The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

If you have primitive leaving cert economics, then you'll understand that what I'm saying, what the facts of Ireland's current employment market say, is that demand for workers is higher than supply, not the other way around, and not only in domains requiring high levels of qualification. So, again, are there areas of employment where immigrants are the cause of Irish people being unemployed? Or, if you prefer, the cause of Irish people being underpaid? Again, bearing in mind that unemployment is as low now as it was during the Celtic tiger. Like, is what you're saying true, an actual reality on the ground with elements you can point to? Or is it just something you've heard?

What your Indian friends may or may not think of the Irish welfare system is absolutely irrelevant.

[hellfire]

I didn't say anything in my last post about unemployment. I used to work in zero qualification professions like bartending and call centres until I was 29. It is only in the last five years that I have an income that supports a decent standard of living. Have a look on any job site for those types of professions and you'll find that most of the jobs hover within a few Euros of minimum wage. If there are more jobs than people the wages go up as companies are in competition for fewer staff.

I don't know why I bother answering you half the time. It's less than a week since you proclaimed Cuba to be a desirable place to live. You rabbit around in circles spouting none but the finest nonsense. Absolutely the opinions of my Indian friends were related to the topic. You contended that a tighter immigration policy would put off people with high qualifications from working in Ireland.

[Ollkiller]

Whose we? You haven't paid tax here in years. Labour like everything else is a commodity. Even with my primitive leaving cert economics I can deduce that when you increase the supply of something the price goes down. Highly qualified workers don't give a shit about the asylum process, social housing or anything to do with minimum wage. I work with four Indian lads who are forever in awe of the complete stupidity of providing welfare and social supports to people from other countries. The housing crisis affects them too and they have almost exactly the same opinions on Irish immigration policies as I do.

Immigration in the short term suppresses wages but leads to an overall increase in wages over the long term. I only know this because of a project inhad tondo for for college based on the effects of immigration on wages. I can get the links to back it up later.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Grand so hellfire. You didn't answer any of my questions and misinterpreted this:

The antics and discourse of #IrelandIsFull, etc., doesn't exactly make Ireland an attractive place for highly qualified foreign workers

Simple translation: Rowdy xenophobic protests outside refugee centres is not what one encourages if what one wants, if what one needs is to attract highly qualified, highly educated foreigners to come work in a country.

I still have no idea what you're talking about regarding wages, as apart from repeating a mantra about supply and demand, you've shown nothing to indicate that immigrants are in fact either taking jobs from Irish people or driving Irish people's wages down.

Here's the best vaguely Irish angle I could find on the subject. And as an unexpected bonus, it even refers to the 1980 influx of Cuban migrants into Miami, which seems to have had minimal impact on local wages:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2022/12/18/have-globalisation-and-immigration-depressed-wages-or-made-us-richer/

Voice is given in that article to both sides of the theory, so if your belief that immigrants are in fact driving down unskilled wages for Irish people is based on something more concrete than debated theory, great, please share it, I have a genuine interest. If it's not, you should rationally be relaxing your grip on that belief.

[hellfire]

Grand so hellfire. You didn't answer any of my questions and misinterpreted this:

The antics and discourse of #IrelandIsFull, etc., doesn't exactly make Ireland an attractive place for highly qualified foreign workers

Simple translation: Rowdy xenophobic protests outside refugee centres is not what one encourages if what one wants, if what one needs is to attract highly qualified, highly educated foreigners to come work in a country.

I still have no idea what you're talking about regarding wages, as apart from repeating a mantra about supply and demand, you've shown nothing to indicate that immigrants are in fact either taking jobs from Irish people or driving Irish people's wages down.

Here's the best vaguely Irish angle I could find on the subject. And as an unexpected bonus, it even refers to the 1980 influx of Cuban migrants into Miami, which seems to have had minimal impact on local wages:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2022/12/18/have-globalisation-and-immigration-depressed-wages-or-made-us-richer/

Voice is given in that article to both sides of the theory, so if your belief that immigrants are in fact driving down unskilled wages for Irish people is based on something more concrete than debated theory, great, please share it, I have a genuine interest. If it's not, you should rationally be relaxing your grip on that belief.

I answered it twice. Top tier professionals couldn't give a toss what you do outside asylum centres or any other state aid facilities. They have no intention of availing of them. Minimum wage, social welfare or anything else state funded is of little interest to them. Tax rates, cost and availability of accomdation are quite relevant.

Oilkiller thanks, I take you at your word. Did any of your studies look at what a sustained influx of immigration does to low income wages? You're pretty much at the initial stages permanently. That is the EU plan with no end date or end goal. I know the US opens the door wider at times when it's necessary and closes it tighter when needed. As do all non EU countries with any kind of sensible approach.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I answered it twice.

That's an answer to a question I didn't ask.

Your claim:

Bringing in tons of unskilled labour punishes those in lower income professions.

My questions:

are there areas of employment where immigrants are the cause of Irish people being unemployed? Or, if you prefer, the cause of Irish people being underpaid? Again, bearing in mind that unemployment is as low now as it was during the Celtic tiger. Like, is what you're saying true, an actual reality on the ground with elements you can point to? Or is it just something you've heard?

