I've been half pondering this idea over the past week or so since revisiting Geasa's Angel's Cry and I'm either on to something, or clutching at straws. Let's see if there is a discussion to be had. I often felt in the past that it was something of a shame that an identifiable Irish black metal sound never really materialised in the 90s, while most other countries seem to have found a common thread that set them apart. Now I'm wondering if my view of the situation was a little too myopic, and that there was, in fact, a common thread that pulled certain bands together. The most obvious thing we would expect to bind Irish bands together would be a trad element, and no doubt that exists. Primordial had/have it to a degree, Cruachan of course and Mael Mordha spring to mind (or are they post 00?). Another less obvious thread that I have come to notice is the fact that certain bands from her never quite fit so easily into the black metal or doom boxes, but rather straddled those genres and added in a heavy dose of goth pomposity and grandeur as well. Think of Primordial's early material, up to around Spirit the Earth Aflame; think of Arcane Sun who I still can't really figure out how to categorise as they combined such a wide array of styles and atmospheres through their great, sprawling debut album; think of Geasa who, after their iconic BM demo, developed a more difficult to pin down style that was doomy, black and heavily gothic, with some of those trad influences in the mix as well for good measure; maybe Lunar Gate could be added to the pot with their individual take on that sort of doomy, gothy avant garde metal. There may be other bands who released demos in the 90s who combined similar ingredients to better or worse effect (direct me to them please). What about that Brigantia demo from the 90s that was acoustic BM or doom or something like that. It's one I heard on the Metal Show a hundred years ago and stuck out to my young ears as something unusual and interesting (any links available to that stuff?).
I might be scrambling a bit here, forgive me, but could we consider the mighty Transgression demo by Hexxed to have a sprinkling of these traits? They were more of a death metal proposition of course, but there were incredible moments of clean, acoustic sounding diversions with beautiful, haunting vocal harmonies not unlike Opeth. Corr Mhóna are the band, to my ear, who seem to be carrying something of that legacy (if it's not all just in my head) into the future with their seamless genre blending songwriting. There's a melancholia running through their records that evokes some of those earlier bands.
What do you think? Am I on to something or just dreaming?
Edit. Belinus never quite fully hit the mark (it might have been the recording quality rather than the songwriting) but perhaps they were operating along similar lines.
Darkest Era occasionally came close but more often than not seemed to be aiming for something more upbeat and catchy. It would have been cool to see them do more brooding stuff without the ooh aah Maideny bits. Is Ade up to anything musically these days? The Tenhi painting on the back of his leather jacket always kindled a little hope in me that he might infuse more of his own songwriting with a similar moodiness.
The Pale Fall were possibly heading into similar, not so easily defined, waters. I wonder if that project still lives.
Pretty sure Darkest Era have a new album recorded going on the updates I've seen on social media from Ade, which is good to see. But yeah, I think the Maiden and traditional metal in their DNA kind of marks them apart from the bands and vibe you're mentioning.
Generally, I think you're outlining a general time and a place sound - essentially there was a crop of good bands in the late 90s, early 2000s that you've listed who were reaching for a dark, melancholic vibe that wasn't overly indebted to any pre-existing style. I'd have to pop MB's mighty 'Dust' in there too.
But that's the thing - I think you've outlined some bands who touched on something special, but nothing especially distinct ever really emerged sound-wise. Certainly nothing that was as distinct as a 'national sound', like with Greek BM. I'd imagine we just didn't have the critical mass of bands pushing for something special. Instead we have a handful of groups who individually delivered some great stuff, but it's not really coherent.
To connect with the other thread about metal journalism - these scenes and styles are often aggregated and "defined" by certain magazines and media outlets, for better or worse. I would venture that the microscopic amount of attention being paid to the few Irish bands that were trying to push things probably didn't help.
Quote from: Eoin McLove on January 19, 2022, 11:50:26 AM
The Pale Fall were possibly heading into similar, not so easily defined, waters. I wonder if that project still lives.
There's a "newer" track on Youtube from CR, alright.
Would love to hear more from this project.
Absolutely true. Ireland was a bit of a blind spot on the Metal map in the pre- Internet years. Maybe if more attention and focus had come our way it would have encouraged more bands to slog it out. But was the Greek scene widely hailed outside of underground circles or was it a case of a small number of individuals creating a lot of music? Could that explain why the Greek sound is so instantly recognisable?
