I'm reading the most recent edition of Bardo Methodology and the theme seems to be centred on artists with an extreme approach to life as much as their art. Dangerous people who have enacted extreme violence upon themselves and others, and in some cases have spent time in prison for criminal activities.
There is a certain "romantic" view of black metal, and I'm guilty of it myself to a degree, which states that black metal isn't and cannot be authentic without the people involved engaging in deviant behavior of one kind or another. Self harm seems to have been a big thing at various times and among certain scenes with many practitioners terribly disfiguring themselves through bloodletting. Suicides seem not uncommon. Use of hard drugs. Spiritual adventures that can either be interpreted as opening portals to dark forces that compromise the soul, or deep and dark psychological breaks with reality. Naziism, far right and/or other extreme ideologies are seldom far away.
Much of this kind of activity is considered by some to be central to the experience of being a young black metal devotee, exploring personal limits, and I can see the attraction of that sort of behavior as a rite of passage for young men of a certain mind set, who perhaps haven't had a stable upbringing or are even just caught up in a form of peer pressure or social contagion.
What are people's views on these matters? Is it deluded to think that bands who sing about incredibly dark and destructive topics should act out their words? Is it a strength to push past social norms and go hard against the grain of your family's values and the expectations of those around you or is it more a case of young lads being too weak willed to back down from extreme forms of antisocial behavior in the face of their peer group with the associated expectations and demands?
Is spiritual struggle through asceticism admirable and monkish behavior that leads to inner growth and wisdom or is it more likely a representation of psychosis?
And perhaps regardless of your stance on any of those questions, do you still secretly like the fact that there is a small percentage of artists among us who dare to go the extra mile to create their art? Do their extracurricular activities make the listening experience feel more fraught with darkness and danger or is it completely irrelevant? Does music trump all of the above?
Think we've covered Nazism and other unpleasantness ad nauseum on here.
Still, massive communist rant inbound in 5...4...3...
Think this one might be a full page :laugh:
I suppose it is likely to go that direction if we let it, but it's also at least possible to have an interesting discussion on the subject without all falling into our preordained roles.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on February 16, 2024, 10:24:42 AMIs it deluded to think that bands who sing about incredibly dark and destructive topics should act out their words? Is it a strength to push past social norms and go hard against the grain of your family's values and the expectations of those around you or is it more a case of young lads being too weak willed to back down from extreme forms of antisocial behavior in the face of their peer group with the associated expectations and demands?
Is spiritual struggle through asceticism admirable and monkish behavior that leads to inner growth and wisdom or is it more likely a representation of psychosis?
And perhaps regardless of your stance on any of those questions, do you still secretly like the fact that there is a small percentage of artists among us who dare to go the extra mile to create their art? Do their extracurricular activities make the listening experience feel more fraught with darkness and danger or is it completely irrelevant? Does music trump all of the above?
Very good questions! What's fascinating to me as a phenomenon is the fact of great art coming from so many different origins. It's fascinating to me that Varg, a murderer and often hate-filled racist in a way I find ludicrous and damnable, was nevertheless a channel for what I find to be achingly poignant music. I don't think I like Burzum
more because of that fact, but it definitely does add something to the aesthetic experience whenever I think about the individual who created it. Put Peste Noire in the same category. It's not that far removed from, say, Mozart and the scatological humour found throughout his letters: it feels like that should be a disconnect, given the "angelic" beauty of some of his compositions. When it comes to art, embracing the full, sometimes seemingly paradoxical, complexity of the relationship between the artist and what they create can only enrich the experience, even if that means the deeper experience sometimes has an uncomfortable dimension to it. Inquisition, as another example, the music is the same, still has all the same purely sensory qualities I loved about it as before, but my experience while listening to it has absolutely changed since the revelations of his activities. And that experiential shift, and all the myriad facets of what impacts aesthetic experience, I am very much here for that.
Yes, there's something in it I think. On one hand you might say it takes a dangerous mind to create dangerous art. On the other hand you might say it is a bit naive to have your enjoyment of an art form influenced by the cult of personality behind its creation. But then, you could also argue that there is only subjective experience so everything that colours or enhances that emotional response is valid. Vital even!
