The meaning of life

[Eoin McLove]

You know you've been cooped up too long when you begin to ask these questions,  and that's true in my case.  The last two and a half months I've been doing a job that is utterly pointless and meaningless,  but it's easy and I'm being paid so I'm emotionally torn on its veracity to some degree.  Plus it's easy and relatively convenient,  giving me plenty of time to read, listen to music, have nice long walks in a beautiful location and listen to podcasts so I'm trying to at least use the time a bit wisely. 

Having all this time to myself has me questioning the meaning of the job,  naturally,  and that leads to the big question.  Is there a meaning to life? If so, is the meaning to be found in it or to be applied to it? Or is it a reciprocal relationship between those two states, ie do we define the meaning of our own lives and then spend our days feeding it through our actions,  through our pursuit of interests and so on?

Or perhaps the meaning of life is a single set thing,  a universal goal,  a holy grail that some will discover and other never will.  Maybe our lives,  no matter how fulfilling they seem to be to us as we live them,  have entirely missed the point and are in fact utterly meaningless in the end!

I have found myself in recent years becoming more and more fascinated by science- the one subject I failed in the Leaving Cert- and while I struggle with understanding much about it,  it feeds my imagination and feels somehow more concrete in its (admittedly often mind- shatteringly complex) quest for truth and understanding of reality than religion or spirituality. Ironically,  then,  it offers some sense of meaning while it often tells us that the universe is cold,  unfeeling and uncaring toward the human predicament.

What are your thoughts on this? Is life inherently meaningful,  meaningless,  a quest for one true meaning or a composite of accumulated,  diverse meanings tailored specifically to each individual?

[Kurt Cocaine]

Pssstt, wanna buy some DMT?

[Pentagrimes]

I mean, as someone who's genuinely kind of amazed to have succesfully made it to the age 42, I can't see any simpler or better answer than ye olde Bill & Ted adage of "Be Excellent  To One Another" at this point. There's little other meaning to it.

[Eoin McLove]

I think that's a fairly universal outlook on how to get through life relatively unscathed,  but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it meaning. Being sound to people and taking them as you meet them is a good attitude to have,  but it's not exactly inspiring in terms of giving your own existence some kind of momentum.

[Wiseblood]

My outlook on the meaning of life is somewhat at odds to what Permanent TSB currently think  So for the next 12 1/2 years I kinda have to coast along as they see fit.

I'm 15 years in the one job and through massive upheavals and challenges, especially  in the last 3 years, I'm itching for change and new challenges as a good new challenge is most rewarding. However I live in the Midlands and well paying jobs aren't too common so I just have to suck it up for now.  My definition of any meaning if life has been altered but I do take comfort that despite feeling a little painted into a corner that I'm at least succeeding in making sure my kids have a good life and that's not a bad thing.

[Giggles]

Some people say that our existence is to steer life towards it's "Ultimate Complexity".

4.6 odd billion years ago there was no Earth and our solar system was pretty much just a cloud of Hydrogen and Helium. Fuck all else happening in the world.

Fast forward to now and I'm sitting on a couch tapping a screen, and in a few minutes this message will be readily visible to anybody on this planet, if they choose to seek it via their own screens.

The only thing I'm certain about is that the world is getting increasingly ever more complex. It doesn't go backwards, it goes forwards. This complexity constantly mutates and I don't think that it is possible to go back to being just a cloud of hydrogen/helium.

So based on this, some say that our meaning is to aid the evolution of this complexity. Not saying these are my own views, but it's what came to mind when I saw the thread.

[Juggz]

We don't exist for a long, long time, then we exist for a very, very short time, then we cease to exist again for the rest of time. Find what it is which makes you happy and fill your limited time allocation doing it. There is no second go and no bonus level afterwards.

