Theories of the conspiratorial kind

[Pedrito]

Would they have dropped a bomb on a country that hadn't attacked them on their own soil is really what I was saying(I was being lazy writing that initial point). I'm not so sure the US is always looking to go to war despite the narrative that is pushed. They flexed their muscle during the cold war thankfully for the rest of us. In terms of Iran, I don't see why they would ever want to get involved in a war there. It would never end and more than likely spark some sort of world war.

[mickO)))]

If Hillary had of won they would have ended up in a war with NK or Iran or maybe even both. All the giving out people do about Trump he's the only president in recent times that hasn't waged war on another country.

[Juggz]

Would they have dropped a bomb on a country that hadn't attacked them on their own soil is really what I was saying(I was being lazy writing that initial point). I'm not so sure the US is always looking to go to war despite the narrative that is pushed. They flexed their muscle during the cold war thankfully for the rest of us. In terms of Iran, I don't see why they would ever want to get involved in a war there. It would never end and more than likely spark some sort of world war.

Yes, they were going to drop it on Germany had it been ready in time. It's not just Iraq and Afghanistan, they invaded Libya too, none of whom were directly involved with 9/11. People forget we were all friends with Ghadaffi in the mid-2000s, that snake Blair even visited him, before it was decided he was a bad guy again. There is the narrative, of course, that they tend to stick their beak into oil generating countries. Didn't Maduro say he caught a US spy near a refinery last week? Do we believe him?

A lot of the US economic strength is based on weapon sales, both domestic and international. They have a vested interest in perpetual conflict or, alternatively, unrest. The amount of public money they spend militarily is fucking staggering.

[Cailleach]

Humans seem to find a need to elaborate things to almost mystical levels constantly. Be it the traditional martial arts, religion, certain styles of metal etc etc. Deep, impenetrable ideas and concepts that only the few with the knowledge can truly understand. I went down that Donmeh rabbit hole about 6 months ago. The depths and intricacies of the conspiracy are so neatly and beautifully mapped out. But humans are not neat and they also don't know when to shut their mouths. It's nonsense pure and simple.

I agree to an extent regarding why some people ascribe events to conspiracies,  However there are also people who don't want to believe that those they identify with in terms of values and political ideology are capable of carring out such things. Operation Northwood and various other clandestine plots show they  clearly are.
Regarding the incompetence narrative,  Mossad back in the 60s when asked what had they learned from a foiled false  flag op in Egypt, said: "to ensure we don't get caught next time"  With this in mind, while these security services do eff up, they are more than capable of executing plots successfully, none more so than the Israelis.
If the attacks on September 2001 were allowed to happen, this might explain why it was only Saudi passports that were found. However a flaw in the it was allowed to happen angle is how could those who had knowledge of it ensure that other government agencies did not get whiff of it and expose it.

So all in all I do lean towards it not being an inside job

[Cailleach]

But I do agree that, overall, if the US decides it wants to draw blood somewhere, it usually finds a justification one way or the other. I am genuinely surprised they didn't go into Iran when Bolton was making overtures last year.

If Hillary was in power they likely would have. Donald does not seem to be pro- war. He ignored Bolton, who has never seen war he did not like. He is one of the few US presidents that has not started a war. I give him credit for that.

[Pedrito]

Re: Juggz. Really? It certainly didn't pre 9/11 anyway. Not in the way an Austrian or Ukranian might feel about Russia for example. I think the response was so extreme because they felt the opposite way, that they would never be attacked, or that it was so unlikely. There was massive incredulity at the time and it pushed the need to respond with an iron fist. They dropped the bomb on the Japanese who had attacked them on their own soil, the response had to be similar.

Nobody remembers when communists (real ones, not the plastic ones ye shriek about now 😉)  were the problem?

Just coming back on that little dig..sneaky. It's funny, I'm probably as liberal as it comes but when one decides not to buy into every narrative going out there it's interesting the accusations thrown at them not just by you Juggz but in a wider sense. But I'm a big boy, I can take it.

BUT, just in case it wasn't already clear enough, it's not me who is saying that X, Y and Z come from a particular mould. They're saying it themselves and it's hardly new news. Straight from the horses mouth:

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

Now, do I actually believe they want Communism? Not on your nelly. One look at that well fed beefcake in the article and you can see she'd fall.to pieces without her regular skinny lattes and trips to Maccie D's. But certainly the tactics they are using and the ideology is deeply rooted:

It also expresses its appreciation for the work of the US Communist Party, "especially Black communists," as well as its support for "the great work of the Black Panther Party, the American Indian Movement, Young Lords, Brown Berets, and the great revolutionary rainbow experiments of the 1970s,"

So, as far as I'm concerned, fascism is equally as repugnant as Communism or Marxism or Trotskyism. They can all go away and fuck and leave us to our albeit corrupt and out of date and certainly flawed democracy.