Another element that could be considered is the LARPing nature of black metal in particular. I can see the ludicrous side of it but it is also possible to imagine that the physically acting out and inhabiting of these roles might act as a mental primer of sorts, a way to tap into whatever energy the artist is aiming for. From a spiritual or religious standpoint that might be accessing the supernatural but from a more mundane psychological viewpoint it might be tapping into the subconscious structures of the mind, where the shadows rule! Maybe it's the case that both things are true.
Good thread. I think some need to immerse themselves to get it going. Sort of method acting, whereas others just play their part and get in character for the stage act and little else. Both approaches have their merits but I would have been more drawn to the lads that walked the walk when I was a young fella and I think that's the crux of it really, being more impressionable and being somewhat drawn to the darker side of things.
Nowadays it doesn't seem so cool when a chap stands someone for being gay or kills themselves or sets fire to churches. Well it doesn't seem so cool to a lad in his forties bringing the kids on the school run before work and heading to hurling training for the evening. I still listen to stuff like that now not a bother but I don't get too into the characters behind it anymore.
Then again I can see how someone would lose themselves on stage with the thrill of it all and maybe go harming themselves or acting out violent impulses in the heat of the moment.
Quote from: astfgyl on February 16, 2024, 08:38:53 PMGood thread. I think some need to immerse themselves to get it going. Sort of method acting, whereas others just play their part and get in character for the stage act and little else. Both approaches have their merits but I would have been more drawn to the lads that walked the walk when I was a young fella and I think that's the crux of it really, being more impressionable and being somewhat drawn to the darker side of things.
Nowadays it doesn't seem so cool when a chap stands someone for being gay or kills themselves or sets fire to churches. Well it doesn't seem so cool to a lad in his forties bringing the kids on the school run before work and heading to hurling training for the evening. I still listen to stuff like that now not a bother but I don't get too into the characters behind it anymore.
Then again I can see how someone would lose themselves on stage with the thrill of it all and maybe go harming themselves or acting out violent impulses in the heat of the moment.
Thats exactly it. I remember being enthralled by stories about Glen Benton and Kerrang's coverage of the church burnings when I hadn't heard a note of the music. The Satanic aspect was especially alluring to me as a teenager trying to rebel. There was also an element of mystery to these bands that's been lost.
Listening to the likes of Burzum still gives me a thrill, and an element of that is definitely nostalgia for a time when I was drawn to the dangerous characters making the music, but nowadays I'm far more interested in the music than the antics.
I still find GG Allin fascinating though.
RIP GG
For me BM is one of the few the type of music that you can tell straight away when somebody genuinely believes with every fibre of those being the message they are trying to get across.
Nothing to do with politics and the far right far left topic in the other thread at all.
The artists that come across as genuinely invested in the music and the subject matter invoke a level of fear , intimidation and and a sense of awe. By that I mean there a few that if the occasion ever arose I wouldn't approach with even to say thank you for the music or whatever.
That comes across as being stupid but the point is they have an air of danger stay away.
Gaahl, Hoest, The Count. Those three alone seem unhinged. Please don't sit next to me on the bus kind of kind of way.
When I listen to Burzum and it's one of the instrumentals I still get transfixed and lost in it.
It's like going on a journey. I know he is a violent person but still he draws you in.
Does the the unhinged nature of these peoples' personalities actually infuse their music with a tangible essence or do we use our knowledge of their characters to help colour our listening experience? Can normal people, whatever that means, create truly evil and dark music or can they only ever imitate? Should the creation of black metal music or satanic death metal be left to truly transgressive people? Should the rest of the metal world only ever be spectators?
You tell us ya big teddy bear :laugh:
The question reminds of something I do dislike though, or used to anyway: when bands who make dark music don't reflect that at all off stage, in interviews, etc.
Mora than likely for a lot of them we will never know how unhinged or how willing to kill, destroy or wreak genuine havoc these people are.
As violence comes in so many shapes and forms we can never truly know who get to create music about it.
I can't say for definite if I'd be as drawn to the likes of Burzum without the back story as I knew it before I knew the music.
Let's just say if you see his dead eyed stare or a young Glen Benton gurning at the camera you can tell straight away which one of them is more likely to eat your heart.
Does that give Varg and his like the exclusive right to creating this type of extremely dark music? I don't think it does. It's all relative to our own experience and the person listening to it. I don't mean to single out Burzum as an example but he in one of the most notorious so it's hard not to.
If my kids hear Chopped In Half they laugh and mimic that Tardy growl. If they hear Taake or Gjendød they get quite bothered by it.
