The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Out of curiosity, the 38 year old Irish man who stabbed Nkencho's 15 year old friend in the heart ten years ago, what kind of image of Nigerians do you think he had floating about in his head? One that's not potentially dangerous or is potentially dangerous to perpetuate?

[Bigmac]

Hadn't heard of this until now. Reading this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/no-one-will-ever-be-jailed-for-killing-of-schoolboy-1.2622

He was with some of them on Mount Eustace Crescent on Good Friday when words were exchanged between the group – five male black teenagers and five white girls – and brothers Michael and Paul Barry.

When one of the girls asked Paul Barry (38) for a cigarette and he refused, words were exchanged and a fight broke out. The Barry brothers came out of the exchange second best.

When the teenagers ran away, the brothers went after them in a 4X4, in the apparent belief one of the group had robbed Michael Barry's mobile phone.

When the Barrys caught up with the teenagers, another row broke out during which Paul Barry produced a knife and stabbed Toyosi in the heart.

It seems like the group assaulted the brothers over a cigarette, then the brothers pursued them under the pretense of a stolen phone. Obviously, no reason to stab anyone, but I fail to see where Nigerian comes into it.

This is all I've read though so perhaps there's more to it.

[Pedrito]

The idea that a section of society might pose a risk or might display signs of not wanting to 'conform/adapt/get along'  is the one thing that people might worry about and certainly if we look at our nearest neighbours, or plenty parts of mainland Europe, there is definite friction between 'groups' for whatever reason. We shouldn't want that and we should be very very vigilant and not being told to shut up by people who don't want to hurt peoples' 'feelings'. Better some hurt feelings than something far more serious.

None of the discussion here has been about being told to "shut up by people who don't want to hurt people's feelings". It's been about not being led to spread misinformation by people who do want to hurt people's feelings, their lives, their opportunities, etc., etc. "Send them back to where they came from!"

It's now gotten to the point where, rather than stopping for a moment and reflectively examining why one's own brain would initially have such an emotional explosion at an event not directly affecting any of us, and why it would try to draw reasonable conclusions from within that emotional explosion (I'd invite you to review your first judge, jury, and executioner style comment in this thread about this event), rather than doing that, we practically end up with denials of the very idea that symbols have a powerful impact over thought, the more iconic the symbols the better, and that therefore the manipulation of symbols (i.e. propaganda) can be and is used to voluntarily direct group-think. In other words, rather than accept that each and every one of us is susceptible to the power of symbol manipulation, let's just claim it doesn't exist. It's like epistemic sour grapes.

No that's your discussion. I still stand by my original verdict. You brandish a knife in public, you need taking down. The interpretation of events and the surrounding connotations are completely separate, somewhat 'theoretical' and open to debate.

[Pedrito]

Hadn't heard of this until now. Reading this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/no-one-will-ever-be-jailed-for-killing-of-schoolboy-1.2622

He was with some of them on Mount Eustace Crescent on Good Friday when words were exchanged between the group – five male black teenagers and five white girls – and brothers Michael and Paul Barry.

When one of the girls asked Paul Barry (38) for a cigarette and he refused, words were exchanged and a fight broke out. The Barry brothers came out of the exchange second best.

When the teenagers ran away, the brothers went after them in a 4X4, in the apparent belief one of the group had robbed Michael Barry's mobile phone.

When the Barrys caught up with the teenagers, another row broke out during which Paul Barry produced a knife and stabbed Toyosi in the heart.

It seems like the group assaulted the brothers over a cigarette, then the brothers pursued them under the pretense of a stolen phone. Obviously, no reason to stab anyone, but I fail to see where Nigerian comes into it.

This is all I've read though so perhaps there's more to it.

Well one group was Irish and white and the other Nigerian so it's obviously racism...that's confirmation bias if ever I saw it.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

This was your original verdict:

He slashed the person in the Spar. Attackd someone else. 90 minutes standoff with the guards asking him to drop his weapon and they shot him when he lunged at a Ban Garda. Beat his missus in the face with a hammer and attacked an elderly woman in the street all in the last few weeks. They couldn't shoot the cunt enough times.

Hook, line, and sinker for the people who wanted those rumours to get around.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Hadn't heard of this until now. Reading this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/no-one-will-ever-be-jailed-for-killing-of-schoolboy-1.2622

He was with some of them on Mount Eustace Crescent on Good Friday when words were exchanged between the group – five male black teenagers and five white girls – and brothers Michael and Paul Barry.

