The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Do you ever think maybe you're exhibiting the same traits yourself?

Of course. But, as it happens, I'm not on here defending rumours spread by BLM folk. I'm being argumentative with people defending rumours spread by the opposite of BLM folk. That's just what's happening here on the forum. If Ducky were around, I'd have as many arguments against him if he were waving a "it was obviously a question of race!" flag. It used to happen in the Trump thread quite regularly. But we've no one like that anymore, which means that all of the positions presented here that are worthy of contesting happen to be stacked up on only one side of the debate. That's the deck as dealt here.

[Pedrito]

I'm really not saying anything there, beyond filling in details from the official sources as they come.

Obviously a kitchen knife can be as dangerous as a machete. But just conjure up these two images side by side: "Nigerian with kitchen knife", "Nigerian with machete". Which is closer to being a racial stereotype??

Nigerian with a knife is enough to get people worried and there is reason to be worried. Again, if we want to live in a new, 'multicultured' Ireland, then surely we should be concerned about why it hasn't worked in different instances in neighbouring countries. And the shutting down of a conversation or linking it all to racism has already shown been proven as being the absolute worst way to deal with any of these issues.

[Yung Led Zeppelin]

My take that no one asked for - I'm strongly opposed to the police shooting anyone, anywhere, should be an absolute last resort (may have been the case here) or in situations where there's an active terrorist attack in progress etc. I'd be opposed to the death penalty and  generally opposed to police being judge, jury and in cases like this, executioner. There's a very good reason those are all kept as separate entities.

There's been a LOT of jumping the gun (wehay) on this, and a lot of false information pushed out. Fact of the matter is, the lad won't get a trial (or the rest of his life), the Gardaí who shot him will.  We should be trying to keep this kind of thing as rare as possible because it's an absolute mess and a terrible outcome. The fact that it currently rarely happens should not be a reason to brush over it and just assume it's all above board. Hopefully the investigation will be thorough and fair.

[Kurt Cocaine]

I didn't see any reports whatsoever stating he had a machete. Two lads here did mention it though (machete) and bruddah Emmanuel with his butter knife quip. You're making this out to be a much bigger issue than needs be.
Things always get exaggerated in the immediate aftermath of any accident or crisis. Always have always will.
Couple of lads crash into a ditch outside town.
"There was ten of them in the car and they were doing 180mph in reverse when it happened."

Hence the saying; "When a mouse escapes from the zoo. It's an elephant by the time it arrives to your house!"

You're the one drawing this all out and you're the one making it a huge race issue when there isn't one.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

the shutting down of a conversation or linking it all to racism has already shown been proven as being the absolute worst way to deal with any of these issues.

I agree. I haven't said anything to disagree with that. The BLM folk obviously made it about race. But the #IrelandBelongsToTheIrish crowd just as obviously made it about race by depicting Nkencho has the untamable savage African machete wielding animal. Certain things that are too close to stereotypes should be flags that get you thinking, "Hmm, sounds just a bit too perfect to be true...could be bullshit...I'll wait and see before spreading this particular element."

It's not like this is the last politically exploitable thing that's going to happen in our lifetimes, so it is actually worth discussing in a general sense, beyond the particularities of any specific case.

[Caomhaoin]

I think you are reaching with the 'untameable African savage' sentiment. I'll agree that people may associate black Africans with machetes, principally because of the Rwandan genocide in the mid nineties, but the rest is a very 19th century, Rudyard Kipling-esque form of expression which does not exist in our era.

[Bigmac]

But the #IrelandBelongsToTheIrish crowd just as obviously made it about race by depicting Nkencho has the untamable savage African machete wielding animal.

Are they just parroting Pearse with that phrase? His address here states that:

https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E900007-006/text001.html

We believe, as every Irish boy whose heart has not been corrupted by foreign influence must believe, that our country ought to be free. We do not see why Ireland should allow England to govern her, either through Englishmen, as at present, or through Irishmen under an appearance of self-government. We believe that England has no business in this country at all—that Ireland, from the centre to the zenith, belongs to the Irish. Our forefathers believed this and fought for it: Hugh O'Donnell and Hugh O'Neill and Rory O'More and Owen Roe O'Neill: Tone and Emmet and Davis and Mitchel. What was true in their time is still true. Nothing that has happened or that can ever happen can alter the truth of it. Ireland belongs to the Irish. We believe, then, that it is the duty of Irishmen to struggle always, never giving in or growing weary, until they have won back their country again.

[Kurt Cocaine]

Unfortunately now Ireland belongs to the EU and thus so, the globalist elite.
So much blood spilled for the few sand like trinkets of an imagined freedom.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

I think you are reaching with the 'untameable African savage' sentiment. I'll agree that people may associate black Africans with machetes, principally because of the Rwandan genocide in the mid nineties, but the rest is a very 19th century, Rudyard Kipling-esque form of expression which does not exist in our era.