I discovered Gjendød through one of your threads and they feel like they are on the edge. Particularly that last album. It's slower and more menacing yet strangely beautiful.
The photo from the first album screams we will eat you and your bones will never be found.
Also if a band keep everything behind the curtain it adds a level of intensity and dark drama that's hard to figure out. I don't know and have never met McLove or the other fella from Malthusian.
The first demo is the stuff of nightmares.
Then you read their posts and they seem like witty, clever people.
Do I think they are Satanic war generals ready for murder? No.
Does the early stuff they put out seem like the backdrop to insanity and violence? Yes.
Perspective and the person experiencing the art form decide which way it's received.
.
. Double post
Great question and pretty much gets to the root of black metal in my opinion.
I 'discovered' black metal at the age of 13, when Kerrang had a Norwegian black metal special issue that read like a Woman's Own; all scandal, controversy and transgression. It detailed the church burnings the satanism and murders and had profiles of all the main characters involved, as well as a small selection of recommended 'essential' second wave tracks.
Funny to think of now and I dearly wish I still had the magazine, but I would say without doubt that the controversy, outlandish behaviour and socially unacceptable nature of the scene as described is exactly what pulled me in, as a 13 year old boy.
I think I illegally downloaded a handful of tracks right away and one of them was Emperors Inno A Satana, and that was that, life trajectory changed.
I have more thoughts on this but I need to ruminate on it for a while.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on February 16, 2024, 11:08:56 PMYou tell us ya big teddy bear :laugh:
It's something I think about. I have dabbled a little bit here and there but I think I might have too much of an agnostic personality to create an all-in black metal band. Who knows, I might do it one day and it might be good. But will it be authentic if I'm not a practicing Satanist, self harmer, criminal...
Quote from: Eoin McLove on February 16, 2024, 10:59:27 PMDoes the the unhinged nature of these peoples' personalities actually infuse their music with a tangible essence or do we use our knowledge of their characters to help colour our listening experience? Can normal people, whatever that means, create truly evil and dark music or can they only ever imitate? Should the creation of black metal music or satanic death metal be left to truly transgressive people? Should the rest of the metal world only ever be spectators?
I think it's the latter mostly but only about 51/49.
First proper black metal album I ever heard was In the Nightside Eclipse when I was 14. It wasn't the kind of metal I was into at the time, and it probably took another four or so years before I properly appreciated it, but even then I thought it sounded truly evil and other-worldly. The Kerrang article at the time probably heightened the mystique surrounding it, but it was the sound rather than the backstory that grabbed my attention at the time.
I'm in two minds about some of those Bardo interviews. On the one hand, I prefer black metal to take itself seriously. On the other, the way some of those lads carry on is a bit cringe. I mean, are you really evil? A true misanthrope? Or are you a grown adult who's just a bit socially awkward and cultivating this persona? From a personal perspective, I've worked enough years in the emergency services to know what an evil person looks like, and more often than not it's a scrote in a Canada Goose jacket as opposed to someone wearing spikes and a bullet belt.
Interesting perspective.
My opinion is divided as always. When I think of these dudes cutting themselves, I mean really going for it like the Reverorum ib Malacht dude talks about in Bardo, I think that there is something dangerous and unhinged in it. To willfully harm yourself in that way is not only taboo but it must take a certain amount of focus and will power to cross that line. I also think it's kind of a trend and, perhaps not that guy specifically, but many of these sorts of people are so far into the subculture that to be taken seriously by their friends they have to perform in that way and from that perspective it seems like the opposite of will power. It seems weak and callow. But then those who don't 'go all the way' yet espouse Nietzsche as an influence or claim to despise humanity or to be a devil worshiper seem weak and unconvincing. Having all of the academic acumen but none of the transgressive behavior can be read in this context as being a bit of a poser.
Hah. Paradox upon paradox.
I think weird art is generally made by weird people (and lets be honest, most people who are obsessively into any niche hobby are probably a little weird, including all of us). For most people that weirdness is harmless, but obviously there are a small percentage of people who are actually crazy or dangerous.
So you could argue that craziness does play a part in the art they made, but does how their craziness manifests itself make the music more legitimate than say, a lad who's just socially awkward as fuck. I mean is Varg Vikernes more legit or more metal than Tom G Warrior? That's a no for my money, but we still apply the craziness of a guy like Varg's or Nodveidt's actions to their music.
