The PC and Perpetually Offended Brigade

[Ollkiller]

So the "Hechscher Ohlin" model is used in economics to show how countries should trade when resources are imbalanced in the world. Theres many versions of the graph depending on what factors you use. But it does give insight on how different factors affect output, productivity and wage levels.

I knew it 10 years ago. Cant make head nor tail of it now lol

[Caomhaoin]

The problem with Chris, and his verbosity, is that he has no idea how to explain why xenophobia is a bad thing.

[mickO)))]

The protests are not just about housing that is only one of a number of issues that people have a problem with. Not to worry because the Government will save the day soon when the housing for 'all' referendum is proposed later this year.

[Ollkiller]

The problem with Chris, and his verbosity, is that he has no idea how to explain why xenophobia is a bad thing.

I read an article before on which civilisations prospered while others failed hundreds of years ago. The biggest factor was trust. Those civilisations who trusted their neighbours and embraced the barter system thrived. These that had low levels of trust eventually failed. So seemingly xenophobia isnt great if you want a prosperous civilisation. Can what worked hundreds and thousands of years ago still apply today? One to ponder.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

"The third world constantly sends her own surplus to the Irish labor market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the Irish working class"

Xenophobic fascism etc etc? In fact that's a direct quote from Karl Marx, all I've done is exchange third world and English for Irish.

It's not all you've done: you've also tried to make it sound like economic theory which (may or may not have) applied in an economy in 1870 where peasants were fodder and where Ireland was under the control of the English, is relevant in the 21st century. You've also completely removed it from its context: in the full letter it's from, Marx is pretty clear about the real target of his ire.

Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the "poor whites" to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.

This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Darwin and all the lads used to refer to Africans and Indigenous Asians and Americans as "savages" around the same time. That wasn't fascist then, but if you call someone a "savage" today, in the 21st century, merely on the basis of their country of origin, then you don't get the same kinda green card we give to Darwin and Co. Marx may or may not have been right in 1870 about what he said, but we know that things in the enormously changed modern market don't work like that, and people (not talking about hellfire or any users here) who really know the ins and outs of economics yet peddle that kind of discourse in the 21st century, they are doing so for exactly the same kind of reasons Marx went on to underline in the passage I chose to cite from the same letter. And those in the political class, or aspiring to be in the political class, who do peddle that discourse are similarly "quite aware of this."

[hellfire]

"The third world constantly sends her own surplus to the Irish labor market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the Irish working class"

Xenophobic fascism etc etc? In fact that's a direct quote from Karl Marx, all I've done is exchange third world and English for Irish.

Do you mean the same Karl Marx who wrote:

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I'm glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation. The chap would sooner throw money down the drain than lend it to a 'friend,' even though his interest and capital were guaranteed. ... It is now quite plain to me—as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify—that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow's importunity is also niggerlike"


And this:

" What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Haggling. What is his worldly god? Money! ... Money is the jealous god of Israel before whom no other god may exist.
Money degrades all the gods of mankind and converts them into commodities ... What is contained abstractly in the Jewish religion – contempt for theory, for art, for history, for man as an end in himself ... The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Jewishness."


And knocked up his maid? Who incidentally was never paid a wage more than a keep? That Karl Marx? The man who would have been considered a deplorable racist even if time and place was given as an excuse.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Yes, that Karl Marx. Jewish lookin' guy.

[Caomhaoin]

Yes, that Karl Marx. Jewish lookin' guy.

Edit - Bollocks to arguing with lemons on the internet.

[Caomhaoin]

The problem with Chris, and his verbosity, is that he has no idea how to explain why xenophobia is a bad thing.

I read an article before on which civilisations prospered while others failed hundreds of years ago. The biggest factor was trust. Those civilisations who trusted their neighbours and embraced the barter system thrived. These that had low levels of trust eventually failed. So seemingly xenophobia isnt great if you want a prosperous civilisation. Can what worked hundreds and thousands of years ago still apply today? One to ponder.

Maybe pal, but who knows? Articles exist which support claims of all kinds.

[Black Shepherd Carnage]

Yes, that Karl Marx. Jewish lookin' guy.

Edit - Bollocks to arguing with lemons on the internet.

Haha, no worries; I was mainly taking the piss, since at the same time (see Stand-Up thread) I was watching a "secular" Jewish comedian taking the piss out of Jewishness.

[The Butcher]

Maybe pal, but who knows? Articles exist which support claims of all kinds.

I'd agree with this. Many articles/reports to back any position on migration and wages as it's heavily politicised. Depends on many other factors too. Irish Universities Association says there are currently over 32,000 international students studying in Ireland availing of the extensive range of courses available. For universities this plugs the deficits they have as these student pay much much more but then a lot of these students end up feeling exploited as they arrive into a housing crisis, what's more important currently to our society as a whole, shouldn't we be telling these students not to come? ->

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/we-feel-exploited-international-students-on-studying-in-ireland-1.4784355

https://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/not-enough-migrants-arriving-to-keep-pay-down-central-bank-38356212.html

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/we-ve-got-a-crisis-we-need-workers-big-business-urges-election-winner-to-boost-migration-20220513-p5aky9.html

I do become highly skeptical at business leaders foaming at the mouth over these issues as with the last link. Seems to me that the ideal for our consumption led pyramid scheme society is that immigrants create more demand than they suppress wages after all the calculations are done and dusted so feck all the other factors involved, the time it takes to build accommodation, to build, hell even maintain infrastructure, feck school class sizes, feck the ever increasing waiting lists in our hospitals, we must lower our standards and quality of life, with not even a democractic discussion coinciding with a vote on these very impactful decisions. To say it's just about housing is very very disingenuous and I despise the hateful idiots outside these centres protesting along with the misguided and fearful. In reality Ireland isn't full. Ireland for all sounds lovely and bubbly in theory but ain't reality either.

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/a78027-statistics-on-personal-public-service-pps-numbers-issued/#2023

23k PPSNs for January 2023 - 5k Irish, 3,750 approx Ukraine - and look at 2022, 2021 etc, replacement migration is supposedly a right wing conspiracy theory! I've often seem them spout this online but how do you counter it with figures like these?

[hellfire]

The wage depression I was speaking of was at the lower end of the scale. I don't think it's acceptable that someone should have to go to college and work a professional job in order to make ends meet. With a constant supply of unskilled labour you create a class of people for whom society doesn't work. Sinn Fein abandoned the working class completely and Labour not existing because they did the same. Representation for these people doesn't really exist at present. Expect more unpleasant scenes. If the rest of Europe is anything to go by then vandalism and arson are on the horizon for asylum centres. Not saying that's right but it's stupid to think we won't end up going the exact same way.

[Kunt 4 Life]

So how about these Roal Dahl books being changed where you can't call Augustus Gloop fat or the Twits ugly?

[astfgyl]

So how about these Roal Dahl books being changed where you can't call Augustus Gloop fat or the Twits ugly?

Threw that in a page or two back. It's stupid really. The things are a product of their time and if people are that easily offended they should probably just write new books for themselves that they won't be offended by.

[astfgyl]

So how about these Roal Dahl books being changed where you can't call Augustus Gloop fat or the Twits ugly?

Threw that in a page or two back. It's stupid really. The things are a product of their time and if people are that easily offended they should probably just write new books for themselves that they won't be offended by.

Was thinking about how quickly this one died actually. It's the first thing thrown in here in quite a while that didn't have a single person speaking up for it.

Even Paul McGrath didn't try to talk us round