While I, personally, think it's unlikely given the vast infinity of the universe, there is a chance that this planet will be the only one to ever sustain intelligent life and, if that's the case, it's sad that so many of us spend so much time thinking of ways to be nasty and bring harm to each other. We, and this planet, are all we may ever have. With that in mind, "Be Excellent  To One Another" is as good a way of life as one can think of, surely? In the grand scheme of things, every one of us is utterly insignificant and any meaning we decide to apply to our existence doesn't really matter, no matter how much importance we perceive it to have. Our perception of that importance depends on the outlook of each individual. So, yeah, do the things you like and be nice.

[Pedrito]

I spent the last year resseading Nietzsche. I read 8 of his books and it completely reinvented or refreshed my way of seeing the world and witg much help from Black Shepherd. Since then I'm working through Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy which is just a fantastic book for understanding WHY we think the way we do. Both those philosopher's have allowed me to really deep dive into many notions or modes of thinking that I hadn't realised I posessed.

Currently I'm becoming obsessed with Carl Jung who was a student of Freud and who had a great love of Nietzsche. He talks about many things from our collective subconscious, how we are far more than just blank slates when we come to this world and despite him being one of the founding fathers I suppose of psychology, he delved into spirituality and mysticism to levels that are at times frightening.

Victor Frankl's 'Man's search for meaning' is worth a read if you want to get a sense of WHY it is worth living alongside Nietzsche whose life's work was dedicated to answering the universal question of nihilism...why life is worth living and how it can be done.

Jung, Nietzsche, especially talk about the ultimately futile nature of looking for meaning in the materialism of science. Jung was a believer in a higher or higher entities, archetypes, many influences that we cannpt beging to comprehend and he influenced all sorts of people like Alan Watts, Terence McKenna, Jordan Peterson etc etc etc.

The modern arrogance is that we have it all figured out. We are facing deep existential questions due to a lack of possible a guiding philosophy or belief/faith, whatever in our culture. I'm only scratching the surface of philosophy, but I believe it is something truly powerful. Psychology, sociology, theology even, there's so much out there taht's not just the regular 'ah there's no such thing as God, life is meaningless' trope that is being pushed massively these days on a subconscious or subliminal level.

Now I'm riffing here, and some of the above might be my jnterpretation. Chris Shepherd is the man for philosophy..I can't recommend it enough, like a change of chip.

[Eoin McLove]

I think reading is massively important as it has the potential to open new worlds and avenues of thought up to people.  I find my own reading has broadened over the years and I think that has been beneficial to my own growth,  among other experiences too.

Imagine tomorrow they,  whoever they are,  announced that they had discovered the meaning of life and that it was knitting. Knitting is the meaning of life and everything else is merely distraction or masturbation.  Would it be nobler, or more meaningful, to follow your own interests regardless of their inherent meaninglessness or to ditch everything,  dive into knitting with full force,  learn everything about it,  its complexities,  its technicalities,  its artistic value etc. accepting it as your new religion for the rest of your life,  while living with that emptiness it would give you, as a non-passion? I'm sure this is philosophy 101 sort of a conundrum,  but it's worth a thought.

[StoutAndAle]

I spent the last year resseading Nietzsche....

Currently I'm becoming obsessed with Carl Jung...

Victor Frankl's 'Man's search for meaning' is worth a read...

I think that you might enjoy "The Denial Of Death" by Ernest Becker, Pedrito - based on your mentions there anyway.

[Pedrito]

Some people say that our existence is to steer life towards it's "Ultimate Complexity".

4.6 odd billion years ago there was no Earth and our solar system was pretty much just a cloud of Hydrogen and Helium. Fuck all else happening in the world.

Fast forward to now and I'm sitting on a couch tapping a screen, and in a few minutes this message will be readily visible to anybody on this planet, if they choose to seek it via their own screens.

The only thing I'm certain about is that the world is getting increasingly ever more complex. It doesn't go backwards, it goes forwards. This complexity constantly mutates and I don't think that it is possible to go back to being just a cloud of hydrogen/helium.