Absolutely. Those actions are inextricable from the art because, at least in the case of black metal, burning churches and killing one's perceived enemies or comnitting suicide is kind of close to living out what is being promoted philosophically through the art.
I am not subscribed to Bardo so I can't comment on that person.
It does seem that some of the people involved in extreme music particularly Black Metal are more open about their interest in the darker side of things and for want of a better word evil.
When I read the three Cult Never Dies books about BM it almost became a chore as so many interviews ended up with same mantra.
Everyone and everything is shit.
Would these musicians still express themselves without the BM vehicle?
Probably. If it's in you then you have to let it out.
Quote from: Circlepit on February 16, 2024, 11:26:58 PMThen you read their posts and they seem like witty, clever people.
We're not. It's all part of the facade.
Quote from: open face surgery on February 17, 2024, 02:50:54 PMQuote from: Circlepit on February 16, 2024, 11:26:58 PMThen you read their posts and they seem like witty, clever people.
We're not. It's all part of the facade.
But the facade is what makes it all the more compelling.
I'll start by saying black metal has never resonated with me at all. I've tried, I've a load of albums, many of them acknowledged as classics of the genre, based on recommendations in this and the previous forum, which just do nothing for me. I've listened, but I just don't get it. C'est la vie.
I was going to keep a respectful distance from replying as the allure of the music is something I just don't resonate with, but the mention of Tom G Warrior dragged me in. I remember, as a kid, picking up Morbid Tales in 1988 in Abbey Discs. I was 13. I had a C90 with To Mega Therion on one side which a mate of mine had copied for me. I fucking loved it. The pics on the back of Morbid Tales, particularly Ain and Priestly, looked fucking demented to young me. It was the first time I had ever seen these guys. It felt dangerous picking up, that fucking front cover. I knew absolutley nothing about them other than what I heard on To Mega Therion and what I was holding in my hands, so I bought it. When I got home, the intro, Human, sounded haunting, genuinely disturbing, and I fucking loved it. Still, I knew nothing about any of them and, when I picked up Cold Lake when it came out a few months later, it was confusing that the same guys could make this very different music :laugh:
Despite not getting on with the music, the general shenanigans of black metal is quite interesting. I've read a lot, know most of the characters and their tales. I wonder how much of it is the artists feeling they need to be acknowledged as dangerous, so intentionally set out to be seen as such? Is it an Ouroborosian self-feeding thing where, knowing they need to be more outrageous and "trve" than what had gone before, the subsequent generations went further and deeper into something they were not mentally equipped to deal with as kids? They all got into it young and, speaking as an old belligerent cunt now, I acknowledge I was a fucking tool as a teenager. The whole thing has changed from what I grew up with in the 80's, though. I used to buy albums based on a t-shirt someone wore in a picture in a magazine or album sleeve. It was a blissful ignorance. You know what I mean? There was a time where all you knew about music was what you held in your hands and what you heard in your ears. You didn't know the back story, just the music and what was presented on the album sleeve. It was easier to appear dangerous and mysterious back then. The advent of knowing everything about everybody started around mid-90's and ties in with the advent of the Norwegian stuff, in a way.
I suppose the point is I knew a lot about Euronymous and Varg before I heard them and was probably at the age where it seemed like a bunch of arsehole kids trying to outdo each other, which may have turned me off the music before I ever heard it. I think they were conscious of their notoriety too, played up to it and, of course, those who followed in their wake knew people knew, if you know what I mean. The changing landscape around what people knew, from the 80's to the 90's to the 00's, about the guys on the album sleeve meant you couldn't just look demented, you had to have tales of demented acts accompany you. Kids these days grow up in public through social media, The black metal lads also grew up in public, somewhat, through the notoriety of the acts which made the likes of Kerrang take notice. Did they dive further into it because they truly believed in it or because they knew it would make people take notice, whether they realised it not not? With that, I'll respectfully piss off.
