The Donald vs Big Tech

[astfgyl]

I don't blame the minorities for feeling disenfranchised whatsoever. And I made a point about looters maybe having nothing and looting out of necessity but I was mostly playing devil's advocate with myself in saying that.

On a slightly different note, I was thinking earlier of Martin Luther King's dream and it certainly didn't involve a race war, which there seems a danger of this all turning into. There is ingrained racism on all sides there and the more that the black lives matter crowd become associated with looting and the authorities become associated with shooting, the deeper that divide becomes and the original protest becomes something else entirely. America is indeed very broken and there is a real danger that all of this will only serve to make it a lot more broken rather than righting any of the wrongs.

[Juggz]

There has never not been a race war in the US. Just because there aren’t tanks on the streets doesn’t mean the machinations of the white US rulers haven’t been active against minorities since the Declaration of Independence. Bear that in mind in the context of what you have seen over the last few days.

[Pedrito]

This wanton thuggery is exactly the wrong way to go about drumming up sympathy.

That is one of the absurdest implicit suggestions I've read in a long time. An individual looting obviously isn't thinking about drumming up sympathy. An individual looting is a symptom of a chronic disease. In much the same way that (right-wingers and conservatives beware, I'm throwing out a big one) the looting of entire continents was a symptom of a chronic disease. "We're very sorry we enslaved all of your ancestors after stealing them from their homes and used them to make ourselves very rich. We're very sorry we told you you were subhuman and couldn't use the same facilities as us even after we stopped enslaving you. We're sorry for housing you in areas with no prospects, terrible facilities, and the worst education in the country. But now that we've said sorry for all that, be warned that you better not do anything bad against us, or we will fucking kill you, you subhuman scumbag thugs." 

Edit: Sorry, just to be clear, I'm voicing things from the point of view of an underprivileged black person there. That's what America is to them. Stealing a TV, really, why the fuck should they see that as a big deal if they have that historically justified mentality??

Seems quite a jump to say be able to summarize how every black person in the US feels in that way. There are lots of black Americans who would be horrified to be cast in that light.

There are 2 issues here and as usual they're getting mixed up.

1. Outrage against sickening racism

2. Scumbag cunts looting cities, attacking small women of all colours and creeds in small cornerstore shops in Brooklyn, dragging people by the hair through streets, robbing, arson, wanton destruction, beatings, shootings, stabbings.

The majority of decent minded people agree with number 1 and want change and are trying to listen and be open to dialogue, be educated.

Anyone of a sane right mind is against number 2. There is no defence to it.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Making a big deal out of saying that looters are thugs is about as constructive to any kind of resolution of broken America as looting itself. Does that make more sense?

[Emphyrio]

I dunno, Aul Shep has clearly read so many books on the life of an underprivileged black man that he can now speak for them.

[Emphyrio]

Making a big deal out of saying that looters are thugs is about as constructive to any kind of resolution of broken America as looting itself. Does that make more sense?

You haven't come anywhere near coming up with a solution either.

[blessed1]

I dunno, Aul Shep has clearly read so many books on the life of an underprivileged black man that he can now speak for them.

😄

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Making a big deal out of saying that looters are thugs is about as constructive to any kind of resolution of broken America as looting itself. Does that make more sense?

You haven't come anywhere near coming up with a solution either.

You don't need to have a solution to know what doesn't go into it 

Your book comment is risible coming from a teacher.

[blessed1]

This is like a comment thread on Facebook.

[astfgyl]

There has never not been a race war in the US. Just because there aren't tanks on the streets doesn't mean the machinations of the white US rulers haven't been active against minorities since the Declaration of Independence. Bear that in mind in the context of what you have seen over the last few days.

Fair point. A country built on racial slavery is always going to have a problem there. I agree that there has to be a lot of pent up stuff coming out now and I know it isn't as simple as saying that the looting has no cause or is entirely senseless, but I still think they would achieve a better result with peaceful protest. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind etc.

Pedrito makes a good fist of explaining it up there and I mostly feel as he does about it.

[Emphyrio]

Making a big deal out of saying that looters are thugs is about as constructive to any kind of resolution of broken America as looting itself. Does that make more sense?

You haven't come anywhere near coming up with a solution either.

You don't need to have a solution to know what doesn't go into it 

Your book comment is risible coming from a teacher.

I'll get over it.

"You don't need to have a solution to know what doesn't go into it  "

That's a most vague say-nothing statement.