I resisted adding Mourning Beloveth to my list as they were operating within the clearly defined niche of doom death but there might be an argument for including the post-Formless material. They are still without question a doom death band, but they seem to be experimenting with a wider range of techniques.
Thread necromancy.
I've been spinning Belinus's Battlechants demo regularly over the past few weeks and, as I suspected in my post above, some great ideas are hampered by a not so great production. Still very worthwhile once you get used to it.
I pulled Mael Mórdha's Cluan Tarbh off the shelf for the car to sate my particular current appetite. I have blown hot and cold on MM over the years for different reasons but they certainly have their strong moments. Looking forward to reacquainting myself with this album as it has been a while since I've listened to it, although I had Caoineadh na nGael on in recent months, which is a very cool demo. The production works perfectly on it and reminds me at times of Spirit the Earth Aflame.
QuoteI often felt in the past that it was something of a shame that an identifiable Irish black metal sound never really materialised in the 90s
Great topic.
Though the thread is short I think we've already strayed from the initial thought though. Hexxed shouldn't be mentioned in the topic (Awesome band, and had the potential to be one of Ireland's best but I think a stretch to fit them into the discussion) or Darkest Era for that matter but to go back to the notion that an "Identifiable Irish black metal sound" never materialised in the 90's, because we didn't have the bands. How many of the bands active back then could be classed as Black Metal in the strictest sense? Primordial, Geasa, Witchammer, Belinus......?
I think bands like Cruachan, Mael Mordha Waylander etc don't fit the bill really.
If you get rid of the filter of the 90's we have had some amazing black metal bands but each are utterly unique in their own right Primordial, Sol Axis and I'd throw Altar Of Plagues (Even though they've a lot of Post Metal in there) just as a few examples but that highlight that there's not really a common thread musically or timeline wise. There's nothing there that you could coin as being a "Collectively Irish Sound"
If you want to cast the net wider we haven't really had any identifiable scenes black metal or otherwise, we've never had anything like the doom scene in the UK for example (Anathema, Decomposed, My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost etc) and that's not to rag on our own scene, I think what we have here is a scene in which everyone goes about their own individual thing, and in some ways makes things a lot more interesting.
I agree but perhaps there is something in that that is uniquely Irish. That blend of different styles mixed with a certain gloom? In possibly being overly romantic in my reasoning :laugh:
Sol Axis, Slidhr, Myrkr, Rebirth of Nefast and AOP all have their own things going on, and have deservedly won respect, but there's nothing specifically Irish about any of their sound which is why I didn't include them.
Primordial and AOP are the two most genuinely trail-blazing bands mentioned so far. AOP may not have any recognizably "Oirish" elements whatsoever, but then second wave BM didn't really have any recognizably Norwegian elements going on. We say they sound Norwegian retrospectively. So, since they were unique, not just in Ireland but in general, when they came along, maybe there is something specifically Irish about AOP, just something more difficult to characterize as such..?
I think that's a good point. Scenes can often have unifying sounds but the most important thing is quality, whatever all bands sound like. Florida DM prob as good an example or grunge - not necessarily bands who sound or perform alike, but unified by a moment in time and location. Harder to nail that when there's a much smaller sample size too.
QuoteHarder to nail that when there's a much smaller sample size too.
I was going to mention sample size then forgot. I'm not sure about that, Norway has similar population to Ireland, I think when these things happen there's an array of factors involved and an element of stars aligning.
I think the general population's attitude toward music here has prevented anything like that ever happening here, whether that be the punters attitude or medias - there's nothing that would lend it traction or to give it that spark.
Maybe worth a separate discussion but I think we've witnessed the last of any kind of movement like that to be honest. Will we ever see anything like the Grunge or Black Metal explosions again?
Quote from: Pagan Saviour on December 13, 2022, 02:17:01 PMQuoteHarder to nail that when there's a much smaller sample size too.
I was going to mention sample size then forgot. I'm not sure about that, Norway has similar population to Ireland, I think when these things happen there's an array of factors involved and an element of stars aligning.
I think the general population's attitude toward music here has prevented anything like that ever happening here, whether that be the punters attitude or medias - there's nothing that would lend it traction or to give it that spark.
Maybe worth a separate discussion but I think we've witnessed the last of any kind of movement like that to be honest. Will we ever see anything like the Grunge or Black Metal explosions again?
Very interesting thread. There seems to have always been a vibrant punk/HC scene in Ireland. I suppose lyrically they deal with issues that affect those involved both personally and socially.