Claiming a 27 year old has 32 previous convictions is tantamount to saying they are untameable. The words "savage" and "animal" have been rolled out quite frequently over the last few days. It all fits with the "we shouldn't be letting them into our country" vibe, as if Nkencho arrived at 7 years old, already the seed of what he would grow to be. It is precisely all very, very 19th century.

[Caomhaoin]

Savage and animal are words the tabloid press use frequently in fairness, just because this lad was black, the implication is hardly that he's a monkey or a bushman of the kalahari. Even within those 'irelandfortheirish' crowd, how many of them do you really think view black Africans in those terms?

And Ireland should be for the Irish, not the fucking EU, agreed on that yin KC.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Savage and animal are words the tabloid press use frequently in fairness, just because this lad was black, the implication is hardly that he's a monkey or a bushman of the kalahari. Even within those 'irelandfortheirish' crowd, how many of them do you really think view black Africans in those terms?

I'd say (personal guess) a vanishingly small number may perhaps still see Africans as some kind of "sub-breed", so "animals" in that subhuman sense. But a lot genuinely do see them as savages, uncivilized, not only not fit for but by essence not capable of living in western society according to western norms of behavior. Savages, as the term was used academically surprisingly far along into the 20th century, not to mention the popular imagination. Nature over nurture is the interpretative lens, no matter how bad or traumatic the nurturing may have been.

[Mower Liberation Front]

I'm really not saying anything there, beyond filling in details from the official sources as they come.

Obviously a kitchen knife can be as dangerous as a machete. But just conjure up these two images side by side: "Nigerian with kitchen knife", "Nigerian with machete". Which is closer to being a racial stereotype??

Nigerian with a knife is enough to get people worried and there is reason to be worried.

I'd say they'd prefer to see a Nigerian with a knife than a Guatemalan with a gun.
Or a Syrian with sarin.

[Pedrito]

I think people are far more informed now than at any time in our history. Even 50 years, what am I saying, even 20 years ago Africa seemed like a dark, mystical place where regular tales of bloodshed constantly came out of. Now, I know lads who regularly travel there, there's way more riding between people of all shapes, sizes and colours.

If we look at the crucifying Bertie Ahern got for being divorced, the likes of the Bishop Casey 'scandal', the constant outings of gay lads like Michael Barrymore or the likes by the gutter media, none of it is anything new, but we've changed dramatically in a tiny space of time. I don't think it's (tabloid media) an honest reflection of how people genuinely feel.

Most people are just too busy to be thinking if a lad is into drill rap or if he's into drillin lads' arses. All that most people want is no hassle. The idea that a section of society might pose a risk or might display signs of not wanting to 'conform/adapt/get along'  is the one thing that people might worry about and certainly if we look at our nearest neighbours, or plenty parts of mainland Europe, there is definite friction between 'groups' for whatever reason. We shouldn't want that and we should be very very vigilant and not being told to shut up by people who don't want to hurt peoples' 'feelings'. Better some hurt feelings than something far more serious.

[Pedrito]

I'm really not saying anything there, beyond filling in details from the official sources as they come.

Obviously a kitchen knife can be as dangerous as a machete. But just conjure up these two images side by side: "Nigerian with kitchen knife", "Nigerian with machete". Which is closer to being a racial stereotype??

Nigerian with a knife is enough to get people worried and there is reason to be worried.

I'd say they'd prefer to see a Nigerian with a knife than a Guatemalan with a gun.
Or a Syrian with sarin.

Is this a choice we have to or should be making? How about nobody has knives, we clamp down on thuggish and anti-social behaviour in all sectors of society and everybody gets out to work to try and make the country prosper. We look at the UK and the States as 'normal'. That amount of violence, be it knife, gun or physical should never be accepted as normal.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

The idea that a section of society might pose a risk or might display signs of not wanting to 'conform/adapt/get along'  is the one thing that people might worry about and certainly if we look at our nearest neighbours, or plenty parts of mainland Europe, there is definite friction between 'groups' for whatever reason. We shouldn't want that and we should be very very vigilant and not being told to shut up by people who don't want to hurt peoples' 'feelings'. Better some hurt feelings than something far more serious.

None of the discussion here has been about being told to "shut up by people who don't want to hurt people's feelings". It's been about not being led to spread misinformation by people who do want to hurt people's feelings, their lives, their opportunities, etc., etc. "Send them back to where they came from!"

It's now gotten to the point where, rather than stopping for a moment and reflectively examining why one's own brain would initially have such an emotional explosion at an event not directly affecting any of us, and why it would try to draw reasonable conclusions from within that emotional explosion (I'd invite you to review your first judge, jury, and executioner style comment in this thread about this event), rather than doing that, we practically end up with denials of the very idea that symbols have a powerful impact over thought, the more iconic the symbols the better, and that therefore the manipulation of symbols (i.e. propaganda) can be and is used to voluntarily direct group-think. In other words, rather than accept that each and every one of us is susceptible to the power of symbol manipulation, let's just claim it doesn't exist. It's like epistemic sour grapes.