So based on this, some say that our meaning is to aid the evolution of this complexity. Not saying these are my own views, but it's what came to mind when I saw the thread.

This is essentially what I understand is the scientific/materialistic approach to life that leads to a cold, meaningless, nihilistic end. The philosophers talk about this. We don't wake up in the morning and say to ourselves 'oh I'm here to serve an ever evolving complexity in technology and science' but literally nobody thinks that way. We don't think in terms of these grand objectives. We each have inctedibly complex and often nonsensical, paradoxical and condlicting drives. Nietsche talked about the Will to power, Jung goes internal, Goethe's Faust had huge influences on these men, Christ, Buddhism, the Greeks, we have thousands of years of incredible geniuses who dedicated themselves to answering the great questions. It's all there for us, we just have to uncover it. On a societal level even having an understanding of the likes of Max Weber's Protestant working ethic, Marx and Durkheim, will help.you look at the world in such a different way.

And even if you have no interest in any of that, if all.you believe in is fuck, work, die, at the very least you might contemplate the wonder that is your own body, your eye..imagine having to replace an eye. To reduce it all down and see no beauty in any of that...well it's a dark place that I've spent plenty of time in, but it's a total waste of time and one needs to take steps to regulate it.

[Eoin McLove]

I think philosophy should be taken with a pinch of salt, from the limited amount I've read.  It certainly seems to offer some answers,  or provide new ways (techniques?) of thinking,  but I think that in the wrong hands it's often as likely to lead to despair. I'm sure that depends both on the specific author,  or book and the ability of the reader to differentiate between metaphor and reality.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The last two and a half months I've been doing a job that is utterly pointless and meaningless,  but it's easy and I'm being paid so I'm emotionally torn on its veracity to some degree.

"Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes." Alan Watts.

"The universe has no meaning except that which we give it." Jean-Paul Sartre.

These two ideas go quite well hand in hand and the second, particularly, implies (if true) that science will never be able to reveal the meaning of life, only add new meanings to it, in the sense that all of our meanings, at bottom, are interpretations. But science is interesting in and of itself, like peeling potatoes; just need to adopt the right frame of mind.

[Pedrito]

I think philosophy should be taken with a pinch of salt, from the limited amount I've read.  It certainly seems to offer some answers,  or provide new ways (techniques?) of thinking,  but I think that in the wrong hands it's often as likely to lead to despair. I'm sure that depends both on the specific author,  or book and the ability of the reader to differentiate between metaphor and reality.

Pinch of salt in what way exactly? I'm not talking about self help, I'm talking about understanding the very foundations of how and why we think. I think it's fundamental to understanding who we are and why we're here, what moves our society, why we desire certain things, why we think the way we do. We look for quick answers to things but it takes a lot of reading and reflection and actual living to make any sense of life once the college days start to fade off and life gets serious.

[Eoin McLove]

I think it can get very abstract and become, just that,  an exercise in thinking.  Thinking is indeed a massively important part of existence and what sets us apart from the animals, no denying that,  and we need to exercise our brains to deal with reality on a basic level and to dig for meaning on a deeper level.  There are examples though where the mental exercise seems to detach from reality (it is also possible that I simply can't get my head around it) and become thinking for thinking's sake (what is chairness? - an interesting exercise but one that could start to drive you mad if you ponder too much on it as it becomes a circular,  unanswerable question).

I don't think that philosophy negates science/ psychology or vice versa.  I think both are helpful and provide complimentary roles in helping us to build a better picture of ourselves and our consciousness.  I might be veering from the point here.

Again,  though,  while these are fascinating questions in and of themselves,  are they attempts to describe meaning rather than to provide it? They are probably both, and each to varying degrees.  And again,  only to those who are interested in these areas.

Is someone who doesn't think about these things but who has other interests or passions that light up their existence (football,  making marzipan figurines to put on top of wedding cakes, ballet) in some way any poorer?