I suppose as an appendix, I met Glenn Benton outside McGonagles when Deicide played their first Irish gig in 1990, when the scabs in his forehead were still fresh. He had come across as an evil cunt in the interviews I had read and that first album is fucking ferocious to this day, but he was a really nice fella in person, quite humble that people were coming to see the band so far away from his home. He was just a kid from Florida and they played without the armour, meat or any of the bullshit (or even a support band) and were stll fucking incredible. I realised you can be sound and play evil sounding music, that a lot of it was just young lads playing at being cunts which may have skewed my ability to digest Varg and Noitvedt, etc. Why can't we all get along? :laugh:
Quote from: Bürggermeister on February 17, 2024, 08:47:51 PMI suppose as an appendix, I met Glenn Benton outside McGonagles when Deicide played their first Irish gig in 1990, when the scabs in his forehead were still fresh. He had come across as an evil cunt in the interviews I had read and that first album is fucking ferocious to this day, but he was a really nice fella in person, quite humble that people were coming to see the band so far away from his home. He was just a kid from Florida and they played without the armour, meat or any of the bullshit (or even a support band) and were stll fucking incredible. I realised you can be sound and play evil sounding music, that a lot of it was just young lads playing at being cunts which may have skewed my ability to digest Varg and Noitvedt, etc. Why can't we all get along? :laugh:
Funnily enough I met Benton myself outside The Village when they played there and he was not at all what I'd have thought in terms of personality. Not standoffish at all
Ya, I met him at that Village gig as well and the minute I heard him talk in his normal yank accent all the evil disappeared. 😄
Quote from: open face surgery on February 17, 2024, 09:39:23 PMYa, I met him at that Village gig as well and the minute I heard him talk in his normal yank accent all the evil disappeared. 😄
:laugh: he was trying to come on to my bird but she thought he was a dirty old man with a creepy voice.
"Hellllaaaowwww". No joke that's the way the lad was talking
Quote from: ldj on February 17, 2024, 10:05:58 AMI think weird art is generally made by weird people (and lets be honest, most people who are obsessively into any niche hobby are probably a little weird, including all of us). For most people that weirdness is harmless, but obviously there are a small percentage of people who are actually crazy or dangerous.
So you could argue that craziness does play a part in the art they made, but does how their craziness manifests itself make the music more legitimate than say, a lad who's just socially awkward as fuck. I mean is Varg Vikernes more legit or more metal than Tom G Warrior? That's a no for my money, but we still apply the craziness of a guy like Varg's or Nodveidt's actions to their music.
Just on the mention of Nodtveidt. Despite the lads fixation on and strongly held belief in Satanism the music he created is fairly twee in comparison to his views and beliefs.
Quote from: Born of Fire on February 17, 2024, 10:31:57 PMQuote from: ldj on February 17, 2024, 10:05:58 AMI think weird art is generally made by weird people (and lets be honest, most people who are obsessively into any niche hobby are probably a little weird, including all of us). For most people that weirdness is harmless, but obviously there are a small percentage of people who are actually crazy or dangerous.
So you could argue that craziness does play a part in the art they made, but does how their craziness manifests itself make the music more legitimate than say, a lad who's just socially awkward as fuck. I mean is Varg Vikernes more legit or more metal than Tom G Warrior? That's a no for my money, but we still apply the craziness of a guy like Varg's or Nodveidt's actions to their music.
Just on the mention of Nodtveidt. Despite the lads fixation on and strongly held belief in Satanism the music he created is fairly twee in comparison to his views and beliefs.
Stop, he is one of the very best to ever do it.
Quote from: Circlepit on February 17, 2024, 10:45:41 PMQuote from: Born of Fire on February 17, 2024, 10:31:57 PMQuote from: ldj on February 17, 2024, 10:05:58 AMI think weird art is generally made by weird people (and lets be honest, most people who are obsessively into any niche hobby are probably a little weird, including all of us). For most people that weirdness is harmless, but obviously there are a small percentage of people who are actually crazy or dangerous.
So you could argue that craziness does play a part in the art they made, but does how their craziness manifests itself make the music more legitimate than say, a lad who's just socially awkward as fuck. I mean is Varg Vikernes more legit or more metal than Tom G Warrior? That's a no for my money, but we still apply the craziness of a guy like Varg's or Nodveidt's actions to their music.
Just on the mention of Nodtveidt. Despite the lads fixation on and strongly held belief in Satanism the music he created is fairly twee in comparison to his views and beliefs.
Stop, he is one of the very best to ever do it.
Oh don't get me wrong, I love Dissections music but to me there does seem to be a big disconnect between the views he espoused and the beautiful melodies in his music.
Quite a lot of time is devoted to him in the book on Swedish death metal. He came across as such an innocent, almost child like. He also murdered someone and took his own life.
It's nuts that he put out music that's almost uplifting.