[Pedrito]

There has never not been a race war in the US. Just because there aren't tanks on the streets doesn't mean the machinations of the white US rulers haven't been active against minorities since the Declaration of Independence. Bear that in mind in the context of what you have seen over the last few days.

Is that really true? Is it 100% true? Or is it partially true? I would say the latter.  Of course there's racism. Of course there's inequality and awful, awful stuff happening. There are too many black men in prison, major issues. At the same time there have been major advances since the time of the Declaration of Indepenence. If you go back far in any country's history you'll find horrific inequality, subjugation etc. Irish Catholics in 1776 had no rights, most of them half starved with no way to change their lot. Things have changed dramatically in America but maybe not dramatically enough.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

There are 2 issues here and as usual they're getting mixed up.

1. Outrage against sickening racism

2. Scumbag cunts looting cities, attacking small women of all colours and creeds in small cornerstore shops in Brooklyn, dragging people by the hair through streets, robbing, arson, wanton destruction, beatings, shootings, stabbings.

Speaking of mixing things up, conflating looting with dragging people by the hair through the streets and stabbings is not really a good way to clarify things. It's about as useful as the left insisting on conflating the Trump regime with the third Reich.

The point is to try and stay focused on the core issues and to dialogue about those. To set aside secondary or peripheral issues, and find compromises on what really matters. To set aside old and current grievances, and - as you said - get them dialoguing about what those core issues are, not just the essential material issues but also the ingrained psychological issues leading to a reconciliation of what "America" supposedly stands for (i.e. all its mottos, the whole stars and stripes schpiel, etc.) and why the black community needed to be imported and exploited to create that. Those last points are what I recall from what I've heard from spokespeople of the black community, having never read a book on the subject 

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Having naïvely not expected such a snide response to trying to reformulate what I had heard (even though doing so is the basis of human society, but whatever), here is a sample of the black perspective. That doesn't mean it's "right", but it's the perspective which, perhaps correctly, some of you decided I'm not authorized to relate here in my own words:

"I saw so many people online saying, 'These riots are disgusting, this is not how a society should be run, you do not loot and you do not burn, this is not how our society is built,'" Noah said. "But what is society? When you boil it down, society is a contract we sign as human beings amongst each other. 'Amongst this group of us, we agree in common rules, common ideals, and common practices that are going to define us as a group.' But if you think of being a black person in America who is living in Minneapolis, or any place where you're not having a good time, ask yourself this question when you watch those people: What vested interest do they have in maintaining the contract? There are people who are destitute when the virus hit and are already broke. Black American people watch time and time again how the contract they have signed with society is not being honored by the society. When you watch Ahmaud Arbery being shot and you heard those men were released were it not for the video and the outrage, what part of the contract is that? When you see George Floyd on the ground losing his life in a way that no person should ever have to lose their life at the hands of someone who is supposed to enforce the law, what part of the contract is that? A lot of people say, 'Well, what good does this do?' Yeah, but what good doesn't it do? How does it help you to not loot Target? Because the only reason you didn't loot Target before was because you were upholding society's contract. There is no contract if the law and people in power don't uphold their end of it."

"That unease that you felt watching that Target being looted, try to imagine how it must feel for black Americans when they watch themselves being looted every single day," he added. "Because that's fundamentally what's happening in America. Police in America are looting black bodies. And I know someone might think that's an extreme phrase, but it's not because here's the thing: I think a lot of people don't realize that George Floyd dying is part of the reason the story became so big. How many George Floyds are there that don't die? It's only the gruesome deaths that stick out. Imagine to yourself, if you grew up in a community where every day someone had their knee on your neck ... you tell me what that does to you as a society when you know that this is happening because of the color of your skin."

"...most of my fellow citizens, God bless them, that are in the streets are there peaceful, who are there marching. And when it does spill over into violence, looting is wrong. But legalized looting is wrong too. Murder is wrong. Legalized murder is wrong too. I look at the wickedness at high places first and then keep track of the least of these."

[Emphyrio]

"...most of my fellow citizens, God bless them, that are in the streets are there peaceful, who are there marching. And when it does spill over into violence, looting is wrong. But legalized looting is wrong too. Murder is wrong. Legalized murder is wrong too. I look at the wickedness at high places first and then keep track of the least of these."

Not sure I implied anywhere anything that might be in disagreement with that.

"This wanton thuggery is exactly the wrong way to go about drumming up sympathy."

"That is one of the absurdest implicit suggestions I've read in a long time."