a world I'd consider a human utopia of sorts; where the meaning of life would be free exploration of meaning. All very much paraphrased from Nietzsche and Feyerabend and McKenna and Watts, if that all floats anyone's boat.

[Pedrito]

Funny you should mention Feyerabend, I found myself reading something by him purely by chance a while back. Any book you'd recommend or is he better listened to?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I don't even know what his voice sounds like! Against Method is extremely entertaining and rich. He's very much a Jungian trickster, but a good sort.

[mugz]

I wonder with the current state of the world, with the BLM protests and the ongoing lunacy (in my view) of the trans debate, are we, as a species and a global society, seeing a deeper search for meaning or are we seeing a complete break from/ breakdown of meaning? Could all of these various fractures and all of the copious, disparate interpretations of them be taken as evidence that there is, in fact, no meaning to be gained or lost in the first place? Certainly no single common meaning or truth beyond that of the individual. Maybe trying to find substance in, and quantification of, existence through the collective is a spiritual cul de sac. If events can be legitimately viewed from two diametrically opposed view pints that lead to completely different versions of reality,  then is it simply a matter of picking one reality over the other,  or picking one unreality over the other?

I think this is how we´  ve learnt to interpret things, that there is no fact or meaning to things, we´  re being sold this idea, programmed in many ways. It comes out of recent history, the idea that everyone has an equal voice and an equal right and an equal capacity etc etc. These are ideas that led up to  the French Revolution, led to Communism and the likes. Man as nothing more than flesh and blood and a cog in the machine, everything is mechanical made of unconscious matter, despite us believing prior to that that animals, the sun amongst others were conscious.

Yes, there are different ways to interpret the world to see the world but there are loads of holes in that too. Different strains of philosophy will argue one way or the other and they´ re all very compelling, but, honestly, I wouldn´  t be writing anything off just yet. An awful lot of what we perceive to be scientific fact is merely speculation and theory that we´ ve come to accept as fact. I think we´  re only starting to scratch the surface with a lot of it. I´´ m open to correction but Consciousness hasn´ t been explained by science, and it´  s going to be fascinating to see where it leads us. See the Hard Problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

So, we´ re in a moment in history. We´  re still only coming out of the dark ages. Spirit, God, the Universe, purpose, Consciousness..who knows what´ s real or not? It´ s going to be really interesting to see where we might go with everything if we don´ t end up burning the whole thing to the ground first, which would be my worry.

You've put out some great insights here

[mugz]

Funny you should mention Feyerabend, I found myself reading something by him purely by chance a while back. Any book you'd recommend or is he better listened to?

Last of the Feyerabenders, great film, full of esoteric hints

[mugz]

I wonder with the current state of the world, with the BLM protests and the ongoing lunacy (in my view) of the trans debate, are we, as a species and a global society, seeing a deeper search for meaning or are we seeing a complete break from/ breakdown of meaning? Could all of these various fractures and all of the copious, disparate interpretations of them be taken as evidence that there is, in fact, no meaning to be gained or lost in the first place? Certainly no single common meaning or truth beyond that of the individual. Maybe trying to find substance in, and quantification of, existence through the collective is a spiritual cul de sac. If events can be legitimately viewed from two diametrically opposed view pints that lead to completely different versions of reality,  then is it simply a matter of picking one reality over the other,  or picking one unreality over the other?

I think this is how we´  ve learnt to interpret things, that there is no fact or meaning to things, we´  re being sold this idea, programmed in many ways. It comes out of recent history, the idea that everyone has an equal voice and an equal right and an equal capacity etc etc. These are ideas that led up to  the French Revolution, led to Communism and the likes. Man as nothing more than flesh and blood and a cog in the machine, everything is mechanical made of unconscious matter, despite us believing prior to that that animals, the sun amongst others were conscious.

Yes, there are different ways to interpret the world to see the world but there are loads of holes in that too. Different strains of philosophy will argue one way or the other and they´ re all very compelling, but, honestly, I wouldn´  t be writing anything off just yet. An awful lot of what we perceive to be scientific fact is merely speculation and theory that we´ ve come to accept as fact. I think we´  re only starting to scratch the surface with a lot of it. I´´ m open to correction but Consciousness hasn´ t been explained by science, and it´  s going to be fascinating to see where it leads us. See the Hard Problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

So, we´ re in a moment in history. We´  re still only coming out of the dark ages. Spirit, God, the Universe, purpose, Consciousness..who knows what´ s real or not? It´ s going to be really interesting to see where we might go with everything if we don´ t end up burning the whole thing to the ground first, which would be my worry.

consciousness isn't really the big issue anymore- maybe 4 years ago, the focus moved elsewhere, some might say backwards, to older issues. Even that to and fro between 'hard' problems, and other things is kind of a trap, something to move beyond.

if you're over 30, Watts, Nietzsche, and Chomsky are to be thanked and replaced gently on the book shelf. Jung is different somehow, Jung is for life.

anyway we're all a little stupider than we like to think, but slowly, slowly we're showing some small signs of growth. Really small refinements before running out of time seems to be what it is.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Since you seem to have such a problem saying yes to the present, one might rather recommend taking Nietzsche the ja-sager and Watts the meditator back down off the shelf for some tips.