The fist time I heard Dissection I thought that this is what Van Halen would have sounded like if they were Scandinavian and played more extreme music.
Was he inherently evil or just using a more extreme form of music to get his point across? I don't know. The music was what came out when he wrote stuff.
What I've always found most fascinating with him was how he decided he had achieved what he has set out to do and ended it.
I can't fathom how he came to that way of thinking. Of course that's taking what has been written about him very literally.
I'm waffling now as I finished work and have had a drink or two.
I will say thing be they evil or not.
BM and DM just keep on giving.
I think the the early bands were more inspired and that's what made such classic albums .
The Finnish,Swedish and Norwegian bands of the early nineties were actually inspired .they felt they were evil and different from the herd and all the great early BM sounds totally different too .they all had their own take on it
I think you need a few eccentric individuals to make inspired BM .grand saying you can pick up a guitar or blast like hellhammer but if your really a sheep it will show .
You don't have to commit crimes but individuality is the key .
I remember the transition from Morbid Angel to Burzum, Emperor, Darkthrone (particularly after the first album) and Mayhem (Wolfs Lair was out).
There was a significant (Seismic) change in the scene, in the 90's, some people in bands here in Ireland were travelling to European festivals and some travelled to find more underground elements. The ideas coming back and the contacts made drove (for some) a more extreme view which did cost some friendships. It was over 20 years before I recall talking to some people again. Our views had become different, some had become less tolerant of subgenres and more extreme. Politics did come into it. Then there were a few deaths oversees. Some people went to prison. Some got burnt out in Berlin (if you know what I am talking about here, you will know who and what I am speaking of). Places I couldn't go.
When we think of where metal came from, the dance / rave, political and religious run ins..... especially if you were young. You put up with a lot of societal noise. We were open minded and tolerant society wasn't! For some Darkness in music was political fanaticism expressed through Black Metal.
For those who kept and open mind it was a great experience to go to other cities and make new friends skipping the extreme.
The musical journey was fantastic. The world changed.
Years later I knew people who were getting tattoos removed, lamenting the loss of 20 years of friendship as maturity set in.
This journey continues......
Quote from: Born of Fire on February 17, 2024, 10:56:23 PMQuote from: Circlepit on February 17, 2024, 10:45:41 PMQuote from: Born of Fire on February 17, 2024, 10:31:57 PMQuote from: ldj on February 17, 2024, 10:05:58 AMI think weird art is generally made by weird people (and lets be honest, most people who are obsessively into any niche hobby are probably a little weird, including all of us). For most people that weirdness is harmless, but obviously there are a small percentage of people who are actually crazy or dangerous.
So you could argue that craziness does play a part in the art they made, but does how their craziness manifests itself make the music more legitimate than say, a lad who's just socially awkward as fuck. I mean is Varg Vikernes more legit or more metal than Tom G Warrior? That's a no for my money, but we still apply the craziness of a guy like Varg's or Nodveidt's actions to their music.
Just on the mention of Nodtveidt. Despite the lads fixation on and strongly held belief in Satanism the music he created is fairly twee in comparison to his views and beliefs.
Stop, he is one of the very best to ever do it.
Oh don't get me wrong, I love Dissections music but to me there does seem to be a big disconnect between the views he espoused and the beautiful melodies in his music.
If we're playing this game, the Old Funeral and (particularly) Thou Shalt Suffer eps are far more sinister and "evil"sounding than anything Burzum/Immortal and Emperor produced respectively. Likewise Absu up to V.I.T.R.I.O.L. versus their later stuff..Part of the reason BM got boring for me quickly was how tuneful a lot of the bm bands were at the time compared to death metal. Not what I wanted from metal at the time particularly given the big scary game these people were talking in interviews at the time.
Quote from: KingHostile on February 18, 2024, 01:16:44 PMI remember the transition from Morbid Angel to Burzum, Emperor, Darkthrone (particularly after the first album) and Mayhem (Wolfs Lair was out).
There was a significant (Seismic) change in the scene, in the 90's, some people in bands here in Ireland were travelling to European festivals and some travelled to find more underground elements. The ideas coming back and the contacts made drove (for some) a more extreme view which did cost some friendships. It was over 20 years before I recall talking to some people again. Our views had become different, some had become less tolerant of subgenres and more extreme. Politics did come into it. Then there were a few deaths oversees. Some people went to prison. Some got burnt out in Berlin (if you know what I am talking about here, you will know who and what I am speaking of). Places I couldn't go.