It cold be a stretch to say there's a definite Irish sound on that genre.
I don't think we will ever see a mucical movement that will strike a chord ( boom boom) the way grunge, death or black metal did when those scenes exploded.
It seems that the most exciting genres are ones that are being revisited but done so with real vision and creativity.
All those scenes are swamped with bad copies but the diamonds are there as we all know.
Back to the original post Cor Mhóna seem to be a real standard bearer for a typical Irish sound without turning into a fiddley potatocore thing.
In terms of sample size I wasn't talking about national population but of good bands. Hard to group bands into a sound when they're so few and different overall.
I wasn't necessarily referring to an Irish sound as having tradition Irish music traits, it just so happens that there is an element of that too. I think that Norway produced a specifically cold sound that is identifiable, Greece was mentioned too- that has no folk element whatsoever but is instantly recognisable.
There isn't really an overall Irish sound, in my opinion.
But I think each region definitely has it's own scene or scenes.
The one common theme throughout all of them though is the level of band incest that goes on.
Dublin is the the biggest mixing pot, I think. With a lot if the scenes working away in their own circles and rarely mixing.
For want of a better description, the Invictus bands.
The whole Dublin Hardcore collective.
The regular Fibbers type bands.
Galway has always had a decent Hardcore/Punk scene. But never really gained much traction outside of the region bar a few bands.
Cork is a hive of band incest.
Plenty bands but all sharing multiple members of multiple other bands.
Up the North has a very wide overall scene that seems to have no issue at all with mixing genres and supporting all aspects.
But I don't live anywhere near up there, so that's just my opinion from a distance.
The band incest is another ongoing debate. In some ways it's great as the music is continuously being made by capable individuals but the lack of youth is astounding. God Alone are the only ones I can think of that have made a serious dent in recent times, have there been any other genuinely new young metal based acts doing anything worthwhile recently?
Quote from: Eoin McLove on December 13, 2022, 06:48:58 PMI wasn't necessarily referring to an Irish sound as having tradition Irish music traits, it just so happens that there is an element of that too. I think that Norway produced a specifically cold sound that is identifiable, Greece was mentioned too- that has no folk element whatsoever but is instantly recognisable.
I suppose what sets Ireland apart besides the trad elements that aren't prevalent in all the bands is the lyrical tone, content and overall sound. There is a certain mournfulness that the English death/doom/extreme and of the scale doesn't have.
Would somebody not from here be able to pick up on it though? I'm not sure.
For me, that melancholy was the primary strand in the '90s through to present times: Dreamsfear to Death The Leveller. Graveyard Dirt to The Pale Fall. Thy Sinister Bloom, Geasa, Waylander. All different. Did regional accents help differentiate them internationally? Would those outside of Ireland really recognise them, relate to them or care?
Then you have SCALD. The Dagda. Epoch. Misfits (not mishits) one and all exploring their own preoccupations.
Not that I find national identity a particularly powerful or relevant selling point. ANUBI is my favourite band from Lithuania. Peers like POCCOLUS and HA LELA sound nothing alike. I don't like them more or less for the shared origin. But we join the dots, looking for meaning, whether a sequence or parallel even exists.
Melancholy is it perhaps, yeah. You can't bate a bit of misery.
In terms of the Irish sound, are there many bands popular elsewhere because they are Irish and have a different sound/identity Obviously Primordial of course
Cruachan, even more so than Primordial, are popular "because they are Irish and have a different sound/identity." Most recently, I saw they played that festival in Mexico where the Pantera reunion premiered.
I would say the lack of recording studios plays into it too. Like there is maybe 3 different places a lot of Irish bands go and that definitely has some affect. And I think bands are hiding their accents less and less, some still try an American thing
Plays into what? I think the general argument here is that there isn't really an "Irish sound" in metal, whereas all bands using a small selection of studios should tend to create precisely a specific sound, e.g. the Morrisound sound. Like when people started criticizing that every recording coming out of that studio in Dublin (edit: Trackmix, couldn't recall there) sounded good... but all the same. Only problem was that, in that case, the sound in question was already quite a generic one, so didn't capture anything particularly "Irish".
Honestly the closest thing to an "Irish sound" that exists is all the young noisy post punk bands trying to rip off Gilla Band. In the metal scene, not so much at all, I don't see any unifying thread.