An answer to this, but a factual one, not an answer that is just repeating a line of theory.

[hellfire]

Grand so hellfire. You didn't answer any of my questions and misinterpreted this:

The antics and discourse of #IrelandIsFull, etc., doesn't exactly make Ireland an attractive place for highly qualified foreign workers

Simple translation: Rowdy xenophobic protests outside refugee centres is not what one encourages if what one wants, if what one needs is to attract highly qualified, highly educated foreigners to come and work in a country.

Answered with:

Top tier professionals couldn't give a toss what you do outside asylum centres or any other state aid facilities. They have no intention of availing of them. Minimum wage, social welfare or anything else state funded is of little interest to them. Tax rates, cost and availability of accomdation are quite relevant.

are there areas of employment where immigrants are the cause of Irish people being unemployed? Or, if you prefer, the cause of Irish people being underpaid? Again, bearing in mind that unemployment is as low now as it was during the Celtic tiger. Like, is what you're saying true, an actual reality on the ground with elements you can point to? Or is it just something you've heard?

An answer to this, but a factual one, not an answer that is just repeating a line of theory.

Answered with:

4966 Today at 12:41:12 PM

I didn't say anything in my last post about unemployment. I used to work in zero qualification professions like bartending and call centres until I was 29. It is only in the last five years that I have an income that supports a decent standard of living. Have a look on any job site for those types of professions and you'll find that most of the jobs hover within a few Euros of minimum wage. If there are more jobs than people the wages go up as companies are in competition for fewer staff.

Also this theory you're referring to is not some fringe opinion. It is widely accepted and tested. In economics they refer to it as The Law of Supply and Demand.

I know we've reached the stage of the conversation where your deliberately sidewinding and pretending to misunderstand everything I say. I'll leave it there. The last thing the site needs is another ten pages of your hysterical horseshit.

[Paul mcgrath]

I would put it out there that it's the actually the lads on the right of this discussion spouting hysterical horseshit, making up random percentages, not backing up claims, refering to people they disagree with as toads, leeches, vermin.

The left hand side has sources and photos and videos backing claims up and havnt been insulting the other side with name calling.

It's all very depressing.
Fair play to black Shepard carnage. I don't know where you get the energy.

[hellfire]

Ah yes, the double account with five posts all in this thread  I'm enormously concerned by what you think.

[Paul mcgrath]

Concerned enough to reply.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Okay, but the "law" of supply and demand is only useful where it reflects the empirical reality. Most famous case where this doesn't happen? Luxury goods. It's not a law there at all, which means it's not a universal law. And in the job/labour market also, you have to look at what's happening on the ground, you can't just throw a theory out as a prediction and presume it's accurate. That Irish Times article above goes into some of this. In either case, this "Bringing in tons of unskilled labour punishes those in lower income professions" is not a law. This is typical propaganda aimed at getting the working classes on board against immigrants instead of against employers, landlords, and governments.

[hellfire]

Sorry to spoil that chubby you get from aggravating others on the internet but I'm out.

[Caomhaoin]

I would put it out there that it's the actually the lads on the right of this discussion spouting hysterical horseshit, making up random percentages, not backing up claims, refering to people they disagree with as toads, leeches, vermin.

The left hand side has sources and photos and videos backing claims up and havnt been insulting the other side with name calling.

It's all very depressing.
Fair play to black Shepard carnage. I don't know where you get the energy.

Lol

[91/30]

"The third world constantly sends her own surplus to the Irish labor market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the Irish working class"

Xenophobic fascism etc etc? In fact that's a direct quote from Karl Marx, all I've done is exchange third world and English for Irish.

[Ollkiller]

Oilkiller thanks, I take you at your word. Did any of your studies look at what a sustained influx of immigration does to low income wages? You're pretty much at the initial stages permanently. That is the EU plan with no end date or end goal. I know the US opens the door wider at times when it's necessary and closes it tighter when needed. As do all non EU countries with any kind of sensible approach.

The Cuban influx to Miami (as chris linked to) was part of it. And America in general and parts of europe over the years. If the majority of immigrants are low skilled then in the short term it can suppress wages. But over time it leads to an increase in wages due to larger workforce, more productivity etc.

I'll try to find the old college paper I did on it. Was a while ago now. I just Googled "impact of immigration on wages" and theres tons of studies done. But I'll try to find my paper as there was a good explanation that eludes me at present.

Irelands issue to me isnt immigration. Its housing. We have open immigration with the EU but we dont with elsewhere. Our current situation is 2 pronged. Abysmal government policy in relation to housing the last 30 years (we used to build houses in the 70's and 80's). And the Ukrainian situation. An influx over 70k just broke our system. If the successive governments of the last 30 years had implemented a sensible, controlled system (with private developers as well) with good regulation we wouldn't be having these bullshit arguments about us and them. There should be enough houses for all. That's why I cant stand protests outside asylum centres. The most misguided bullshit ever. Your local TD for FG or FF is not that far away. That's who you should be protesting to imo.