When we think of where metal came from, the dance / rave, political and religious run ins..... especially if you were young. You put up with a lot of societal noise. We were open minded and tolerant society wasn't! For some Darkness in music was political fanaticism expressed through Black Metal.
For those who kept and open mind it was a great experience to go to other cities and make new friends skipping the extreme.
The musical journey was fantastic. The world changed.
Years later I knew people who were getting tattoos removed, lamenting the loss of 20 years of friendship as maturity set in.
This journey continues......
I have notions of these stories from conversations with certain heads a bit older than me back in the day. Understand you don't want to get into it, but it is the flesh and blood of a scene most often idealized in abstract.
I would like to hear more details about all of that. Very intriguing.
That post read to me as a general summary of the time rather than anything specific to the Irish scene at the time. Might have misinterpreted it though.
Oh I read it as a reference to the local scene, which would be interesting to hear more about.
Quote from: Circlepit on February 18, 2024, 12:00:47 AMWhat I've always found most fascinating with him was how he decided he had achieved what he has set out to do and ended it.
I can't fathom how he came to that way of thinking. Of course that's taking what has been written about him very literally.
Sure doesn't it say in the same book the biker gang (or whoever) he borrowed money off to put on the reunion show were coming round looking their money back. I'd be taking the "achieved what he set out to do and ended it" with a healthy pinch of salt.
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Quote from: DaveG on February 19, 2024, 10:50:19 AMQuote from: Circlepit on February 18, 2024, 12:00:47 AMWhat I've always found most fascinating with him was how he decided he had achieved what he has set out to do and ended it.
I can't fathom how he came to that way of thinking. Of course that's taking what has been written about him very literally.
Sure doesn't it say in the same book the biker gang (or whoever) he borrowed money off to put on the reunion show were coming round looking their money back. I'd be taking the "achieved what he set out to do and ended it" with a healthy pinch of salt.
Which book is that, Blood fire death ?I dont recall reading any reference to him oweing money in that book?
Was it legion of wolves or something like that that he was ivolved with but I did read at the time of Jons death that guy vlad did influence his lyrical writing and idelogy views on the last album Reinkaos with all that LMO stuff.
I don't recall the money issues in Blood Fire Death either.
On a side note is the other book on Swedish Death Metal any good? The one with the cartoon type cover.
yep
The Finnish one isnt though
Yep, a quick skim read of that chapter and there doesn't seem to be any mention. I might have mixed that up with an interview.
Quote from: Circlepit on February 19, 2024, 02:26:50 PMOn a side note is the other book on Swedish Death Metal any good? The one with the cartoon type cover.
Which one is this out of interest?
https://www.easons.com/swedish-death-metal-daniel-ekeroth-9780979616310?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk_Dk4Ya4hAMV6pJQBh3UpAGJEAQYASABEgL9z_D_BwE
This one. I haven't read it as I thought there would be a huge crossover with Blood Fire Death.
Ah sound. I haven't read Blood Fire Death so might pick it up. Seems to be cheaper on Amazon.
Quote from: Circlepit on February 19, 2024, 06:42:28 PMhttps://www.easons.com/swedish-death-metal-daniel-ekeroth-9780979616310?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk_Dk4Ya4hAMV6pJQBh3UpAGJEAQYASABEgL9z_D_BwE
This one. I haven't read it as I thought there would be a huge crossover with Blood Fire Death.
cool, is that worth the read?
The Blood, Fire, Death book is interesting. It feels like it's written by a fan for a fan rather than somebody who is interested the genre.
It focuses more on a few bands rather than a broad stoke.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on February 19, 2024, 10:10:38 AMOh I read it as a reference to the local scene, which would be interesting to hear more about.
It is indeed a direct reference. It broadly tells a story of a larger group of people within which an extreme element germinated. This extreme was idolized to a point. Admired? I think some of these people were destined to be extreme and find a road less travelled regardless of their musical interest. However this extreme was of a darker nature. We are not talking about walking alone in rain forests, we are talking about militarism, politics, religious views, a cult (abbey street for example, there were 2. 3 if you counted that way!). Today some of these people are a bit regretful, their musical output is still out there and they are still on the periphery of the metal scene via contacts/acquaintances. Some have sought to leave the metal music world behind in an extreme way. Completely blanked don't want to talk about it. They still live reasonably extreme lives. There is a kind of a neo conservatism. I keep thinking Burzum for at least two of them, this shunning almost of modern society. Almost a fear, which I think is what people idolized, the extreme imagery of like a strength if you will to fight the fear of life, society, lack of confidence.