Beats the living shite out of some of the copycat scenes you get on the continent, I can confidently say after putting in time over there. You at least get a nice mix here, even on a bill with bands all in the same genre. People seem more confident to do their own thing here, which is good cos there's fuck-all of us.
I do think considering how small Ireland is a lot of bands have their own sound, be it Mourning Beloveth or Coscradh etc. I'm not so sure you would call it an "Irish sound" though. I remember seeing Mael Mórdha years ago and thinking they distinctly sounded Irish. So, it really is having some kind of traditional component that makes a band sound Irish.
@Eoin, what are the bands that would have ,as you said in the opening post, goth pomposity?
I'd genuinely be interested in hearing them. I know you mentioned Geasa but I'm not really hearing too much goth stuff in their sound, for me anyhow.
I was listening to some Children Of Bodom the last day and I was thinking how Sweden and Finland really have an identifiable sound.
Bands like CoB and Nighwish and Ensiferum have this real folky, mournful melodic sound and some of their riffs wouldn't sound of place on each others albums. You can nearly feel winter in their music as well which is cool.
Sweden as well has that same kind of vibe going on with the melodic death metal bands.
I'm not a fan of Primordial, bar a song here and there, but I do think they sound very Irish and I would consider heir sound a trademark Irish metal sound at this stage.
I think there is definitely an Irish sound that could be noted for influence from trad music like 6/8 rhythmic strumming, occasional trad instrumentation and Irish history/folklore influenced lyrics.
Of course bands who use it to varying degrees, with Primordial it's there but used fairly subtlety, whereas Cruachan it's very much a large selling point of the band.
I'd say its hard for bands to do it now without automatically getting compared to Primordial, I did think Mael Mhorda where able to do it while very much having their own identity.
Quote from: blessed1 on December 21, 2022, 05:12:05 PM@Eoin, what are the bands that would have ,as you said in the opening post, goth pomposity?
I'd genuinely be interested in hearing them. I know you mentioned Geasa but I'm not really hearing too much goth stuff in their sound, for me anyhow.
I was listening to some Children Of Bodom the last day and I was thinking how Sweden and Finland really have an identifiable sound.
Bands like CoB and Nighwish and Ensiferum have this real folky, mournful melodic sound and some of their riffs wouldn't sound of place on each others albums. You can nearly feel winter in their music as well which is cool.
Sweden as well has that same kind of vibe going on with the melodic death metal bands.
I'm not a fan of Primordial, bar a song here and there, but I do think they sound very Irish and I would consider heir sound a trademark Irish metal sound at this stage.
I think there's a clear goth influence on early Primordial. It may be a passenger coming in on the back of the Peace Peaceville Three elements they were inspired by or maybe it's a more direct influence. I can hear it up to, maybe, Calm Before Storm. Alan still used his old style of dramatic singing up to that point.
Arcane Sun were inspired by Fields of the Nephilim and you can hear it in the guitar tones quite clearly. The dramatic vocal delivery has elements of it as well.
Morning Beloveth were obviously influenced by Peaceville Three as well. Their sound changed with Formless and moved away from those direct influences. I'm not sure if they were taking direct influence from goth bands or not.
Geasa certainly have a goth influence on Angel's Cry. It might only be on that album that is in evidence, it is at least most prominent there. I don't know who John was influenced by in terms of goth bands but it sounds pretty clear to me that he was taking ideas from those quarters.
Playing in 6/8 will never be separable from Primordial. Must actually try writing a death metal riff in 6/8.
Quote from: Necro Red on December 16, 2022, 10:14:59 AMIn terms of the Irish sound, are there many bands popular elsewhere because they are Irish and have a different sound/identity Obviously Primordial of course
Surely Cruachan is purely due to the irish angle. All the "irish" bands making waves in the indie scene lean heavily on the Irish angle. Look at the Fontaines DC. Whole gimmick is over the top irish and dublin in particular, singer is english, mayo member and a Spaniard.
Quote from: Black Shepherd Carnage on December 16, 2022, 01:09:03 PMPlays into what? I think the general argument here is that there isn't really an "Irish sound" in metal, whereas all bands using a small selection of studios should tend to create precisely a specific sound, e.g. the Morrisound sound. Like when people started criticizing that every recording coming out of that studio in Dublin (edit: Trackmix, couldn't recall there) sounded good... but all the same. Only problem was that, in that case, the sound in question was already quite a generic one, so didn't capture anything particularly "Irish".
Yeah thats fair, you can spot trackmix a mile away, can nearly hear what guitar and bass from there is being used.