[Pedrito]

This is a decent breakdown of what is happening with BLM vs 'Black Lives Matter'. Essentially 2 completely different conversations are taking place with a lot of people simply not understanding a deeper context to the thing. Whatever, I'm all BLM, Covided out right now couldn't care less tbh.

https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The history of the CPUSA is pretty fascinating stuff, worth a look into. On the ground, and despite their many, many faults, they were definitely doing more for the black community than anyone else at a certain important time in history, so the fact that there are still sympathies and more today is not surprising at all. There are a couple of good documentaries which look at its history from the grassroots level up, before, during, and after the mass disillusionment with Stalin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Y4tEFnI38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmGVnHxtf0

The notion that "Marxism" is synonymous with "Anti-Americanism" is a nonsense conflation, by the by. But then the nature of the fight against communists in the USA, as in US citizens who were members of the CPUSA, reveals that if we judge their opponents by their actions and words, then if "Communism" is "Anti-Americanism" then whatever "pro-Americanism" is, it's certainly not democracy.

[Pedrito]

In fairness it was the 40's and 50's and when we look at the track record of the Communist countries before and after, it could easily be argued that it required a less than democratic approach. Stalin bettwen 6 and 20 million murdered. Mao: the great leap forward: 45 million. Then you other little squabbles like Cambodia. I went there a decade ago. There was one architect and no engineer left after they finished murdering half of their population. The killing fields where they used to smash the babies heads instead of using bullets left quite the impression. They picked them up by the legs and swung them..and the taxi driver was one of them. They're all still alive the lads that did it. Horrible.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

As I said, and is generally accepted fact, there was an enormous, almost generalized abandonment of the CPUSA once Stalin's true nature came to light. Meaning? Meaning that the ideals of communism to which members of the CPUSA had signed up were seen as incommensurable with his actions. Same applies to Mao, same applies to Cambodia. I mean, I'm as much a critic of economic liberalism as you seem to be of communism, but I don't argue against it by harping on about Pinochet every time the subject comes up.

[Juggz]

Any sentence which begins with...

If Hillary had of won they would have

usually has some kind of fantasy pulled from the pages of the Guns 'n' Ammo "Reader's Letters" section...

ended up in a war with NK or Iran or maybe even both. All the giving out people do about Trump he's the only president in recent times that hasn't waged war on another country.

And there it is 

I don't think anyone is going to war with NK without China's approval. No sane US president will think that China will welcome US troops waging war on their border, so I would count that as pure fantasy. Iran, it's plausible, there's a definite move to get them before they get the bomb, but I don't see why it would be Hillary and not Donald. If you have any documentation supporting that it would be interesting to read.

As for the US not waging war under Trump, this might be an eye-opener. Although, it's called "combatting terrorism" here, not waging war 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/map-shows-places-world-where-us-military-operates-180970997/

This map is the most comprehensive depiction in civilian circles of U.S. military and government antiterrorist actions overseas in the past two years.

Published in 2019, so this shows where they have been active since 2017.

Back to the point, since the end of WWII the US has always had an enemy they keep in public consciousness. Nothing has changed.

[mickO)))]

It took you 15 hours to come up with that 

[Juggz]

Yes, I stayed up all night.

[Pedrito]

As I said, and is generally accepted fact, there was an enormous, almost generalized abandonment of the CPUSA once Stalin's true nature came to light. Meaning? Meaning that the ideals of communism to which members of the CPUSA had signed up were seen as incommensurable with his actions. Same applies to Mao, same applies to Cambodia. I mean, I'm as much a critic of economic liberalism as you seem to be of communism, but I don't argue against it by harping on about Pinochet every time the subject comes up.

Eeehhh yes you do. I'd be equally wary of economic liberalism myself. Of course there were very meaningful ideas that came out of Communism but the end results cannot be argued with. You read the likes of Steinbeck and you'd need to be deaf dumb and blind not to realise that classism and a lack of protection for workers, rights etc etc were not necessary. There is a whole dark side to it all that seems obsessed with manipulation and control however that I would be extremely wary of,that's all. I'm saying nothing new, I just find it interesting how the tactics of old have been reborn again in the modern age. A bit like the Jesuits 'Give me the child and I'll show you the man' I'm wary of any of these all encompassing approaches, be they neo-liberalism, fascism, communism, whatever, and certainly anyone who has had spent more than half an hour in the company of former Blackrock college pupils would agree 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Listen, the 1917 October Revolution was some of the greatest horseplay of all time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7navJmVRWk