Weirdly I would suggest these people are still quite creative, their creative output just isn't metal anymore. At times not even music. A weird pity I suppose. But similar to the way we find Burzum and the lack of tolerance towards them in todays musical / societal norms I don't think these people if still in a band would be able to function. The woke movement is a particular target during conversation. Any sort of tolerance towards it is a point of pain.
There was of course other stuff going on during the hey day for exmaple Black Magic which I always felt was a Morbid Angel fandom type thing. I'd stick with the music!Then I've seen some strange things so I can' do a Han Solo comment. No ghosts or apparitions I'm afraid (get it) but defo people dressed in black and hooded....like I said weird to me
Colour me doubly intrigued. There's one person who I think I can recognise from that description.
I can't give any specifics. That wouldn't be nice. Like I said some of these people have quite normal lives now. Some of them look back on their actions, embarrassed, they put somethings down to maturity.
Others have moved away from more right wing politics and militarism but would still structure their lives as if it was the logistics of invading a small island :)
Some (and I am sure I am not alone in saying this, we all know someone) have ended up in mental homes, some as in patients in hospitals, some have been diagnosed in later life with autism, ocd, etc. Some have gone straight edge. Others are in jail.
Drink and drugs extremes chucked into the pot! Kinda reads more like a Vietnam vet's list now!
There are some who remain completely disillusioned and still believe their own hype. Others just smoke herb pervasively.
There is a few who although well older than myself haven't changed! still live the same life...an aging With nail and I but with a darker overtone!
I think I have an idea about one lad you're talking about. Didn't see him in almost 20 years though.
Quote from: KingHostile on February 21, 2024, 11:19:49 AMI can't give any specifics. That wouldn't be nice. Like I said some of these people have quite normal lives now. Some of them look back on their actions, embarrassed, they put somethings down to maturity.
Others have moved away from more right wing politics and militarism but would still structure their lives as if it was the logistics of invading a small island :)
Some (and I am sure I am not alone in saying this, we all know someone) have ended up in mental homes, some as in patients in hospitals, some have been diagnosed in later life with autism, ocd, etc. Some have gone straight edge. Others are in jail.
Drink and drugs extremes chucked into the pot! Kinda reads more like a Vietnam vet's list now!
There are some who remain completely disillusioned and still believe their own hype. Others just smoke herb pervasively.
There is a few who although well older than myself haven't changed! still live the same life...an aging With nail and I but with a darker overtone!
Withnail and I is my favourite film ever. Slight spoiler ahead for those who haven't seen it: Did you know in the original screenplay that once 'I' leaves, Withnail heads home, drinks wine through the barrel of a shotgun, and then blows his own head off? So Withnail was more black metal than you think!
Speaking of people living more extreme lives, I grew up living right on the Cavehill (the edge of my housing estate backed up right to the edge of the 'wilderness' part of the mountain) and for decades it's been plagued with rumours of devil worshipper activity. One thing that is definitely true is that it's not uncommon for there to be fires up there at night, albeit probably just smicks acting the wank rather than any actual satanism. There was one time in particular in the late 90s though where there was a huge ring of fire on the side of the mountain up near the top, very late at night. My friend and I both thought it would be a good idea to sneak up there and see if we could see any devil worshippers (we knew the area very well having grown up playing in it). Of course we chickened out halfway up, but for that 10 or so minutes walking up a silent mountainside at midnight, through wooded areas when there could have been a satanist stepping out from behind any tree, and all this against the still recent backdrop of all the Norwegian black metal satanism, it was a terrifying experience! We crept up in dread silence, but once our nerve broke we sprinted back the whole way down!
Thats a cool story Mooncat!
Is it not all a bit hilariously juvenile?
Quote from: Yung Led Zeppelin on February 22, 2024, 10:22:29 PMIs it not all a bit hilariously juvenile?
Having worked with teenagers for the past 13 years and seeing repeatedly how they act towards each other, and in groups outwardly towards other people, how they gee and work each other up and cross boundaries, I can say unequivocally: yes, that is one of the biggest factors.
You can't really argue that it's juvenile, but that doesn't take away it's impact and power.