When one of the girls asked Paul Barry (38) for a cigarette and he refused, words were exchanged and a fight broke out. The Barry brothers came out of the exchange second best.

When the teenagers ran away, the brothers went after them in a 4X4, in the apparent belief one of the group had robbed Michael Barry's mobile phone.

When the Barrys caught up with the teenagers, another row broke out during which Paul Barry produced a knife and stabbed Toyosi in the heart.

It seems like the group assaulted the brothers over a cigarette, then the brothers pursued them under the pretense of a stolen phone. Obviously, no reason to stab anyone, but I fail to see where Nigerian comes into it.

This is all I've read though so perhaps there's more to it.

Well one group was Irish and white and the other Nigerian so it's obviously racism...that's confirmation bias if ever I saw it.

Bigmac must have found the one article that didn't mention racist undertones to the words exchanged and ensuing scuffle. It's certainly not possible to conclude, as Bigmac has, that "the group assaulted the brothers over a cigarette" when the article you've just read actually says, "When one of the girls asked Paul Barry (38) for a cigarette and he refused, words were exchanged and a fight broke out.The Barry brothers came out of the exchange second best."

"Racist undertones":
https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1212/358034-man-acquitted-of-murder-of-toyosi-shittabey/

"Racial undertones":
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-acquitted-of-murdering-nigerian-teen-toyosi-shittabey-28946808.html

"Witnesses have told the trial they heard racist shouts and screaming outside their homes."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30576939.html

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

In any case, it's about time someone brought up the connection between the two events; it's certainly more relevant to the case than, y'know, things that didn't happen at all. There was certainly zero overlap in the sources sharing the made up stuff and the sources talking about Nkencho's mental issues in the wake of the above murder, so I'm sure Bigmac wasn't the only one in the dark until today.

[Trev]

Never would have made any connection to a machete and it being a Nigerian stereotype until it was brought up.

Report I read said a machete, that's certainly what it looked like to me in the video doing the rounds, but I guess replace that word with "big kitchen knife" and I stand by my point. Although I've kinda lost track of where this discussion is now...

[Bigmac]

So the group of Nigerian teenagers were shouting racial slurs at the brothers? Like the slurs shouted at the folks in Spar on video recently?

I know this isn't what you're getting at, but the source of the "racist undertones" isn't explicitly stated in any of those articles (I think).  Even the Wikipedia article leaves it ambiguous:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Toyosi_Shittabey

So to assume it came from whites against blacks, without it being explicitly stated, seems to be the bias Pedrito mentioned earlier.

There could be actual evidence though, so I'm happy to stand corrected if so. I just don't see it in the links you presented.

[John Kimble]

Out of curiosity, the 38 year old Irish man who stabbed Nkencho's 15 year old friend in the heart ten years ago...

Sorry, maybe you posted a link that I missed but where are you getting this from?

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

to assume it came from whites against blacks, without it being explicitly stated, seems to be the bias Predrito mentioned earlier.

Sure, it's not impossible, but it does seem less likely that the African teenagers hanging out with the white Irish people started shouting racist slurs at two other white Irish people than the other way around, no?


There's a few links just above, Kimble. Or do you mean specifically something stating that they were friends? They played football together, just google the two names and you'll find a few results.

[Bigmac]

to assume it came from whites against blacks, without it being explicitly stated, seems to be the bias Predrito mentioned earlier.

Sure, it's not impossible, but it does seem less likely that the African teenagers hanging out with the white Irish people started shouting racist slurs at two other white Irish people than the other way around, no?

Not beyond the realms of possibility for sure, but I'm dubious about why any article can't simply state without ambiguity, that the racial slurs came from the brothers.

A rather simple detail that is tantamount to understanding the dynamics of what went on.

So to me, it seems very suspect not to do this.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/racist-row-in-lead-up-to-murder-of-toyosi-15-court-hears-28943265.html

Counsel said one of the girls asked Michael and Paul for a light for a cigarette which resulted in a verbal row with racist undertones including the words 'Niggers' being used and Bobby Kuti took offence and threw a punch at the Barry brothers.

[Bigmac]

There we go.

You'd wonder why the rest didn't just say that.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

There we go.

You'd wonder why the rest didn't just say that.

Reading around kinda quickly, it seems that back then also there was concern over the potential for inflaming racial tension if too much attention were given to that aspect.